WI: Cymbro-Saxon?

[piratedude]

Also, how would a Carolingian-Aurlingian war go if it were to break out?

Right now? It'd be a a tough fight with little gained by either side besides renewed hatred. As long as Brythain can keep it's troops supplied they can go toe to toe with them. Which would be difficult for them to maintain in a long continental war.

That said, the Aurlings have a major advantage that the Frank's don't, namely that they don't break apart their kingdom like idiots just so the royal heirs can all have a piece. That's something that the lesser princes in Brythain do, but Artos, the only surviving son of Arthur after the strife of Camlan, established agnatic primogenitor for the Aurling Luîth(clan)

 

[piratedude]

@FleetMac , @The Professor,

I was thinking that the official Brythônik wouldn't develop mutations (partly because latin partly because I don't want to bother) but that it will creep into a few dialects, namely areas in the north that are close to 'Cumbria', and those people who interact the most with the Irish.


Also, I've been working out the titles and names I want to use. Tell me what you think

Naming system

Baptismal name>Lûith (clan) name>Family name

Arthur>Auriad>Pendraig

Noble titles

Aurling titles

Nobilissimus Caesar Occidentalis

Imerâdôr o Brythain (not recognized by the Coelings or Brynicians)

Âlt Rî o Brythônys

Bretwalda of Englisc​

Subordinate titles

Pendefig o X Lûith ~ Dux Armoricia ~ Cyning of Engle/Seaxa/Iute Cynn​

 

[piratedude]

are these titles like all of the titles for the Aurlings?

The Aurling titles are all the ones held by the ruling Aurling, while the subordinate titles are ones that he reserves the right to bestow or withdraw at his pleasure. He generally gives it to the eldest son of the last bearer, although there have been times when he hasn't.
The exception is the Dux Armoricia, who while accounted for in the hierarchy, is chosen by the Senate of Armoricia. It just so happens that they elect the candidates the Aurling backs...

 

[piratedude]

As regards names I would suggest Baptismal Family Clan as the trinominal system: Arthur Pendraig Auraidh = Arthurus Pendraconis Aureatorum = Arthur of the House Pendragon of the Clan Aureates (Auraidh = Euraidd = Aur(e)atus)

That sounds great!

The Auring title would just be 2: Caesar of the West & Imperator of Brittania/Britannia. Bretwalda is effectively a translation of the latter, it's a reduction of Breten Anwealda meaning Broad/Britain Sole-Ruler and became a common translation for Rex Britanniae.
The Coelings would probably just recognise the Imerador as High King, sometimes as just HK of the south, sometimes as HK of all the Britons (Aurlings and Coelings alike), depending on relative strength and recent wars.

Hmm I was intending that the Brythônys would view Bretwalda as a separate title, given by the English, with Imerâdôr/Âlt Rî being the one they gave Arthur several years later, but we can do both(sorta). They used to be separate titles in official documents, but by the 8th century they became the same title, just in different languages. I like your idea about how the Coelings view the title btw!

 

[piratedude]

your TL precludes them being strong enough to separate themselves and provide a High King over just themselves!

Wasn't Ælle already Bretwalda in 490? I had planned on him giving the title to Arthur after his total defeat and subsequent capture at mt.badon. i mean I'll still have him there even if the title is anachronistic/posthumus, but if it is then I need to change the titles of the anglo saxon leaders the Aurlings control too.

@Icedaemon a restricted tannistry sounds good to me, i just forgot about it while researching because the welsh never seemed to have used it.

 

[piratedude]

Brythônik Law

Succession Law

• To be heir to the crown, one must:
  • Be a legitimate son
    
    
  • Be of sound mind and body
    
    
  • Be at least 16 YO
    
    
  • Be of the Auriadh lûith
• Those eligible are to be ranked into three groups
  • The sons of the Âlt Rî,
    
    
  • The brothers and nephews of the Âlt Rî
    
    
  • The avuncular first cousins of the Âlt Rî

1. All the Pendefigs of the Brythônys shall convene a senâdh under the auspices of the Archbishop of Kaerloiû.
   
   
2. The names of the Âlt Rî’s sons are called out in order of age, and they or one they have appointed shall present his claim in turn, and answering the questions of the senâdh.
   
