The Anglo/American - Nazi War

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Adamgerd

Bookmark1995 said:
The actions of the Nazis TTL cannot be merely described as atrocities. If they were JUST atrocities, then one can question the A4 and their harsh treatment of the Germans.

OTL, a Jewish state was created, Paris is still proud, and Poland and Russia still have lots of people.

The Nazis and their acolytes left permanent scars on Europe. There is no Jewish state, because almost all of Europe's Jews were murdered. The city of Paris is a ruin, decades after the genocide of Slavs, their numbers have still not bounced back, and the Russians and Polish have to PAY people to immigrate there.

Simply put, the Germans have gone beyond the moral event horizon, by doing things they will never, ever be able to undo.

Someone ITTL only needs to point to a picture of an empty field that once held a Ukrainian city to explain why decades later, Germans have not been forgiven.

I imagine ITTL, German kids burn their family photos, as they themselves have nothing good to they about their ancestors.
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Yeah. While I would morally disagree with the radicalism of A4 against Germany, I can't blame them and if I lived there and wasn't dead, I'd probably gladly join them given I am a Czech
 

Bookmark1995

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Adamgerd said:
Yeah. While I would morally disagree with the radicalism of A4 against Germany, I can't blame them and if I lived there and wasn't dead, I'd probably gladly join them given I am a Czech
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Well, I am Jewish, so I would certainly have little mercy for the men who slaughtered the homeland of my ancestors.
 

CalBear

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Le-Analyst said:
For the total Soviet casualties, as punishment the Germans took 100,000 Soviets/month for a five year labor term. Assuming 100,000 Soviets a month every month for 16 years, that would be 19.2 million laborers total, and assuming the 85 percent mortality rate (from update 48), that means that over 16.3 million Soviet deaths would be a result of forced labor (or more than a quarter of all civilian deaths). Is my intuition correct on this?
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Close enough for government work.
 

CalBear

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xxmagex said:
Calbear, I was reading one of Stephen Hawking's books this morning. I got to wondering, what happened to Stephen Hawking in the AANW TL, He would have turned 18 in 1960 and was in a pre-ALS stage of his health.
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His life was more or less the same. Different spouse, research assistants, etc. due to butterflies.
 

Bookmark1995

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@CalBear

What ever became of the peoples of the Caucasus and Central Asia? Were they also classified as subhuman/given to the Nazis as tribute to the Nazi war machine.

PS: I apologize for behavior last week, and I will not discuss current politics outside of designated areas.
 

CalBear

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Evertonian said:
Poland's finest drumhead court-martial, hemp rope and the nearest tree.
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Actually the WAllies, mainly the British, did everything possible to keep the Rule of Law and actual fair trials going. The Polish government in exile, and especially the Polish Army were also very much in favor of doing things as transparently as possible (hard to build a decent nation state on a pile of corpses). In most cases the evidence was so overwhelming that even OJ's lawyers would have been unable get acquittals.

Ther was a good deal of revenge killing. I actually lay out one example in the T/L.
 
Middlesex_Toffeeman

Middlesex_Toffeeman

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CalBear said:
Actually the WAllies, mainly the British, did everything possible to keep the Rule of Law and actual fair trials going. The Polish government in exile, and especially the Polish Army were also very much in favor of doing things as transparently as possible (hard to build a decent nation state on a pile of corpses). In most cases the evidence was so overwhelming that even OJ's lawyers would have been unable get acquittals.

Ther was a good deal of revenge killing. I actually lay out one example in the T/L.
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Thanks for explaining that.
 

Bookmark1995

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sloreck said:
@Bookmark1995 : I was thinking of Chaim Rumkowski as the example of the worst, OTOH you have Adam Czerniowski of the warsaw Ghetto.
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Czerniakow has become an object of sympathy for his notorious suicide, but his governance of the ghetto wasn't much different then Rumkowski's in many ways: like in Lodz, the Warsaw Ghetto had mass starvation, sweatshop labor, and brutal mistreatment by the Jewish Ghetto. I can understand why Czerniakow took the pill, but it didn't really do anything to impede the Germans.

Meanwhile the Lodz Ghetto came close than any other Jewish ghetto in not being liquidated (having outlasted the Warsaw Ghetto by over a year), so had the Soviets liberate Lodz, we might be saying something different about Rumkowski.

ITTL, have the stories of Czerniakow and Rumkowski been lost to history to the Nazis succeeding in their horrible vision.
 

Admiral Halsey

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Ok so looking back something has been kinda been bugging me ever since I realized it after rereading this for the 6th or so time.


Why did the A4 never seem to actually offer help to the Soviets at all or ever feel any kind of sympathy to Russia? Given that something around 40 million(very low estimate based on the 27 million killed OTL) at least of them should've been killed and the utter revulsion the atrocities of the Nazi's you'd think they'd have been less well seemingly mean spirited.
 

DrakaHunterofSamothrace

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Well, it kinda felt downer too when USSR collapsed on itself and the A4 turned its back on it. Would it kill you folks to fight a few more weeks after having fought the worst? Just a few tiny states?
 

sloreck

The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact pretty much guaranteed WWII. With Russia "neutralized" any military objections over going to war were quashed, the one thing the military did not want was another 2 front war. Things would probably had gone bad anyways, but the M-R Pact made the start when it did a certainty. Even had Hitler attacked when he did absent M-R, it is not unreasonable to consider might have held out longer and the UK & France done more than flail about.
 

CalBear

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bhlee0019 said:
That is their official reason. The real reason is keeping the A4 hegemony.
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No
sloreck said:
The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact pretty much guaranteed WWII. With Russia "neutralized" any military objections over going to war were quashed, the one thing the military did not want was another 2 front war. Things would probably had gone bad anyways, but the M-R Pact made the start when it did a certainty. Even had Hitler attacked when he did absent M-R, it is not unreasonable to consider might have held out longer and the UK & France done more than flail about.
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Yes.

The Soviets were given what they could be given during the war. The problem is that the Reich actually controlled everything the Soviets received. Anything they wanted, they simply took. After the Soviet surrender giving anything to the Soviets was literally like unloading it onto Hamburg's docks. After the war, there was absolutely no interest in rebuilding the USSR, most in the West considered the country to have committed suicide. The Soviets refused aid unless all their prewar territory (including their piece of Poland) was restored to them. Unsurprisingly the A4 told them to sit on it and spin.
 
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