A more realistic Peshawar Lancers
- Thread starter Hawkeye
- Start date
First, have Russia be extremist Orthodox Christian rather than Satanist. Have them interpret the Fall as God smiting a sinful people.
Next, I doubt smokeless powder and automatic weapons would have been unknown even by 2025. Gatlings existed since 1860s. Maxim was not far off.
Third, Some sort of USA should have survived, perhaps entirely invading Mexico and colonizing that a la Angrezi Raj to India. I completely agree with what one review once said, that Stirling is dancing in the ruins of post apocalyptic USA.
Next, I doubt smokeless powder and automatic weapons would have been unknown even by 2025. Gatlings existed since 1860s. Maxim was not far off.
Third, Some sort of USA should have survived, perhaps entirely invading Mexico and colonizing that a la Angrezi Raj to India. I completely agree with what one review once said, that Stirling is dancing in the ruins of post apocalyptic USA.
I agree completely. Stirling seems to think that 99% of the USA poulation lived on the two coasts, with a few survivors in Deseret. The US particularly in the South would have survived. (maybe with a revival of the CSA, given the weakening of the North, If anything, equatorial countries like Brazil should have come through relatively stronger as well. That might have had a slave-holding Empire of Brazil flirting with the South Africans.
Dunno about the Confederate States of America. Chicago, Philadelphia (I think), Pittsburg, a lot of major Northern cities will survive. You might be right though.
I'd also like to say that I doubt heavier than air flight would be unknown forever. Someone would have to stumble on the secret of airfoils. Given that that is a dream of mankind, to fly like birds, some fanciful kite builder or carpenter or shipbuilder would experiment with something like the Wright Flyer.
Valdemar II
Banned
Primary a lot more civilisation in Europe and North America would survive, most people was farmers at the time, and they would readopt farming a few years down the line, instead of staying hunter-gartners, of course most states would still break down and leave these two contignents a patchwork of independent villages/cantons, through they would likely reunite into greater units (more Switzerlands than Netherlands or Denmarks) along the lines. A few state would likely survive in southen Europa, likely some which has migrated downward, I could see Austria survive in the Balkans and North Italy, while Italy (or at least splinter states) would likely survive in the south.
Spain would at the very least survive in Cuba and Puerto Rico. While Angola becomes the new Portugal.
Norway is interesting because it has a merchant navy big enough to evacuate it entire population, so we would like see them migrate to the southen cone, together with other Scandinavians, while not enough to directly take over Argentina, it would give Argentina major Scandinavian cultural traits.
The French could easily evacuate enough to come in majority in Algeria, while major Italian migration would do the same thing to Tunis.
Continental Greece will likely be completely overrunned by the South Slavs, while the Ottoman Empire survive in Anatolia and the Crescent.
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I am also not sure why Stirling seems to believe that wooden sail boats will survive as serious naval vessels. In the appendixes to the novel, he writes that improvements to sails make it possible to sail into the wind and outrun a steamboat, but wouldn't armor protection outweigh that? You remember the ironclad battles of the CSS Virginia in the War of Northern Agression. Ripped right through the wooden Northern ships. I'd think that wooden ships would go out of naval dominance after the 1950s at least.
I always wondered why the Spanish and Portuguese didn't survive. The Spanish could easily have made it to Morrocco, and they might even spin it as "Finishing the Reconquista", while Portugal could easily flee to one of their colonies, probably Angola/Mozambique, maybe a Portuguese union with the Kingdom of the Congo which was already a christian kingdom that the Portuguese supported?
I also always liked the idea of Austrians/Germans fleeing into the balkans. I think a really interesting scenario is these survivors go the route of Tony Jones's Puritan world and call themselves the Holy Roman Empire to appease the slavs and greeks. The *HRE would be in a perfect position to claim Rome and Constantinople(or Konstanburg, or whatever they decide to call it) and could come to see themselves as the true successors to the Roman Empire and the only viable rulers of Europe. This creates another villain besides the Ultra-Orthodox Russians as the *HRE would consider all the other surviving nations inferior or infidels to their "correct" interpretation of Christianity(Muslim-esque French, Hindu-esque British, Turkic-influenced and asiatic Russians, not to mention the various "heathen" powers like Japan or the Caliphate).
I also hadn't known about that fact about Norway. I actually like the idea of a Scandanavian southern cone. Certainly original.
Also, what about a European nation in China? Is that possible at all? A country turning its Zone of Influence into a de facto colony, then riding some sort of "Taiping Rebellion" to de jure power? Nevertheless, it's an interesting idea, I think. Moreso than Japan-China hybrid anyway.