   
3. Then the sons shall depart, and the senâdh shall argue and vote among themselves until one of the sons has a majority.
   
   
4. Repeat 2 & 3 for the other two groups.
   
   
5. When there is one candidate from each group, the senâdh shall vote between them, and whoever gets 3/4ths of the vote shall be the sole heir to the Âlt Rî.

 

[piratedude]

.

Welsh law also acknowledged a bastards right as much as a true born son.

It Acknowledged a recognized bastard's right, not all bastards.

@IamtheEmps , @Fabius Maximus

With reguards to the Diocese of Britannia, im thinking that Âlt Rî Arthur got the pope make the bishop of Kaerloîu an Archbishop, and then his son Artos successfully petitioned pope vigilius to have the archbishop made the Primate of Britannia, as well as autonomous. However, Justinian denounced his attempt to be declared emperor of the west, and ever since the Byzantines have put pressure on the papacy to prevent giving the Archbishop autocephaly. And although Charles the Great has made Âlt Rî Leûn Caesar, he's followed the Byzantine's example with regards to the Archbishop

 

[IamtheEmps]

A question occurred to me, with a stabilized Brythain and Church, would the "celtic church" (ie: hiberno-scotish missions) still form? If so, would it be prominent enough for the Archbishop to call a synod to bring it inline with Brythain?

More likely if a Brythonik Church is formed Hibernia and Scotland will be brought under it, especially due to the fact that a Archbishop in Gloucester is essentially a permanent Papal nuncio.

If the Hiberno-Scottish Missions are brought under an Autonomous Brythonik Church, the "Celtic" Church would be basically fully recognised. The reason for this being that the "Celtic" Church was basically a set of "deviant" practices that fell outside of the usual Roman church life, some of these like Irish Penance were eventually adopted by the Roman Church in the 1200s. Under an Autonomous Church such practices would have been recognised as a part of the Liturgy and allowed. This is also coupled with the fact that generally even at this time the Irish were quite pious, and so likely would have produced more priests, especially if Brythain has a focus of war.

Similarly, in my view the difference of the "Celtic" Church is overstated, at the time most differences were in calculation of easter, which would likely be brought in line with Rome, the Method of private confession rather than public trial, as was traditional, a different tonsure, and a form of harsh pilgrimage, where you left your home area forever, voluntarily. Of these the Confession, Tonsure, and Pilgrimage would likely survive, and the easter would likely be changed to be mainline. Some have accused Insular/Celtic Christianity of being Judiazing which appears to be true in places, but I dont think it can be taken to be fully seriously, due to the pain involved in cutting the foreskin.

So more likely the "Celtic" Church would be formalised by this rather than crushed.

 

[piratedude]

Made a rough outline of the Insular Church's hierarchy

1. The Autonomous Archbishop of Kaerloîu (Gloucester), Primate of Britannia, Caledonia, and Hibernia.
   1. Bishoprics of Britannia
      1. Archbishop of Lindkolon (Lincoln)
      2. Bishop of Lunden (London)
      3. Bishop of Caerlun (Lancaster)
      4. Bishop of Dineidyn (Edinburgh)
      5. Bishop of Durham
      6. Bishop of Penrhyn (Stranraer)
   2. Bishoprics of Caledonia
      1. Archbishop of Dun Ád (Dunadd)
      2. Bishop of Scuin (Scone)
   3. Bishoprics of Hibernia
      1. Archbishop of Liathdroim (hill of Tara)

Edit: the insular church has a lot of influence in the northern Frankish church, and in Armoricia especially, but dejure they're seperate, and the Carolingians have been doing their best to enforce that separation.

