@piratedude are these titles like all of the titles for the Aurlings? But I think if my idea of them declaring themselves to be autocephalous, possibly by codifying their canons earlier, as a part of state building by Arthur, could allow for less mutations, due to a standardisation of the language by having a written bible.

Also on names, why not use the Roman system, of Praenomen, Nomen, and Cognomen, so Baptismal, Family/Clan, and Post name. This could be modified to Given Name, Family Name, and Baptismal Name. But this obviously depends on where the system is coming from.
 
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are these titles like all of the titles for the Aurlings?
The Aurling titles are all the ones held by the ruling Aurling, while the subordinate titles are ones that he reserves the right to bestow or withdraw at his pleasure. He generally gives it to the eldest son of the last bearer, although there have been times when he hasn't.
The exception is the Dux Armoricia, who while accounted for in the hierarchy, is chosen by the Senate of Armoricia. It just so happens that they elect the candidates the Aurling backs...
 
I was thinking that the official Brythônik wouldn't develop mutations (partly because latin partly because I don't want to bother) but that it will creep into a few dialects, namely areas in the north that are close to 'Cumbria', and those people who interact the most with the Irish.
Mutations are common to the Insular Celtic languages so keeping them in some form is more realistic than dropping them. Having 2 with one being more orthographical in the standard dialect seems a reasonable compromise.

As regards titles you've got a bit of duplication going on. The Auring title would just be 2: Caesar of the West & Imperator of Brittania/Britannia. Bretwalda is effectively a translation of the latter, it's a reduction of Breten Anwealda meaning Broad/Britain Sole-Ruler and became a common translation for Rex Britanniae.
The Coelings would probably just recognise the Imerador as High King, sometimes as just HK of the south, sometimes as HK of all the Britons (Aurlings and Coelings alike), depending on relative strength and recent wars.

As regards names I would suggest Baptismal Family Clan as the trinominal system: Arthur Pendraig Auraidh = Arthurus Pendraco Aureatus / Arthurus Pendraconis Aureatorum = Arthur of the House Pendragon of the Clan Aureates (Auraidh = Euraidd = Aur(e)atus)
 
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As regards names I would suggest Baptismal Family Clan as the trinominal system: Arthur Pendraig Auraidh = Arthurus Pendraconis Aureatorum = Arthur of the House Pendragon of the Clan Aureates (Auraidh = Euraidd = Aur(e)atus)

That sounds great!

The Auring title would just be 2: Caesar of the West & Imperator of Brittania/Britannia. Bretwalda is effectively a translation of the latter, it's a reduction of Breten Anwealda meaning Broad/Britain Sole-Ruler and became a common translation for Rex Britanniae.
The Coelings would probably just recognise the Imerador as High King, sometimes as just HK of the south, sometimes as HK of all the Britons (Aurlings and Coelings alike), depending on relative strength and recent wars.

Hmm I was intending that the Brythônys would view Bretwalda as a separate title, given by the English, with Imerâdôr/Âlt Rî being the one they gave Arthur several years later, but we can do both(sorta). They used to be separate titles in official documents, but by the 8th century they became the same title, just in different languages. I like your idea about how the Coelings view the title btw!
 
I thought the actual POD was far before Charlemagne's rise to power? That said, I can still see the Karlings becoming major players albeit perhaps not doing quite as well and perhaps not successfully invading pagan Saxony.

Rather than primogeniture, might there be a narrowed version of Tanistry? As in: letting the noble families have their say on who should be the Âlt Rî, but limiting the options to the sons and grandsons of previous kings, or somesuch?

Primogeniture is overused and inevitably leads to incompetent kings. Tanistry might be more of an Irish thing, but adopting a similar idea should not be unthinkable for other Britons.
 
That sounds great!



