A more realistic Peshawar Lancers

[Claudius]

[
Given the upheavals of the time, the South may see major conflict. The Reconstruction governments were deeply unpopular. Add to this the influsx of displaced Yankees and the fact that many adult males in the South were civil war veterans. (IOTL this was part of the reason for the Lincoln County War, the actions of the James gang and the Hatfield-McCoy fued in West Virginia. The war animosiites were still there..

 

[Petike]

And why is it that EVERYONE in North America and Europe is a cannibal? Wouldn't some tribe notice that it is better to hunt the newly rebuilt animal populations than to eat each other?

Stirling obviously loves making less-succesful survivors into cannibals, so he can handwave them away and not be accused of plot holes.

I like the idea of a more realistic Peshawarverse. Keep up the good work, all...

 

[black angel]

Given the upheavals of the time, the South may see major conflict. The Reconstruction governments were deeply unpopular. Add to this the influsx of displaced Yankees and the fact that many adult males in the South were civil war veterans. (IOTL this was part of the reason for the Lincoln County War, the actions of the James gang and the Hatfield-McCoy fued in West Virginia. The war animosiites were still there..

true, at first that'll be there, there are a few things that'll stop a full civil war, for one most Southerners don't want it, the war was hell on earth for the South so You'll see some politicians playing the "free the south" and "damn yankee" cards and an uptick in KKK activity the second they hear that William Tecumseh Sherman is the man in charge they'll piss themselfs, and if any one does try and fight him Sherman will crush them into the dirt, and when the cooling gets under way things will be so bad that Yankee Vs. Reb will be meaningless as every one tries to live trough the end of the world

 

[Claudius]

I agree., no civil war but lots of disorder. Stirling kind of overstates the climate effects on the human race, at least in North America. Consider that in the real Ice Age, when New York was under 1000 feet of glacial ice, the south was a forested temperate zone with a full complement of plants, large animals, and proto-Indian tribes. Granted, the sudden cooling will play hell with some ecosystems, particularly further north, but after the first winter, probably little in the way of starvation

 

[Valdemar II]

I agree., no civil war but lots of disorder. Stirling kind of overstates the climate effects on the human race, at least in North America. Consider that in the real Ice Age, when New York was under 1000 feet of glacial ice, the south was a forested temperate zone with a full complement of plants, large animals, and proto-Indian tribes. Granted, the sudden cooling will play hell with some ecosystems, particularly further north, but after the first winter, probably little in the way of starvation

I doubt the central American government will survive, but I think some of the Southen state government will survive. The biggest problem is the refugees from the north which will mean some very lean years (think Somalia-style famine)

 

[black angel]

I agree., no civil war but lots of disorder. Stirling kind of overstates the climate effects on the human race, at least in North America. Consider that in the real Ice Age, when New York was under 1000 feet of glacial ice, the south was a forested temperate zone with a full complement of plants, large animals, and proto-Indian tribes. Granted, the sudden cooling will play hell with some ecosystems, particularly further north, but after the first winter, probably little in the way of starvation

the Southern Disorder would be short lived.

the Mormons will most likely see this as the end days, and cut Utah off from the rest of the USA, Sherman will most likely just say "fuck 'em, deal with those SOB's later" then the cooling starts and Utah gets really shitty and every thing goes to hell, Church leaders will try and force people to stay in "Zion" things start to brake down as people Challenge John Taylor right to rule given he's not President of the Church several People claim to Prophet (Taylor among them) the LDS brakes up in it's own grubby little Civil War as about half of them leave to the USA in south.

in Independence, Missouri, the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints under Joseph Smith III is one of the many out there Churches that has an explosion of Members after the Fall, in the move south the RCJCLDS grows most of the Mormons coming out of Utah join this church have lost faith in the LDS

 

[black angel]

I doubt the central American government will survive, but I think most of the Southen state government will survive. The biggest problem is the refugees from the north which will mean some very lean years (think Somalia-style famine)

DC is wiped out, but the Commanding General of the Army isn't in DC, he's in St. Louis, and his name is William Tecumseh Sherman Also Grant is in Japan at the time of the Fall safe from it, I find it more then likely he'd get back to the USA before cooling even starts, those Two can and Will save the Union

 

[Valdemar II]

DC is wiped out, but the Commanding General of the Army isn't in DC, he's in St. Louis, and his name is William Tecumseh Sherman Also Grant is in Japan at the time of the Fall safe from it, I find it more then likely he'd get back to the USA before cooling even starts, those Two can and Will save the Union

Doubt it, it will just mean a powerful warlord, I doubt USA will survive in recognisable form, states will try to take as much power as possible, and likely states in the migration route (states west of the Appalancies) will break down, and local warlords will take over. Through USA will likely unite in a smaller and more feudal form later on.