 

[piratedude]

I would split it along Roman Lines

I like this idea in general, though there are some problems with the North in your set up
If the diocese of Caledonia is everything North of hadrian's wall, that puts the Bishops of Rhinnydd and Gododdin under a Dal Riatan Archbishop. Rhionydd basically only exists because Dal Riata is propping them up, so they won't complain too much, but the Gododdins won't like it one bit. The Picts and Scoti are basically their mortal foes, they won't stand for having one overthem.
And yet, if the Caledonian boarder is whatever North of Antonine's wall, it makes the archbishopric of Lindkolon HUGE, when compared to their nominal head in Gloucester.

So to solve this, the area between the walls will be the diocese of Valentia, with the Archbishop in Dineidyn.
Map time! Archbishoprics are marked with a yellow dot

 

[piratedude]

Heyyy, servers are back up!

So i got to thinking that i should talk more about Brythain's situation at home. As previously mentioned, the organization of Bythain is thus:
Âlt Rî, the Pendefigs (princes) of the various luîth(clans) and Cynnings of the three Englisc "tribes" below him, and below them are dirprûy(deputies) and great thegns.

The pendefigs select the next Âlt Rî in the senâdh, and in turn, each time a pendefig or cynning dies, the Âlt Ri chooses a new one from their clan/tribe (usually sons, but not always).

The dirprûy and great thanes are basically the lieutenants of their prince/king. They are selected by the prince/king with the Âlt Rî's approval.

 

[piratedude]

I also worked a bit on the story proper while the servers were down. Tell me what you guys think

803 Anno Domine, Eve of Christ’s mass(Julian calander)


Charles had to admit to himself that he was having a good time. He had been nervous to go where his father bid him. He was to go to Brythain; to cross that godforsaken sea, to go into the dragon’s lair, to bow before the Drakeseat, and spend a whole year there. He knew personally just how willey that dragon could be, and had pleaded to stay. But his father and emperor said goeth, and goeth he did.


The beginning of his stay in Brythain had been spent in fear. He imagined hired knives behind the curtains, poised to strike him unawares. So he had his guards stand watch as he slept, within and without his chambers. He feared too the cunning of poisons, thus he ate and drank only that which his host partook of. But after months without even one attempt on his life, and the dragon being nothing less than a gracious host, he was forced to admit that his one time foe thought more highly of him than he did likewise. So this Christmas eve, he had taken on the expenses of the feast, as recompense for his ill behaviour. As usual, Leûn took it in stride, and directed him to his chamberlain, an englisc man by the name of Eadgar.


Haw-wine, honey-wine, and brown beers were brought from all over Brythain. Hogs and cows, geese and deer were to be butchered, and even fruits from Córdoba had found their way into the larder. Truly, it was a spread worthy of emperors. And that wasn't even accounting for the expense of the performers and decorations! All told, he felt he had spent enough to feed and garland an entire kingdom. Thinking back to the celebrations in Rome, after his father was made Augustus, he shuddered at what the bishop of Rome must have spent.

 

[piratedude]

Maybe they go all Hapsburg and marry them into the empire

Certainly, in fact the current queen (in the POV) is irish, from the Eógonachta, who rule Mumhan and currently have the High Kingship (not that it means much), though the Uí Néill dispute their claim

Is there a reason why you choose black crosses? I have no info to say that black crosses aren't historical, they just don't look very aesthetic to me

I just through it together quickly tbh

 

[piratedude]

Generally, I've split the Anglo-Saxons into three groups.

Those in the Southeast are generally referred to as the dûîreinwir (easterner, lit. East-men)
by the Brythônys, though they themselves don't think of being one people. They've settled down and are "Brythonizing", mixing with the more dominant Brythonic culture while retaining some uniquely Germanic customs and such. The Aurlings plan is to "civilize" them and then bring them into the fold, which will be marked by letting their Kynnings to participate in the senâdh(the Senate, which elects the next Âlt Rî). That's still off a generation or two in the POV.

Those in the Northeast are the Anglonik, a regular concern for the the Brythôns and Cumbrians alike. They were the last of the Anglo-Saxons to convert to Christianity, doing so only three generations ago (officially at least), and only after being decisively beaten in battle. They're generally viewed as half tamed barbarians by the Brythônys.