Hmm I was intending that the Brythônys would view Bretwalda as a separate title, given by the English, with Imerâdôr/Âlt Rî being the one they gave Arthur several years later, but we can do both(sorta). They used to be separate titles in official documents, but by the 8th century they became the same title, just in different languages. I like your idea about how the Coelings view the title btw!
Thing is, there can't be an "Overking of the English" as you intend in TTL. The Germanic tribes are too disparate and there settlement wasn't really exclusive ethnically by intent (even if that was the result). OTL Bretwalda was used to refer to the overking of the lands south of the Humber and then became synonymous with "overking of Britain" which included the Welsh kingdoms. ITTL the Angle and Saxon tribes will see Arthur as the Overking of Britain and name him accordingly, thus will be synonymous with his claim as sole Dux Britanniarum, Comes Britanniarum, et Comes Littoris Saxonici per Britanniam. Now the 3rd title is something that can be worked with if we mutate to mean command over the incoming tribes: Comes Littorum Anglici et Saxonici, Count of the Angle and Saxon Shores, but Arthur's High Kingship is based on ruling all Britannia and the Angle and Saxon Kings won't see themselves as separate from that; your TL precludes them being strong enough to separate themselves and provide a High King over just themselves!
I thought the actual POD was far before Charlemagne's rise to power? That said, I can still see the Karlings becoming major players albeit perhaps not doing quite as well and perhaps not successfully invading pagan Saxony.

Rather than primogeniture, might there be a narrowed version of Tanistry? As in: letting the noble families have their say on who should be the Âlt Rî, but limiting the options to the sons and grandsons of previous kings, or somesuch?

Primogeniture is overused and inevitably leads to incompetent kings. Tanistry might be more of an Irish thing, but adopting a similar idea should not be unthinkable for other Britons.
The Germanic kingships evolved a similar custom to tanistry as the role was elective in origin; the rise in noble lineages meant that kings became elected/selected/confirmed from among the previous king's kin, often in line with his will/wishes, and meant that the best candidate was usually the eldest son. Compare the early AS kings of Wessex and England with the Holy Roman Emperors and early Kings of Denmark.
 
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your TL precludes them being strong enough to separate themselves and provide a High King over just themselves!
Wasn't Ælle already Bretwalda in 490? I had planned on him giving the title to Arthur after his total defeat and subsequent capture at mt.badon. i mean I'll still have him there even if the title is anachronistic/posthumus, but if it is then I need to change the titles of the anglo saxon leaders the Aurlings control too.

@Icedaemon a restricted tannistry sounds good to me, i just forgot about it while researching because the welsh never seemed to have used it.
 
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Brythônik Law

Succession Law
  • To be heir to the crown, one must:
    • Be a legitimate son

    • Be of sound mind and body

    • Be at least 16 YO

    • Be of the Auriadh lûith
  • Those eligible are to be ranked into three groups
    • The sons of the Âlt Rî,

    • The brothers and nephews of the Âlt Rî

    • The avuncular first cousins of the Âlt Rî
  1. All the Pendefigs of the Brythônys shall convene a senâdh under the auspices of the Archbishop of Kaerloiû.

  2. The names of the Âlt Rî’s sons are called out in order of age, and they or one they have appointed shall present his claim in turn, and answering the questions of the senâdh.

  3. Then the sons shall depart, and the senâdh shall argue and vote among themselves until one of the sons has a majority.

  4. Repeat 2 & 3 for the other two groups.

  5. When there is one candidate from each group, the senâdh shall vote between them, and whoever gets 3/4ths of the vote shall be the sole heir to the Âlt Rî.
 
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Welsh laws forbade heirs who were disabled in some way from standing for the succession, including maimed, malformed or blinded as conditions. Maybe incorporate that I the successsion?

Welsh law also acknowledged a bastards right as much as a true born son.
 
Yeah I meant that because the schism hasn't happened yet, and the idea of independent churches exists, it is not impossible that the Church in Britain declares itself Autocephalous. Meaning it will have different Canon law, and a different head of the Church. Similarly, because the standardisation of the Canon under Gratian hasn't happened yet it seems more possible.

A Church can't just declare itself autocephalous; autocephaly has to be granted, either by an Ecumenical Council, or by whichever bishop is supervising that Church.
 
