WI: Cymbro-Saxon?

[piratedude]

If possible with place names could you give the Brythonik and the English, just for clarity of Geography, thanks.

But yeah that seems like a good place to place the capital.

No problem

A question occurred to me, with a stabilized Brythain and Church, would the "celtic church" (ie: hiberno-scotish missions) still form? If so, would it be prominent enough for the Archbishop to call a synod to bring it inline with Brythain?

 

[IamtheEmps]

A question occurred to me, with a stabilized Brythain and Church, would the "celtic church" (ie: hiberno-scotish missions) still form? If so, would it be prominent enough for the Archbishop to call a synod to bring it inline with Brythain?

More likely if a Brythonik Church is formed Hibernia and Scotland will be brought under it, especially due to the fact that a Archbishop in Gloucester is essentially a permanent Papal nuncio.

If the Hiberno-Scottish Missions are brought under an Autonomous Brythonik Church, the "Celtic" Church would be basically fully recognised. The reason for this being that the "Celtic" Church was basically a set of "deviant" practices that fell outside of the usual Roman church life, some of these like Irish Penance were eventually adopted by the Roman Church in the 1200s. Under an Autonomous Church such practices would have been recognised as a part of the Liturgy and allowed. This is also coupled with the fact that generally even at this time the Irish were quite pious, and so likely would have produced more priests, especially if Brythain has a focus of war.

Similarly, in my view the difference of the "Celtic" Church is overstated, at the time most differences were in calculation of easter, which would likely be brought in line with Rome, the Method of private confession rather than public trial, as was traditional, a different tonsure, and a form of harsh pilgrimage, where you left your home area forever, voluntarily. Of these the Confession, Tonsure, and Pilgrimage would likely survive, and the easter would likely be changed to be mainline. Some have accused Insular/Celtic Christianity of being Judiazing which appears to be true in places, but I dont think it can be taken to be fully seriously, due to the pain involved in cutting the foreskin.

So more likely the "Celtic" Church would be formalised by this rather than crushed.

 

[piratedude]

More likely if a Brythonik Church is formed Hibernia and Scotland will be brought under it, especially due to the fact that a Archbishop in Gloucester is essentially a permanent Papal nuncio.

If the Hiberno-Scottish Missions are brought under an Autonomous Brythonik Church, the "Celtic" Church would be basically fully recognised. The reason for this being that the "Celtic" Church was basically a set of "deviant" practices that fell outside of the usual Roman church life, some of these like Irish Penance were eventually adopted by the Roman Church in the 1200s. Under an Autonomous Church such practices would have been recognised as a part of the Liturgy and allowed. This is also coupled with the fact that generally even at this time the Irish were quite pious, and so likely would have produced more priests, especially if Brythain has a focus of war.

Similarly, in my view the difference of the "Celtic" Church is overstated, at the time most differences were in calculation of easter, which would likely be brought in line with Rome, the Method of private confession rather than public trial, as was traditional, a different tonsure, and a form of harsh pilgrimage, where you left your home area forever, voluntarily. Of these the Confession, Tonsure, and Pilgrimage would likely survive, and the easter would likely be changed to be mainline. Some have accused Insular/Celtic Christianity of being Judiazing which appears to be true in places, but I dont think it can be taken to be fully seriously, due to the pain involved in cutting the foreskin.

So more likely the "Celtic" Church would be formalised by this rather than crushed.

Does that mean that the church in Ireland, and Caledonia, would also have been under him? If so, Neato

 

[IamtheEmps]

Does that mean that the church in Ireland, and Caledonia, would also have been under him? If so, Neato

Most likely, at this time most church jurisdictions where determined by Geography/Logistics.

 

[piratedude]

Made a rough outline of the Insular Church's hierarchy

1. The Autonomous Archbishop of Kaerloîu (Gloucester), Primate of Britannia, Caledonia, and Hibernia.
   1. Bishoprics of Britannia
      1. Archbishop of Lindkolon (Lincoln)
      2. Bishop of Lunden (London)
      3. Bishop of Caerlun (Lancaster)
      4. Bishop of Dineidyn (Edinburgh)
      5. Bishop of Durham
      6. Bishop of Penrhyn (Stranraer)
   2. Bishoprics of Caledonia
      1. Archbishop of Dun Ád (Dunadd)
      2. Bishop of Scuin (Scone)
   3. Bishoprics of Hibernia
      1. Archbishop of Liathdroim (hill of Tara)

Edit: the insular church has a lot of influence in the northern Frankish church, and in Armoricia especially, but dejure they're seperate, and the Carolingians have been doing their best to enforce that separation.