Thirdly, there are the Seisnik, a derogatory Brythônik name for those Germanic peoples that are slaves and bondsmen in Brythain. The term is used irrespective of whether they actually are descendants of Saxon tribes, or even if they're Anglo-Saxons.

 

[piratedude]

So I've been having a think, and I have a few thoughts I want your opinions on.

Brythain is divided among the Lûith and Cynn (British clans and their A-S equivalent), the leaders of whom are chosen by the Âlt Rî. Those leaders select deputies with the Âlt Rî's approval. As has been said previously

The clans are further divided by class; Nobles (from whom the leaders are picked), freemen (who often serve as deputies), bondsmen, and slaves. Rough ratio I'm thinking of is 1:8:10:4. The bondsmen and slaves are split fairly evenly between freemen and nobles.

The clan leaders and their deputies are responsible for the administration of law and justice. A bondsman can appeal a deputy's decisions to the leader, and freemen can further appeal to the Âlt Rî himself, if he can bear the time and expense.

Clan leaders are also responsible for ensuring that the freemen are armed and trained for military service for at least a few months in a year, and bondsmen at least one day in a year.

For the military, I was thinking that near every man are mounted infantry, and that the Brythônys specifically keep small and strong ponies to do accomplish this (like Exmoor or Dartmoor), setting aside large chunks of land for the herds.
I was also thinking that a rather large portion of their army could be archers. I don't know if the 7th-8th century are too early for "welsh" longbows to become a common unit, though I don't think it's beyond their ken to do it. And given that armor is fairly uncommon for the majority of the armies in this period, they should be reasonably effective. and even against mail, a powerful enough bow with the right head can get through.

 

[Droman]

I imagine that a Briton army would have a heavy focus on archers, light cavalry, slingers and spearsmen in any eventually. The Angles, Jutes and Saxons would provide heavy infantry and ships, of course. As regarding a strong cavalry component... You might want to perhaps include something of a Roman or Sarmatian nature to flesh it out. Or perhaps you could take a step beyond, and merge the archers, slingers and cavalry into missile cavalry?

 

[piratedude]

So before this thread is completely dead, I want to brainstorm a bit more about the Insular/Celtic church.

I was thinking that instead of tracing their origin to Joseph of Arimathea, they claim st. Aristobulus as their founder.
Joseph wasn't connected to Britain until the 11th century or so, while Aristobulus is reportedly the first bishop of Britain. Aristobulus would have been ordained by st.Peter, then sent to Britain.

I'm thinking giving most of the myths attributed to Joseph to Aristobulus in general, such creating the chapel at Glastonbury, and his walking stick turning into a miraculous tree.

Actually, I was kinda thinking of making said tree, the Glastonbury thorn, even more prominent.
The tree flowers twice a year, around Christmas, and again around easter. I'm thinking that it could play a part in the easter controversy.
Every bishopric gets their own whitethorn tree, from which the bishops' staff is made, except the Archbishop of Kaerloîu (Gloucester), who's staff comes from the Glastonbury thorn.

 

[piratedude]

That vid actually functions well as a segue to the situation in the north.
A quick reminder map:

The Kingdom of Bernicia (Anglisc: Beornice Rīce), is the last independent germanic kingdom in the isles. Bordering generally hostile neighbours, it has taken quite a bit of military acumen, and no small measure of fortune, to stay that way. Their "capital" is in Dunham (OTL Durham), given it's relative size and security. Eforwic is technically more fortified, but the city has changed hands between them and Brythain too often to truly be considered secure, and Bebbanbruh, while their cultural heartland, has little natural defense against their most feared foes, the Gododdins. Despite their territorial similarities, they are not the same as OTL Northumberia, as the Angles' attempt to form a kingdom in Deira were thwarted by Âlt Rî Andras (the 3rd Âlt Rî of Brythain, and grandson of Arthur) , thus they didn't have another kingdom to unite with.