 

[black angel]

Doubt it, it will just mean a powerful warlord, I doubt USA will survive in recognisable form, states will try to take as much power as possible, and likely states in the migration route (states west of the Appalancies) will break down, and local warlords will take over. Through USA will likely unite in a smaller and more feudal form later on.

funny thats just what Stirling thinks, the USA is ready to brake down into warlords, IF the UK can ship it's self to India and make it through ok, they The USA will make it.

 

[Communist Wizard]

the Southern Disorder would be short lived.

the Mormons will most likely see this as the end days, and cut Utah off from the rest of the USA, Sherman will most likely just say "fuck 'em, deal with those SOB's later" then the cooling starts and Utah gets really shitty and every thing goes to hell, Church leaders will try and force people to stay in "Zion" things start to brake down as people Challenge John Taylor right to rule given he's not President of the Church several People claim to Prophet (Taylor among them) the LDS brakes up in it's own grubby little Civil War as about half of them leave to the USA in south.

in Independence, Missouri, the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints under Joseph Smith III is one of the many out there Churches that has an explosion of Members after the Fall, in the move south the RCJCLDS grows most of the Mormons coming out of Utah join this church have lost faith in the LDS

Too many assumptions, IMO. Why is "Zion" closed off, why are climatic conditions so bad, why are people schisming at a time of crisis, when internal conflict is looked down upon?
And for that matter, why would the Southern disorder be short lived?
Anyways, obviously the number of cannibals is quite implausible. Humans are not supposed humans unless it's in extreme circumstances. And those extreme circumstances won't last THAT long.
It's probably the same for climatic effects on Europe. Why was the Gulf Stream disrupted by one meteor shower? Currents stop flowing in the direction of Europe as a massive meteor or two hits... then currents start flowing again? And while the water might be cooler as the whole world is cooler, it doesn't kill of the Gulf Stream fully. So Europe shouldn't be that hard hit. Meteors, yes. Long term climate... no.

 

[Communist Wizard]

funny thats just what Stirling thinks, the USA is ready to brake down into warlords, IF the UK can ship it's self to India and make it through ok, they The USA will make it.

First of all, the US is far bigger and stretched out and thus more likely to break up. It just had a civil war, as well. Unlike the UK.
Secondly, it's asking what is plausible, and what isn't. What Stirling thinks is no longer applicable. So you think the UK simply transplanting itself to India implausible? Great. I do too, actually. There was a mutiny once, and anger over the hard times could be taken out on the British. People think India was always this loyal part of the Empire that could be cowed using a little force when as soon as hard times hit in the UK in the post WW1 period, India was close to mutiny (and there were mutinies in 1915). And of course, what happens when inevitably the Indians are educated?
However, even if the UK makes it, how does that impact the USA? You say it as if when the UK makes to India, we are now in debt to the USA and must make it survive as well. Sorry, but no.

 

[Valdemar II]

funny thats just what Stirling thinks, the USA is ready to brake down into warlords, IF the UK can ship it's self to India and make it through ok, they The USA will make it.

Crap USA is very decentral with much of the central government disappeared including the legitime president, with a small army and a still a large segment of the population having served in the army, and relative eaisy access to weaponry, at the same time, they're in largescale famine. There's no way you don't see society break down in smaller units in that kind of society. Sterling just think they alll begin to eat each others and end up as small cannibalistic hunter-gartner band, which is crap, Somalians didn't, American won't either.

 

[black angel]

Too many assumptions, IMO. Why is "Zion" closed off, why are climatic conditions so bad, why are people schisming at a time of crisis, when internal conflict is looked down upon?
And for that matter, why would the Southern disorder be short lived?

because it's the End of the World, the Anti-Christ is coming and the Faithful need to make a Kingdom of God for Christ to come into and save the world (never read the Book of Revelations?)

the climatic conditions are "so bad" because Utah is in the Rockies winter in Salt Lake sucks now, given a temp drop it'd get bad in Utah

while internal conflict is looked down upon in Mormonism when people start dying in large numbers people are going to start asking if God is trying to tell them something, also the man leading them isn't a Prophet, the Church is Sede vacante so to speak.

as for the South, most Southerners DO NOT want a new war, and Sherman would take a joy in killing any hot heads that tried to start real Trouble