 

[The Professor]

Made a rough outline of the Insular Church's hierarchy

I see it more as

1. The Autonomous Archbishop of Kaerloîu (Gloucester), Primate of the Britannic Isles (primate over the primates)
   1. Bishoprics of Britannia
      1. Archbishop of Lindkolon (Lincoln), Primate of Britannia
      2. Other bishops
   2. Bishoprics of Caledonia
      1. Archbishop of Dun Ád (Dunadd) Primate of Caledonia
      2. Other bishops
   3. Bishoprics of Hibernia
      1. Archbishop of Liathdroim (hill of Tara) Primate of Hibernia
         
      2. Other bishops

 

[piratedude]

I see it more as

1. The Autonomous Archbishop of Kaerloîu (Gloucester), Primate of the Britannic Isles (primate over the primates)

So chief primate? Doesn't that make him a defacto Patriarch? Not that i don't like it if so, but that does add a different twist to the position

 

[The Professor]

So chief primate? Doesn't that make him a defacto Patriarch? Not that i don't like it if so, but that does add a different twist to the position

Being an Autonomous Archbishop already does that. OTL creating an Archbishop of Lichfield was an attempt to resolve who in England/AngloSaxonKingdoms was superior, Archbishop of York primate of northern Britain or Archbishop of Canterbury primate of southern Britain. This was still being argued even after the Conquest, so much so that there were attempts to create an Archbishop of the West and Scotland didn't get it's own AB until the late 1400s.

 

[IamtheEmps]

I would split it along Roman Lines:

1. The Autonomous Archbishop of Kaerloiu (Gloucester) and Britannia Prima, (Southwest of England, Wales, and Cornwall), and Primate of the Isles
   1. Bishoprics of Britannia Secunda (North and Centre of England)
      1. Archbishop of Lindkolon (Lincoln)
      2. Et al
   2. Bishoprics of Maxima Caesariensis (London, East Anglia, Sussex)
      1. Archbishop of Lunden (London)
      2. Et al
   3. Bishoprics of Caledonia
      1. Archbishop of Dun Ad (Dunadd)
      2. Et al
   4. Bishoprics of Hibernia
      1. Archbishop of Liathdroim (Hill of Tara)
      2. Other Bishops
   5. Other Bishops in Britannia Prima

This is based on this map [N.B. Flavia Caesariensis, is folded into Britannia Secunda, maybe a few border changes but the rest holds].

I think with this structure it more closely follows other Autonomous Churches, where as they aren't self governed they will have a most senior Bishop, but he won't be supreme. How Autonomy works is normally, this varies based on the agreement of Autonomy, but normally the highest Bishop is appointed, and then the subordinate bishops are chosen by the Primate. This basically means that the Insular Church is more similar to a formalised permanent Papal Nuncio, which would fit your tid bit of Canon.

Similarly, while @The Professor made many more Primates, historically the Catholic Church has used Primate to mean someone who can Crown a monarch, and someone who can call National Synods. In this context I think the Aurlings would jealously guard the right to control Kingship and as a result Sovereignty, probably seeing themselves as "Primates" of the Isles. Similarly, National Synods would likely control liturgy and excommunication of Bishops. This being powers I doubt Kaerloiu would willingly give up.

Finally, on titles. Because of the Prestige of being the Primate, I believe that the Archbishop would likely claim to be Archbishop of not just a city but of a region, this being his canonical region, and he would possibly not call himself of Britannia if only not to offend the other Archbishops.

Edit: Having done more research this isn't beyond the wit of man even inside the Roman Church because of sui iuris which is a church that runs itself to a certain extent, and is synonymous with autonomous. The sui iuris Churches are mainly the Eastern Catholics, but I could see that in this context it is possible and could easily make sense.

Edit 2: On the map, Hadrian's wall would be the border for Caledonia.

 

[FleetMac]

Mutations are common to the Insular Celtic languages so keeping them in some form is more realistic than dropping them. Having 2 with one being more orthographical in the standard dialect seems a reasonable compromise.