Wasn't Ælle already Bretwalda in 490? I had planned on him giving the title to Arthur after his total defeat and subsequent capture at mt.badon. i mean I'll still have him there even if the title is anachronistic/posthumus, but if it is then I need to change the titles of the anglo saxon leaders the Aurlings control too.
While Ælle had imperium it's not clear he was labelled Bretwalda at that time, seems to have been retroactively applied.
Edit: you know what, I think I'll change it anyway. No Cynings for the Englians, they'll have Great Thegns
No need to change from cyning, the tribes recognised underkings and thegn essentially meant servant to the king.

(Sorry for all the nitpicking!)
 
Welsh laws forbade heirs who were disabled in some way from standing for the succession, including maimed, malformed or blinded as conditions. Maybe incorporate that I the successsion?
I did, hence "sound of mind and body"

And no problem about the nit picking! Its needed
 
More thoughts on the succession law- I would suggest widening it to include 2nd cousins. In fact I would suggest it's divided into groups of degree of kinship. So noone greater than 6 degrees.
The groups would then be:
1st degree - sons
2nd degree - grandsons, brothers
3rd - nephews, uncles
4th - great nephews, first cousins, great uncles
5th - sons of first cousins, sons of great uncles
6th - grandsons of first cousins, second cousins, sons of great granduncles.
 
Bit too complicated, imo. Keep it to three degrees of royal kinship but not direct kinship. Sons of current or prior kings, then grandsons and then great-grandsons.

This means you have cross-generational contenders in the same degree and create fresh politics when one line is slow falling out of a more prestigious degree.

a bit like Frankish proximity of blood that.
 
A Church can't just declare itself autocephalous; autocephaly has to be granted, either by an Ecumenical Council, or by whichever bishop is supervising that Church.

This is true, however, what can the Pope do about it in the 700s. My point was if they declare themselves independent and then do the liturgy things the Pope will likely have to accept it.
 
Bit too complicated, imo. Keep it to three degrees of royal kinship but not direct kinship. Sons of current or prior kings, then grandsons and then great-grandsons.

This means you have cross-generational contenders in the same degree and create fresh politics when one line is slow falling out of a more prestigious degree.
Sons, grandsons, and great grandsons of kings only excludes sons of great granduncles from my list.
We're talking predominately male line here since females would tend to leave the clan on marriage.
Sons and grandsons of kings might work as that would include first cousins though sons of first cousins would be excluded and they are likely to be of an age to be king given how generations can work.
a bit like Frankish proximity of blood that.
That's what degree of kinship is.
 
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Welsh law also acknowledged a bastards right as much as a true born son.

It Acknowledged a recognized bastard's right, not all bastards.

@IamtheEmps , @Fabius Maximus

With reguards to the Diocese of Britannia, im thinking that Âlt Rî Arthur got the pope make the bishop of Kaerloîu an Archbishop, and then his son Artos successfully petitioned pope vigilius to have the archbishop made the Primate of Britannia, as well as autonomous. However, Justinian denounced his attempt to be declared emperor of the west, and ever since the Byzantines have put pressure on the papacy to prevent giving the Archbishop autocephaly. And although Charles the Great has made Âlt Rî Leûn Caesar, he's followed the Byzantine's example with regards to the Archbishop
 
With reguards to the Diocese of Britannia, im thinking that Âlt Rî Arthur got the pope make the bishop of Kaerloîu an Archbishop, and then his son Artos successfully petitioned pope vigilius to have the archbishop made the Primate of Britannia, as well as autonomous. However, Justinian denounced his attempt to be declared emperor of the west, the Byzantines have put pressure on the papacy to prevent giving the Archbishop autocephalous. And although Charles the Great has made Âlt Rî Leûn Caesar, he's followed the Byzantine's example with regards to the Archbishop

Yeah so having the Church be Autonomous means that the Language will be more impervious to change, as it will result in a standardised Kymbric Liturgy. Also where is Kaerloiu?
 
Kaerloîu is OTL Gloucester. The Latin name was Glevum, the welsh name is caer gloyw, or loyw, which in Brythônik is rendered Kaerloîu. The english of this TL probably call it loycaester, or if they barrow more from latin, glecaster
If possible with place names could you give the Brythonik and the English, just for clarity of Geography, thanks.

But yeah that seems like a good place to place the capital.
 
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