 

[Communist Wizard]

because it's the End of the World, the Anti-Christ is coming and the Faithful need to make a Kingdom of God for Christ to come into and save the world (never read the Book of Revelations?)

the climatic conditions are "so bad" because Utah is in the Rockies winter in Salt Lake sucks now, given a temp drop it'd get bad in Utah

while internal conflict is looked down upon in Mormonism when people start dying in large numbers people are going to start asking if God is trying to tell them something, also the man leading them isn't a Prophet, the Church is Sede vacante so to speak.

as for the South, most Southerners DO NOT want a new war, and Sherman would take a joy in killing any hot heads that tried to start real Trouble

So? The South is large wide rural area with no central authority. It is very easy to break up into warlordism. And according to your logic, if the Deseret breaks up we owe it now and must destroy the USA completely. One or the other, ba.

 

[Hawkeye]

My thoughts on South Africa: I think the Boer States would have a real chance against the Angrezi Raj for the first couple of decades and might form some kind of Boer Federation in South Africa. Or they could also willingly join the Raj under some sort of union like the Batavian Republic or something else.

 

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Something that could serve as a unifying storyline is the idea that in OTL, Buffalo Bill launched his "Wild West Show" starting in 1883 until 1917, in an effort to introduce American culture to European audiences. Prior to the POD of 1878, many people often ignored North America as another "backwater nation". Also during the Russian Civil War, 1918-1921, both the Bolsheviks and Western forces, sent trains promoting the rival ideas of "socialism" and "capitalism".

In the ATL, what if General Grant's government establishes something similar in an effort to help speed up the reconstruction process. Or some ambitious leader sends armored trains out promote ideals of democracy, complete with copies of the U.S. Constitution and Declaration of Independence......

 

[Strategos' Risk]

Spain would at the very least survive in Cuba and Puerto Rico. While Angola becomes the new Portugal.

Norway is interesting because it has a merchant navy big enough to evacuate it entire population, so we would like see them migrate to the southen cone, together with other Scandinavians, while not enough to directly take over Argentina, it would give Argentina major Scandinavian cultural traits.

The French could easily evacuate enough to come in majority in Algeria, while major Italian migration would do the same thing to Tunis.

Continental Greece will likely be completely overrunned by the South Slavs, while the Ottoman Empire survive in Anatolia and the Crescent.

Ironically, loss of a Satanist Russian Empire aside, posts like this fan speculation postulate an even more diverse and interesting world that in Stirling's novel. I guess the open source nature of AH.com gives us an advantage over a singular novel.

That said, does anyone think that the Dai Nippoin (chipanese?) Empire was pretty unrealistic? As colorful the idea was and as interesting as well as it fits with the hybrid cultures motif.

Finally, in some way the US is going to survive. It would be interesting to create a sort of FWoaN United States of Mexico, with a heavily mixed anglo-spanish language and racial qualities more in line with Mexico. One that is in conflict with Brazil and trying to reclaim El Norte, only to come into conflict with a Confederacy-like area in the South. I imagine something like the black-dominated south in Nekroman's ASB story(I think it's his) where the few whites left are in a sort of de facto segregation from the majority blacks.

Give the man a prize! I've always thought the Union army would just charge south of the border and establish a USM, exactly For Want of a Nail-style. Fits with the hybrid culture and everything.

 

[Claudius]

OK So far we have a devestated but surviving USA, a chaotic South trying to deal with food shortages and migrants, Deseret having a real hard time and cut off in the winters at least. The North has lost its biggest population centers (NY, Philidelphia, Boston, Baltimore) and its political leadership. Possibly an anglo-hispanic state in northern Mexico and a rising power in California. (By the way St. Louis is not a place Sherman is going to stay. It is a matter of record that in 1800 during the last part of the Little Ice Age, the Mississippi froze over bank to bank, so it definitely will in the situation as well) The railroads and control of them becomes key to developments My guess Grant shows up in California and is in communication with Sherman back east. Texas probably in the best shape in the South, with lots of room and a low population. The cattle-based economy should hold up as long as the winters aren't too bad.

 

[MerryPrankster]

There were also impacts in the interior US, though--the comet didn't just land in Europe and the ocean.

St. Louis could be destroyed as well, or its transit links with the rest of the US severed.

 

[black angel]

There were also impacts in the interior US, though--the comet didn't just land in Europe and the ocean.

St. Louis could be destroyed as well, or its transit links with the rest of the US severed.

I'm fairly sure there weren't any impacts in North America