I think you could get away with the soft mutation as being allophonic to the normal spelling but not represented in writing (which several Romance languages sorta do via sandhi/liaison), with nasals showing up in both. Would certainly help keep Brythonik "regular" relative to other Celtic tongues.

I'm really digging the Brythons' Romanized naming convention @piratedude since it embodies the theme of retaining Roman influence without being fully Latinized, similar to OTL Netherlands IMO. I'm debating on trying to develop some language samples for shits 'n giggles, if for no other reason than to ascertain the Celtic-Latin vocabulary ratio and if syntax follows one style or another (again, shades of OTL Old English/West Germanic->Modern English).

EDIT: I wonder what effects Brython's status would have on the Goidelic languages. We saw upthread that Pictish will somewhat merge with Goidelic dialects, evidence of a future alt-Alba methinks. Oddly enough, it seems the number of Celtic languages is going to shrink, but what languages there are will be MUCH healthier than OTL.

Any thoughts?

 

[Fabius Maximus]

This is true, however, what can the Pope do about it in the 700s. My point was if they declare themselves independent and then do the liturgy things the Pope will likely have to accept it.

He can excommunicate them, which is quite a big deal in an age when people thought that schismatics all went to Hell. Most likely, if the Church in Britain does want to become autonomous, they'd lobby the Pope and try and get him to grant them official autonomy, rather than just go their own way without asking anyone.

 

[IamtheEmps]

He can excommunicate them, which is quite a big deal in an age when people thought that schismatics all went to Hell. Most likely, if the Church in Britain does want to become autonomous, they'd lobby the Pope and try and get him to grant them official autonomy, rather than just go their own way without asking anyone.

While a declaration is a bit extreme but if the Aurlings start making archbishops and being Caesaropapist, they can potentially get Justinian or whoever to allow them to be sui iuris.

 

[piratedude]

I'm debating on trying to develop some language samples for shits 'n giggles, if for no other reason than to ascertain the Celtic-Latin vocabulary ratio and if syntax follows one style or another (again, shades of OTL Old English/West Germanic->Modern English).

Well i certainly won't complain if you do, saves me the headache. Though I'll need to clarify the sounds of u and û.
U=/ʊ/
Û=/uː/

 

[piratedude]

they can potentially get Justinian or whoever to allow them to be sui iuris.

Yeah Justinian doesn't like the Aurling at all actually. He put his foot down to prevent autocephaly, along with denouncing Artos' moves towards Being declared emperor. They got away with the autonomy/sui juris because justinian was, how you say, "under the weather"

To clarify, the pope at the time is the one who gave Gloucester autonomy and primateship over all the isles

 

[RPW@Cy]

.


It Acknowledged a recognized bastard's right, not all bastards.

Another interesting quirk of Welsh law was that the testimony of a woman naming a man as the father of her child was given greater legal weight than that of a man denying paternity, so men could be forced to recognise bastards against their will. Note this was a one time deal only, if the man managed to prove he wasn't the father anyhow she didn't get to name someone else - presumably on the grounds she'd proven she'd slept with enough men that she couldn't know for sure...

With reguards to the Diocese of Britannia, im thinking that Âlt Rî Arthur got the pope make the bishop of Kaerloîu an Archbishop, and then his son Artos successfully petitioned pope vigilius to have the archbishop made the Primate of Britannia, as well as autonomous. However, Justinian denounced his attempt to be declared emperor of the west, and ever since the Byzantines have put pressure on the papacy to prevent giving the Archbishop autocephaly. And although Charles the Great has made Âlt Rî Leûn Caesar, he's followed the Byzantine's example with regards to the Archbishop

Autocephaly was never a Roman thing, you're more likely to get Constantinople to recognise it to annoy Rome I would have thought. Oh and if we're going full Arthuriana, then the head of the British church is surely going to be at Avalon

Kaerloîu is OTL Gloucester. The Latin name was Glevum, the welsh name is caer gloyw, or loyw, which in Brythônik is rendered Kaerloîu. The english of this TL probably call it loycaester, or if they barrow more from latin, glecaster

Gloucester is either a translation of or direct borrowing of the Welsh name - "Caer Loyw" = "Shining Fort", "Chester" is the English equivalent of Caer, hence "Glow Chester". They would very likely do something similar here.

 

[piratedude]

Autocephaly was never a Roman thing, you're more likely to get Constantinople to recognise it to annoy Rome I would have thought.