Finally, in some way the US is going to survive. It would be interesting to create a sort of FWoaN United States of Mexico, with a heavily mixed anglo-spanish language and racial qualities more in line with Mexico. One that is in conflict with Brazil and trying to reclaim El Norte, only to come into conflict with a Confederacy-like area in the South. I imagine something like the black-dominated south in Nekroman's ASB story(I think it's his) where the few whites left are in a sort of de facto segregation from the majority blacks.
Just some random ideas I've had.
I also always liked the idea of Austrians/Germans fleeing into the balkans. I think a really interesting scenario is these survivors go the route of Tony Jones's Puritan world and call themselves the Holy Roman Empire to appease the slavs and greeks. The *HRE would be in a perfect position to claim Rome and Constantinople(or Konstanburg, or whatever they decide to call it) and could come to see themselves as the true successors to the Roman Empire and the only viable rulers of Europe. This creates another villain besides the Ultra-Orthodox Russians as the *HRE would consider all the other surviving nations inferior or infidels to their "correct" interpretation of Christianity(Muslim-esque French, Hindu-esque British, Turkic-influenced and asiatic Russians, not to mention the various "heathen" powers like Japan or the Caliphate).
I also hadn't known about that fact about Norway. I actually like the idea of a Scandanavian southern cone. Certainly original.
Also, what about a European nation in China? Is that possible at all? A country turning its Zone of Influence into a de facto colony, then riding some sort of "Taiping Rebellion" to de jure power? Nevertheless, it's an interesting idea, I think. Moreso than Japan-China hybrid anyway.
Finally, in some way the US is going to survive. It would be interesting to create a sort of FWoaN United States of Mexico, with a heavily mixed anglo-spanish language and racial qualities more in line with Mexico. One that is in conflict with Brazil and trying to reclaim El Norte, only to come into conflict with a Confederacy-like area in the South. I imagine something like the black-dominated south in Nekroman's ASB story(I think it's his) where the few whites left are in a sort of de facto segregation from the majority blacks.
Just some random ideas I've had.
Valdemar II
Banned
Morroco will likely be French but the new population will likely be majority Spanish, Mahgreb will be interesting with a Italian, French, Spanish, Berbers and Arabs under control of the French state.
Interesting
Yes I think so too, it would be logical place to emigrate (and Denmark had a large mechant marine too.), it largely empty with good farmland.
I don't think it's possibel, to far away from Europe and to far north, but Russian splinter states will likely survive in Sibiria, with local garrison leader/guvernours setting themself up as rule over the native population (the Falls effect on sibiria will be rather minor) with the local Russians becoming the elite.
Unlikely the South will likely end up very large majority white with people migrating from the midwest, and Mexico is protected by the northen desert from migrating Anglos, through easten Mexico will likely get a infusion, but they will likely be assimilated.
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Some ideas to consider are the following groups. Each, was actually preaching about an upcoming "apocalyptic event" c.1878 (POD of Peshawar Lancers). The fact they would have been proven right would have certainly boosted their power bases:
* Mormon forces in Salt Lake City, Utah make a natural addition, also according to some maps, Deseret was originally supposed to stretch to San Diego, California. Also they did claim that the "End Times" would occur before 1890...
* Jehovah's Witnesses, Second and Seventh Day Adventists, and the Millerite movement within the United States actually predicted 1878 as a day of apocalypse. They would certainly see an increase in their flock due to the meteor strikes....
* Third, Wovoka, Northern Paiute leader, would have certainly looked at the events as a "Ghost Dance" to rid the North American Continent of the white man....
* Mormon forces in Salt Lake City, Utah make a natural addition, also according to some maps, Deseret was originally supposed to stretch to San Diego, California. Also they did claim that the "End Times" would occur before 1890...
* Jehovah's Witnesses, Second and Seventh Day Adventists, and the Millerite movement within the United States actually predicted 1878 as a day of apocalypse. They would certainly see an increase in their flock due to the meteor strikes....
* Third, Wovoka, Northern Paiute leader, would have certainly looked at the events as a "Ghost Dance" to rid the North American Continent of the white man....
just a thought, Brigham Young died in 1877 and in those days the Presidency was left open for some time (in OTL 3 years) John Taylor governed the Church as president Quorum of the Twelve Apostles but he was Primus inter pares not Prophet, Seer, Revelator, Translator, and Ruler as a real President of the Church would be.
China's population is too much for any one European nation to hold down, plus I believe think China wasn't carved up into spheres of influence yet so I don't think what you suggest is plausible. But I do agree with you about the Japanese hybrid thing. Japan probably couldn't have taken down all of China at the time, and even if they did I think it would have been more interesting to call the country China and have the Yamato dynasty (or Tokugawa shogunate, whichever is in power) claim the mandate of heaven instead of renaming it "Dai Nippon".
Well, to be fair, I think Stirling had Japan turn more towards China, with the capital moving to Peking (Beijing).