The kingdom of Rheged. They have a proud history, and their ruling family are the Ap'Urien Coîl (Sons of Urien the Coîling). As you might have noticed by their name, they are influenced by their powerful neighbours/allies/trade partners, the Brythônys and the Irish. Rheged used to be much larger and more powerful, but not long after Urien died, he split his kingdom among his sons, as per the old brittonic custom. The son who ruled the southern portion joined Brythain, while the northern son remained independent. Though the split was peaceful, and relations between the kingdom and Brythain as a whole have been and remain prosperous, there's always been a lingering animosity between the northern and southern Ap'Uriens. Their capital is the 2nd largest trading post on the irish sea, Caerlun (Lancaster).

The Kingdom of Rhinnydd. Or the kingdom of the Rhinns, who's capital is in Penrhyn (the first/chief Rhinn, OTL stranraer), is a Dal Riatan puppet state, Although once it was the mighty kingdom of Altclud. A combination of Gododdin expansion and Dal Riata's interests in the region has produced their current state. Culturally and linguistically they remain Cumbric, it's just that politically the Irish hold them by the balls, literally. The high king of Dal Riata has the Son of Rhinnydd's king locked up in the fortress of Dùn At.

 

[piratedude]

Decided to have fun writing a story bit. Enjoy


The ship sliced through the waves with a honed edge. One moment rising with the sea, the next diving. Each return to the sea shook them, but the ash keel refused to be broken. That didn't mean much for Hrafen. He knew the ship was built strongly, he helped put it together, but his belly lurched with the crashing of the waves on the beams.

Three days. Three days since last he saw the last rocks of his home dip below the Horizon; Three days of nothing but old fish, hard bread, and stale beer; three days spent rowing and tacking into a west wind. A three day voyage he was told would only take a day and a night.

Hrafen spared a sidelong glance to their leader, his shadowed face was fixed on the horizon, eyes keen for some sign. Hrafen’s mind churned in apprehension. He had joined on for the promise of glory and easy riches. Glory he cared little about, what glory ought a carpenter’s son expect? No, all the glory would go to the jarls. But easy riches could fill a mans stomach with meat, could keep a hearth burning, and could give his dear Kelda the fine broaches and bands she deserved. More and more, however, he felt as though he would return empty handed, forced to abandon this raid because Njorđr would not grant them favorable seas.

The sound of flapping wings broke his gloomy thoughts, and he looked up to spy a pair of black birds, his name sake, circling their small fleet of three ships. He gazed in awe as they flew with grace, working the breeze with more ease than their ships ever could. He followed their flight as best he could while rowing, watching on as they flew. Before long they needed a rest, and they alighted upon the spars of his ship.

Instantly the headwind that had been resisting their travels calmed, and everyone took notice, even their shadow-faced leader took pause, his solitary eye fixing on the birds as the world itself seemed to come to a halt. In the silence he heard the ravens croak thrice before once again taking to the air. The wind too resumed, this time as a strong easterly gale. A loud cheer rose up from every man as the oars were hauled in, and the canvases let out to catch the favorable wind.

Hrafen took heart from this favorable omen, surely a sign from Ođinn that they would conquer this day. It was not long before he could once again see a shore; a wide beach, and a lone building with nary a wall to keep his party out.

 

[piratedude]

The Codex Eboraci is perhaps one of the most amazing literary survivals of the early medieval period. Written some time in the 8th century by an anonymous author, the book is a compilation of numerous prose stories and poetic verses of Anglonic myth, and appears to be a work that attempts to form a coherent (canonical if you will) body of the pagan beliefs of the Anglisc people. The Eboraci is frequently compared to its later Norse cousins, the poetic and prose Eddas.

The book is dedicated to its patron, named Ósric. If the Eboraci was written before 746 AD, it is likely that the patron is King Ósric of Beornice, the last pagan ruler in Britain, and the Codex was part of his attempts to codify the traditional faith of his people. If this is the case, then it is the most substantial literary work written by the pagans themselves, rather than by their christain descendants.