I figured that its still fairly early in church history so i think it wasn't precluded in the 500s yet. Though by the time of POV, its still definitely something the Aurlings want, but the papacy definitely wont give it without being forced to. Luckily for the pope, theres an entire continent between them.

Gloucester is either a translation of or direct borrowing of the Welsh name - "Caer Loyw" = "Shining Fort", "Chester" is the English equivalent of Caer, hence "Glow Chester". They would very likely do something similar here.

Im sure i must have read that, but just forgot, I'll keep it in mind.

if we're going full Arthuriana, then the head of the British church is surely going to be at Avalon

You mean Inys Avallac? No, thats the private chaple/hospital/school/cemetery of the Aurling kings. In fact, the Aurlings have built up a wall around it and diverted the near by river to turn it into a proper island, just to make it more private. Plus its not that far from their ancestral home of Kamelon, just a few miles SE.

 

[IamtheEmps]

Autocephaly was never a Roman thing, you're more likely to get Constantinople to recognise it to annoy Rome I would have thought.

I would contend this is wrong, atm while it is difficult to determine many of the sui iuris churches are essentially autocephalous. This has been the case since the first formation of those churches. Rather more accurately Rome, hasnt allowed itself to give up power.

I figured that its still fairly early in church history so i think it wasn't precluded in the 500s yet. Though by the time of POV, its still definitely something the Aurlings want, but the papacy definitely wont give it without being forced to. unLuckily for the pope, theres an entire continent between them.

TBH If you have a synod of Whitby, that is larger, and earlier, it is entirely possible that in a Caesaropapist effort the Aurlings say that the maturity of the Church, i.e. its age, and the distance from it to Rome means that it should Rule itself sui iuris. From Justinian's perspective it is quite useful. Firstly, it robs the British of a Patriarch, i.e. they cant crown themselves Emperors, and secondly, it creates a division in the Western Church. This second part is useful for him as it allows him to break up Rome's vast hinterland, while also breaking the Aurlings from being able to cast themselves as fully "Roman", and as a result from being able to claim to protect the faith/pope. On the Aurling side this is seen from a Caesaropapist perspective that Kaerloiu is easier to control than Rome, and it gives them control of the liturgy, which will be useful in enforcing bureaucracy, due to common language. Finally, it also gives them a Primate to crown themselves with, which will confer more legitimacy than an Archbishop or Bishop, as they can point out only their Archbishop is from Rome.

 

[piratedude]

I would split it along Roman Lines

I like this idea in general, though there are some problems with the North in your set up
If the diocese of Caledonia is everything North of hadrian's wall, that puts the Bishops of Rhinnydd and Gododdin under a Dal Riatan Archbishop. Rhionydd basically only exists because Dal Riata is propping them up, so they won't complain too much, but the Gododdins won't like it one bit. The Picts and Scoti are basically their mortal foes, they won't stand for having one overthem.
And yet, if the Caledonian boarder is whatever North of Antonine's wall, it makes the archbishopric of Lindkolon HUGE, when compared to their nominal head in Gloucester.

So to solve this, the area between the walls will be the diocese of Valentia, with the Archbishop in Dineidyn.
Map time! Archbishoprics are marked with a yellow dot

 

[IamtheEmps]

@piratedude

Yeah that seems cool I would suggest however with London's diocese you might want to make the border be down to Winchester, as that will increase the Briton Hinterland. Because atm London is very Saxon, which might make it harder to control, if bishops are being chosen from the Kaerloiu.

Also don't go too hard into the balkanisation just because the Catholics and Orthodox have anathemised "National" churches which means they run churches based on areas, rather than language etc. This would likely apply even back then.

 

[piratedude]

Also don't go too hard into the balkanisation just because the Catholics and Orthodox have anathemised "National" churches which means they run churches based on areas, rather than language etc. This would likely apply even back then.

Understood, though there are a couple legitimate reasons the wider church would accept these boarders. One being that Lincoln was just too big, relative to it's status, otherwise. another being that the Brythônys have precedence over the Caledonians, seeing as they've been christian for much longer, and actually part of the Empire.

Privately though, the Aurlings don't want to rock the boat too much. Even if the Gododdins don't recognize the Âlt Rî as Imerâdûr from time to time, they wouldn't dare go against the church. hence why they want autocephaly, to go full caesaropapism. For now though, they'll have to settle for "helping" the primate choose the various subordinate bishops.

Fixed the map btw View attachment 377228