The Anglo/American - Nazi War

[CalBear]

Is it bad that I kinda want to see some tribes of feral descendants of hardcore Nazis in those zones waiting for the day when their fuhrer will return and once again led them to glorious conquests... perhaps that's the plot of some pulp FPS ITTL...

At one point I was tempted to make an ASB thread of what if all the hardcore neo-nazis from OTL 2010s ISOTed to those zones with their personal weapons and could they have resurrect the third reich to glory again and then I realize it would have been a mass death scenario (to some rather unsympathetic people, but still in bad taste), so I didn't.

There were a very small numbers of "survivors" scraping by on wild plants and small animals. The area is large enough, and has sufficient ruins with basements and semi habitable structures. The Security Force did not bother to look for them, if they approached the Walls, well, it has already been noted that since the first Wall was completed no one gets out, regardless. The number of survivors drops every year as the diseases take their toll, surviving women become infertile, and age takes its toll. By ATL 2001 there are 20-30 left.

Almost no one has ever really suggested that the effort be made to rescue them, it isn't like they were not given literally YEARS of warning that the Walls were going to be built, were being built, were finished and would be closed off with no exit after that time. Even the Stettin revolutionaries didn't have any illusion about what sending in rescue/recovery teams would mean. The heads of various major religions occasionally call for an effort, they may as well try to call of a new Crusade to recapture the Holy Land (actually they would likely get a better response to the Crusade idea, and you could count the number of people who would respond to that without getting to four digits)

 

[Jim Smitty]

So basically everyone who got left in the Dead Zone is dead by what 2020?

 

[CalBear]

So basically everyone who got left in the Dead Zone is dead by what 2020?

Absolutely. The innermost of the Barrier Walls was completed and the exits closed ATL 1974

 

[Whiteshore]

The guard force even tries to kill any birds that try to exit. They fail more than they succeed, but it isn't from a lack of trying.

So, how much have birds exiting the Berlin dead zone successfully contributed to the spread of diseases?

 

[sloreck]

Can't answer for Calbear, but birds are not carriers for too many human diseases, the things like "bird flu" come about from human/animal proximity in agricultural settings. In theory a bird could ingest anthrax spores and pass them out through feces outside the wall, but a few random spores really aren't a problem they exist already. Absent a significant human population in the dead zone, even if you postulate weird bacterial/viral mutation without human hosts you won't select for mutations particular to humans.

 

[CalBear]

So, how much have birds exiting the Berlin dead zone successfully contributed to the spread of diseases?

Not major. Some get contaminated with anthrax spores, or take out squirrels or rats carry something, but it is fairly rare. When an outbreak of one of the biologicals breaks out everyone jumps on it extremely hard. Life expectancy in Europe, especially in parts of France and the Statelets is still far behind the A4, the Iberian Peninsula and even Scandinavia.

 

[Mare Leones]

How are German-Americans or German-British treated in their respective countries? They did not take part in any of Germany's atrocities but I would guess they are still discriminated against.

 

[Le-Analyst]

For the total Soviet casualties, as punishment the Germans took 100,000 Soviets/month for a five year labor term. Assuming 100,000 Soviets a month every month for 16 years, that would be 19.2 million laborers total, and assuming the 85 percent mortality rate (from update 48), that means that over 16.3 million Soviet deaths would be a result of forced labor (or more than a quarter of all civilian deaths). Is my intuition correct on this?

 

[President Earl Warren]

How are German-Americans or German-British treated in their respective countries? They did not take part in any of Germany's atrocities but I would guess they are still discriminated against.

My guess is that everyone goes to great lengths to forget where there ancestors came from. Their too interggated for discrimination to be a major fact of public life .

 

[SsgtC]

For the total Soviet casualties, as punishment the Germans took 100,000 Soviets/month for a five year labor term. Assuming 100,000 Soviets a month every month for 16 years, that would be 19.2 million laborers total, and assuming the 85 percent mortality rate (from update 48), that means that over 16.3 million Soviet deaths would be a result of forced labor (or more than a quarter of all civilian deaths). Is my intuition correct on this?

Probably slightly less. Some of those who survived one trip to Germany were later rounded up and sent back again. So probably more like 15 million give or take

 

[xxmagex]

Calbear, I was reading one of Stephen Hawking's books this morning. I got to wondering, what happened to Stephen Hawking in the AANW TL, He would have turned 18 in 1960 and was in a pre-ALS stage of his health.

 

[DrakaHunterofSamothrace]

Hello, first post of the forum and everything.

I SPECIFICALLY registered after reading this. Where can I have more of this gentleman's writings?

Me:

around first updates: Hmm reasonable, I mean Hitler could avoid lack of winter gear, and North Africa. Right? He'd still get beate-

>reads atrocities worsening

"Hmm"

>Stalingrad falls

"Ok"

>Reparations like youths given to the Minotaur

"Damn. Sad."

>Poland and Jews exterminated

"Pfft. Wolfenstein knockoff."

>Japan gets non-nuke beatdown to oblivion

"I don't like where this is going." - Jontron

>USSR collapses so hard it becomes a slave hell of tributes and banditry

"STOP" - Jontron

>Western landing attempts

"Here we go..."