Here are a few more PODs that can make things interesting:
* In OTL, Emperor Norton I was a major figure in San Francisco, California, until his death in 1880. In the ATL, consider his rule over a California Republic...
* In OTL, Nicolás Zúñiga y Miranda proclaimed himself Emperor of Mexico starting in 1892 until his death in 1925. In the ATL, it wouldn't be too strange to have him as the ruler of a resurgent Mexican Empire....
* Hawaii would most likely still be under the control of the House of Liliʻuokalani, with a monarchy unhampered by American overthrow in 1893....
* Brazil and Argentina (Araucania y Patagonia) would both be ruled still by monarchies. Brazil would be under the House of Orleans-Braganza. Argentina would be under the House of Ionocos (Mapuche).
* In OTL, Emperor Norton I was a major figure in San Francisco, California, until his death in 1880. In the ATL, consider his rule over a California Republic...
* In OTL, Nicolás Zúñiga y Miranda proclaimed himself Emperor of Mexico starting in 1892 until his death in 1925. In the ATL, it wouldn't be too strange to have him as the ruler of a resurgent Mexican Empire....
* Hawaii would most likely still be under the control of the House of Liliʻuokalani, with a monarchy unhampered by American overthrow in 1893....
* Brazil and Argentina (Araucania y Patagonia) would both be ruled still by monarchies. Brazil would be under the House of Orleans-Braganza. Argentina would be under the House of Ionocos (Mapuche).
You could say almost the same for Finland. The Finnish merchant tonnage in 1870 was the 11th largest in the world, and in per capita terms only Norway, Britain, the Netherlands and Greece had more cargo space under their flag than the Finnish Grand Duchy. This was, like they say, the Golden Age of the Finnish shipping trade.
So, in theory, the Finnish population could be evacuated too. The practice is another question entirely: ships have owners, too, and most ships would be naturally scattered around the world at any given moment, so the government (the local Finnish govt. or the Imperial Russian govt.) could not easily press them to service. Not all of them, at least.
I'd say a part of the Finnish merchant fleet would be used to evacuate some of the upper and middle class form Finland. Part of it would help to evacuate Russians via St. Petersburg. The rest would perform various transport tasks in different parts of the world, perhaps in many cases taken over by local powers-that-be "for the duration". In any case, the bulk of the Finnish ships would eventually end up in the still inhabited ports of the world: with the people evacuated from Finland, the great number of Finnish sailors serving on them would guarantee that at least a part of the Finnish people would survive the catastrophe...
Since the major impacts were in the North Atlantic I'd image Portugal would be totally wiped out along with most of Spains shipping capacity (while their med forces would be seized by the French), whilst Spain being high and dry would be hurt a lot by the Impact Cooling. Thats also why the North American interior will be in a lot of trouble as due to its layout it will be the hardest hit by the 3 years without Summer (this is why the NA ice-age icesheets were so much bigger than the European ones) and Agriculture will basically shut down North of Tennessee whilst the vast hordes migrating south will collapse southern society. I also think 'US conquers Mexico' to be unlikely as although lots of people will survive the majority of industry, shipping, and administration will be wiped out, and the Americans and Mexicans will be fighting on much more equal terms (especially as Mexico is on its home ground and the Americans will have to cross a huge distance with much less in the way of supplies, and they'll have to push all the way south before they get to fertile territory).
Also Brazil isn't going to be powerful right off due to its Northern coasts being destroyed, its export based ecomony imploding, and the fact it just doesn't have that many people (just 11 million at the time of impact, a good half of which will be killed by the tsunami).
If no major wave of debris or too much water is vaporized on impact from the space object, no tsunami would be created till it reached shallow water. Any boat in deep water should be fine.
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The California Republic
Here are a few more PODs that can make things interesting:
* In OTL, Emperor Norton I was a major figure in San Francisco, California, until his death in 1880. In the ATL, consider his rule over a California Republic...
At the time of the Fall,the Union Pacific linked the west coast with the midwest and the Southern Pacific Railroad was past the Sierras and on its way to Tucson, (which it reached IOTL in 1880). Refugees from the increasingly bad weather could have migrated by rail to California, and then by local roads up and down the coast. With its increasing population, the California Republic could have expanded from its capitol at San Francisco across the mountains into Nevada (for its silver mines) and south into Baja and into Arizona (mining, fishing. Also with two of the best ports in the U.S., lots of shipping, agriculture, a burgeoning population and the railroads, somebody like Leland Stanford could have had a very powerful state. Look for future conflicts with the Texas Republic!
And why is it that EVERYONE in North America and Europe is a cannibal? Wouldn't some tribe notice that it is better to hunt the newly rebuilt animal populations than to eat each other?