WI: Cymbro-Saxon?

[cmakk1012]

Maybe a better (somewhat ironic) comparison would be the classification of OTL English as a Germanic language—the extensive French influence on it has made it highly divergent but its core remains Germanic.

TTL Brythain would be Celtic but with such extensive Latin influence as to dramatically diverge it from the Celtic mainstream

EDIT: I’d also argue that a religious Schism wouldn’t necessarily have to take place to cause a rejection of Latin. Political tensions could be enough—have whoever rules Rome (or maybe Gaul?) demand tribute and vassalage and then even try to invade Britain. When this is repulsed it sets a precedent of bad blood between Britain and the Continent

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

IRL Pelagianism was dead really in Britain due to Germanus of Auxerre, doubt alt King Arthur could stop this. And he arrives in 429 AD about like 20 years before king Arthur is meant to have lived.

Would Germanus be welcomed in a Britannia that had managed to stabilise and forge its own identity after the empire cut it loose?

 

[piratedude]

Would Germanus be welcomed in a Britannia that had managed to stabilise and forge its own identity after the empire cut it loose?

Germanus was in britain around 430. Arthur didn't stabilize britain until 495, and didn't unify the Brythons until 503.

Although i feel like writing the britons as already feeling abandoned in 430 (because they were in most practical ways), Rome itself probably thought that they'd come back once things settled down a bit. Its also debated just how effective Germanus was at repressing pelagianism.

 

[IamtheEmps]

Yeah, French is clearly Romance. Among the Romance languages, it clearly has the most Germanic influences. But we can see a clearly a direct line from Vulgar Latin to modern French.

This is true but I feel that a lot of the time we have a tendency to like to group stuff because of origin even if they are radically different

EDIT: I’d also argue that a religious Schism wouldn’t necessarily have to take place to cause a rejection of Latin. Political tensions could be enough—have whoever rules Rome (or maybe Gaul?) demand tribute and vassalage and then even try to invade Britain. When this is repulsed it sets a precedent of bad blood between Britain and the Continent

Would Germanus be welcomed in a Britannia that had managed to stabilise and forge its own identity after the empire cut it loose?

What everyone should remember here is that at the time the Britons are still nominally "Orthodox". This means that if they want to they could merely go hard into Caesaropapism and change the liturgy into Kymbric, something the Orthodox have no problem with, they probably can. I mean they just need to ask for Autonomy or Autocephaly and the Pope can't really do much about it. This would probably lead to a church lead out of Bath, if that is the largest city Arthur holds.

Similarly it seems more likely that Arthur would co-opt Germanus to cosy up to the mainland. I mean he can just say he is a vassal to whatever Emperor there is and there isn't much they can do to invade. This makes it unlikely for Pelagianism to survive, the Kymbric Church might be more Pelagian, in counting prayers etc, but it is unlikely to reject original sin.

 

[The Professor]

This is true but I feel that a lot of the time we have a tendency to like to group stuff because of origin even if they are radically different

But French isn't radically different enough not to be classed as Romance.
English is probably the most extreme from its origins but linguistically it's still Germanic enough to be classed as Germanic.

 

[Analytical Engine]

Welsh was fairly heavily Latinised as it was IOTL - not just from Latin itself either, but also from French words, much like English was.

Breton has been heavily Latinised through French influence itself. It is still classed as a Celtic language.

It would be like the difference between Old English and Middle English - substantial, but not enough to warrant it being labelled as a different branch of the Indo-European language family.

 

[Icedaemon]

@IamtheEmps
The thing about that though is that the romanization of Britain was less thorough than the rest of western europe, despite having been under the Romans since the first century. Most of the island was a Roman frontier, always threatened by barbarians, and a frequent source of usurpers. The most romanized parts where in the South East, a place that has now become ruled and at least partially settled by germans.

And as mentioned above by someone else, Latin was a mostly used in urban areas and by elites. Enough to leave an impact for sure, but in this scenario not enough to make it a romance language.

And also, technically there aren't more celtic language's in this scenario anyway, it's actually one short, with "cornish" and "welsh" merging into a single language. I'm not sure Breton would even survive in this scenario, with fewer elites fleeing to Armoricia, and likely a few returning to Britain, in which case that's 2 fewer celtic languages.

One could argue that there might well be enough distinct dialects in Britain that might themselves be almost separate languages. England itself has a lot of different variants OTL. With the less Roman influenced Coelings in the north, the Germanic peoples absorbed and integrated into the most Roman influenced groups in the southeast and the moderately Roman-influenced but potentially closely trading with Gaelic people, there's already the impetus for three distinct dialects in OTL England. This is without debating whether the Picts might survive in this timeline, possibly being integrated into an earlier united Great Britain. Similarly, the Bretons might see less settlement but in return see more support from their kinsmen across the Channel Mor Bretannek.