>Heer disbands, Quasi fanatical cult SS all over with ramshackle mix units bonanza

"Wtf Hitler?" (Worst Part IMHO, He simply would not do that or rather than disbanding would simply slap SS labels all around)

>Then the invasion begins in earnest. With all the terrorism and modern horrors.

It keeps getting worse. It keeps getting worse. It keeps getting worse. It keeps getting worse. It keeps getting worse.

IT. KEEPS. GETTING. WORSE

And it got worse.

At least it finished well enough.

 

[Adamgerd]

How were the Eastern European collaborators treated? Guessing very harshly

 

[sloreck]

Stalin had a phrase for many who toed the Soviet line in western countries, "useful idiots". Some collaborators of "impure" racial stock might be "Aryanized", the rest once their usefulness was outlived they get a train ticket to the death factory of choice. OTL there were Jewish "leaders" whose motivation was not trying to save what they could, but rather collaborating to save their skins. It did them no good in the end.

 

[Bookmark1995]

SPICE JOURNALISM: Vacationing in the City of Darkness

-snip-

This contribution of yours was...pretty bittersweet in a way. Despite Paris being gone, it still lives on the hearts of the French people, who bend the rules just to see the ruins.

If I were in charge of dealing with Hitler's tomb, I would've kept it and built a dance hall above it so that people could literally dance on Hitler's grave.

I have an even better idea then that: why not build a public toilet over it.

He already answered it 3 years ago:

Remember that even if you COULD deny the Holocaust, you would have to somehow explain where the dead tens of millions of Jews and Slavs ended up. You'd also have to explain what became of those cities that once existed in Russia and Poland.

OTL, Himmler, when he tried to set himself up as a postwar leader, had the gall to claim that his gas chambers were only used to burn diseased bodies, and that the conditions in the concentration camps were reasonable.

But Hell, these Nazis TELEVISED their destruction of Paris, TELEVISED their destruction of the Eiffel Tower, and happily blamed the British for the deaths of the royal family. They happily gloated about their atrocities.

Trying to deny that the Nazis were bad is like trying to violate the laws of physics at this point.

How were the Eastern European collaborators treated? Guessing very harshly

Stalin had a phrase for many who toed the Soviet line in western countries, "useful idiots". Some collaborators of "impure" racial stock might be "Aryanized", the rest once their usefulness was outlived they get a train ticket to the death factory of choice. OTL there were Jewish "leaders" whose motivation was not trying to save what they could, but rather collaborating to save their skins. It did them no good in the end.

Well, lets read about the fate of Chaim Rumkowski, who traded many of his fellow Jews to the Nazis: he was instantly beaten to death by either Jews from Lodz, or by Sonderkommandos. The fate of those who collaborated, and didn't have Allied protection, was probably even less kind then that.

*****

I wonder if ITTL, there is like a whole industry in France devoted to the sale of Paris memorabilia: pictures of the Eiffel Tower and other Paris landmarks, books set in pre-war etc.

To many French people, Paris' represents a time when France was the center of a respected empire, and not an impoverished, diseased backwater still rising from the ashes of the Second World War.

Similarly, I wonder if ITTL Germans collect Weimar Republic memorabilia. Yeah, the Weimar Republic was chaotic and poor, but at least in that time period, they weren't a bunch of despised pariahs, and there was an incredible period of cultural freedom.

Berlin's utter desolation, more than anything else, would come to represent the utter shame of Germany.
​

 

[Adamgerd]

Also even though the TL is depressing, can't really fully blame the A4 for their hostility to Germany given its atrocities, also I like how the TL definitely doesn't shy away from Nazi war crimes

 

[Bookmark1995]

Also even though the TL is depressing, can't really fully blame the A4 for their hostility to Germany given its atrocities, also I like how the TL definitely doesn't shy away from Nazi war crimes

The actions of the Nazis TTL cannot be merely described as atrocities. If they were JUST atrocities, then one can question the A4 and their harsh treatment of the Germans.

OTL, a Jewish state was created, Paris is still proud, and Poland and Russia still have lots of people.

The Nazis and their acolytes left permanent scars on Europe. There is no Jewish state, because almost all of Europe's Jews were murdered. The city of Paris is a ruin, decades after the genocide of Slavs, their numbers have still not bounced back, and the Russians and Polish have to PAY people to immigrate there.

Simply put, the Germans have gone beyond the moral event horizon, by doing things they will never, ever be able to undo.

Someone ITTL only needs to point to a picture of an empty field that once held a Ukrainian city to explain why decades later, Germans have not been forgiven.

I imagine ITTL, German kids burn their family photos, as they themselves have nothing good to they about their ancestors.

 

[Middlesex_Toffeeman]

How were the Eastern European collaborators treated? Guessing very harshly

Poland's finest drumhead court-martial, hemp rope and the nearest tree.

 

[Bookmark1995]

Poland's finest drumhead court-martial, hemp rope and the nearest tree.

And that was considered the pinnacle of professionalism. Many people most likely were...shot trying to escape or resist arrest.

 

[Middlesex_Toffeeman]

And that was considered the pinnacle of professionalism. Many people most likely were...shot trying to escape or resist arrest.

I feel that it depends whom exactly the collaborators happen to be tried by. Allied military forces / Polish government-in-exile? A semblance of a fair trial and being very quickly strung up from the nearest tree. Polish resistance? Repeatedly falling down stairs in a bungalow, if you know what I mean.