 

[Fabius Maximus]

The whole 'free will' and 'personal responsibility' thing that Pelagianism implies would also improve the chances of Britain becoming a centre of learning and philosophy fairly early on, I am thinking.

I don't see why; IOTL there's no evidence that Pelagius and his followers were more keen on philosophy than anyone else was.

What everyone should remember here is that at the time the Britons are still nominally "Orthodox"

Huh? The east/west schism was still centuries in the future at this point, and the British Church had far more in common with the rest of the Latin west that it did with Constantinople.

 

[piratedude]

Huh? The east/west schism was still centuries in the future at this point, and the British Church had far more in common with the rest of the Latin west that it did with Constantinople.

I think he meant orthodox doctrinally, and even now both churches call themselves the orthodox(correct doctrine) and catholic (universal) church.

 

[piratedude]

Here's a rough map of the trade lanes/routes at the time of the POV character in 803

Edit: I'd like to note a few things. i tried to make the lines of the routes porportional to the volume of trade they see. So most of the Anglish 'nations' see relatively little trade, the exception being Lunden, as it's been developed more by Pendraigs and the ældarmenn of the city.

Ireland sees a lot of trade, the most common commodities being (unfortunately, but historically) slaves.

But Brythain is the powerhouse, Particularly the capital and chief port of Kaerloîu (aka Gloucester), and it's twin Kaerkorin (Cirencaster) which sits on the intersection of several Roman roads, most prominently the repaired Fôssy (fosse way)

 

[IamtheEmps]

Huh? The east/west schism was still centuries in the future at this point, and the British Church had far more in common with the rest of the Latin west that it did with Constantinople.

I think he meant orthodox doctrinally, and even now both churches call themselves the orthodox(correct doctrine) and catholic (universal) church.

Yeah I meant that because the schism hasn't happened yet, and the idea of independent churches exists, it is not impossible that the Church in Britain declares itself Autocephalous. Meaning it will have different Canon law, and a different head of the Church. Similarly, because the standardisation of the Canon under Gratian hasn't happened yet it seems more possible.

 

[cmakk1012]

So there are no butterflies on the rest of Europe ITTL? I assume European history would diverge soon after this point at least—after all, it’s VIKING TIME, and if they are repulsed and never settle the Danelaw that will have Continental effects

 

[FleetMac]

@piratedude nice trade map. I noticed Lunden's link to the Low Countries/Saxony and had a question; given the smaller Anglian footprint on Brythain ITTL, does this mean there's more Germanic settlers on the mainland? It might be too peripheral to the core TL (not to mention contending with German and Flemish influences), just pondering the idea of an Ingvaeonic state on the Continent with ties to the Anglish (e.g. a surviving Frisia) ending up a trade partner with the Aurlings

 

[piratedude]

So there are no butterflies on the rest of Europe ITTL? I assume European history would diverge soon after this point at least—after all, it’s VIKING TIME, and if they are repulsed and never settle the Danelaw that will have Continental effects

I'm not totally sure of how big or fast the butterflies ought to be on the mainland, but I have think that the Carolingians are still a thing. The Pendraigs have a bit of a rivalry with them, as they have fought (successfully) to keep the Dux of Armoricia in their own sphere of influence since the Merovingians ruled, and they don't like that the pope named that damn barbarian emperor in the west, a title they've tried to claim several times, but have been denied. Luckily, Charles has avoided outright war by declaring the current Âlt Rî of the Brythônys, Leûn Pendraig, as the Caesar to his Augustus.

And yes, the Norse will begin their raids in earnest soon. So far there have been a handful of minor, probing ones, but they don't stand out that much as they haven't yet targeted those juicy hibernian style monasteries.

 

[piratedude]

@piratedude nice trade map. I noticed Lunden's link to the Low Countries/Saxony and had a question; given the smaller Anglian footprint on Brythain ITTL, does this mean there's more Germanic settlers on the mainland? It might be too peripheral to the core TL (not to mention contending with German and Flemish influences), just pondering the idea of an Ingvaeonic state on the Continent with ties to the Anglish (e.g. a surviving Frisia) ending up a trade partner with the Aurlings

Thanks! And yes, while the Frisians are vassals to Charles, they remain somewhat independent, much like Armoricia is to Brythain

 

[FleetMac]

Sweet!

Getting to the language piece again, my personal preference (for what it's worth) is that British and Medieval Latin won't replace Brythoneg, but influence it to the degree OTL Norman changed English. To wit, the grammar/phonology/essential daily vocabulary would remain P-Celtic, but more advanced/complex words and orthography (to a degree) would be Romance. Thus you could have fairly technical dialogue be semi-intelligible to a Romance or affluent Anglo-Germanic speaker, but a casual working-class excerpt would go over said person's head (Maltese is like that too, a Semitic dialect overladen with Italian elements). It might even be described as the inverse of Brithenig, a Romance-looking Celtic language instead of a Celtic-looking Romance one.

EDIT; This could also help differentiate Coeling language a la OTL Scots/Northern English to Southern dialects by retaining more non-Latinate vocabulary and pronunciation. I do wonder what would become of consonant mutations in Brythoneg though. On one hand, it's an OTL staple of Celtic languages with morphological utility. OTOH it's a pain to account for in dictionaries AIUI, and Latin influence might not brook its survival. Perhaps it's a spoken element only, or dialectal/vulgar in nature?

 

[cmakk1012]

I'm not totally sure of how big or fast the butterflies ought to be on the mainland, but I have think that the Carolingians are still a thing. The Pendraigs have a bit of a rivalry with them, as they have fought (successfully) to keep the Dux of Armoricia in their own sphere of influence since the Merovingians ruled, and they don't like that the pope named that damn barbarian emperor in the west, a title they've tried to claim several times, but have been denied. Luckily, Charles has avoided outright war by declaring the current Âlt Rî of the Brythônys, Leûn Pendraig, as the Caesar to his Augustus.

Ooooh, cool. I like the Carolingians still being a thing—Western Europe would be completely unrecognizable without them. That’s interesting that the Aurlings have tried to be acclaimed as Western Emperor. I wonder if that will remain a more contested and significant title for longer ITTL?

Also, how would a Carolingian-Aurlingian war go if it were to break out?

And yes, the Norse will begin their raids in earnest soon. So far there have been a handful of minor, probing ones, but they don't stand out that much as they haven't yet targeted those juicy hibernian style monasteries.

Hoo boy, that’ll be intense. You might see the Saxon nations of Britain conquered by the Vikings, only to then be pushed out by the Brythainians.

 

[piratedude]

Also, how would a Carolingian-Aurlingian war go if it were to break out?

Right now? It'd be a a tough fight with little gained by either side besides renewed hatred. As long as Brythain can keep it's troops supplied they can go toe to toe with them. Which would be difficult for them to maintain in a long continental war.

That said, the Aurlings have a major advantage that the Frank's don't, namely that they don't break apart their kingdom like idiots just so the royal heirs can all have a piece. That's something that the lesser princes in Brythain do, but Artos, the only surviving son of Arthur after the strife of Camlan, established agnatic primogenitor for the Aurling Luîth(clan)

 

[The Professor]

Sweet!

Getting to the language piece again, my personal preference (for what it's worth) is that British and Medieval Latin won't replace Brythoneg, but influence it to the degree OTL Norman changed English. To wit, the grammar/phonology/essential daily vocabulary would remain P-Celtic, but more advanced/complex words and orthography (to a degree) would be Romance. Thus you could have fairly technical dialogue be semi-intelligible to a Romance or affluent Anglo-Germanic speaker, but a casual working-class excerpt would go over said person's head (Maltese is like that too, a Semitic dialect overladen with Italian elements). It might even be described as the inverse of Brithenig, a Romance-looking Celtic language instead of a Celtic-looking Romance one.

EDIT; This could also help differentiate Coeling language a la OTL Scots/Northern English to Southern dialects by retaining more non-Latinate vocabulary and pronunciation. I do wonder what would become of consonant mutations in Brythoneg though. On one hand, it's an OTL staple of Celtic languages with morphological utility. OTOH it's a pain to account for in dictionaries AIUI, and Latin influence might not brook its survival. Perhaps it's a spoken element only, or dialectal/vulgar in nature?

I suspect TTL Brythoneg will have reduced mutations. Probably nasal and a mixed one that is indicated by adding <h> or doubling the consonant - with orthographic pronunciation differences depending on dialects, ie the spelling doesn't quite match the pronunciations.

 

[piratedude]

@FleetMac , @The Professor,

I was thinking that the official Brythônik wouldn't develop mutations (partly because latin partly because I don't want to bother) but that it will creep into a few dialects, namely areas in the north that are close to 'Cumbria', and those people who interact the most with the Irish.


Also, I've been working out the titles and names I want to use. Tell me what you think

Naming system

Baptismal name>Lûith (clan) name>Family name

Arthur>Auriad>Pendraig

Noble titles

Aurling titles

Nobilissimus Caesar Occidentalis

Imerâdôr o Brythain (not recognized by the Coelings or Brynicians)

Âlt Rî o Brythônys

Bretwalda of Englisc​

Subordinate titles

Pendefig o X Lûith ~ Dux Armoricia ~ Cyning of Engle/Seaxa/Iute Cynn​