not to mention the breeds, its essentially a slightly slimmer auroch
Tbf we'd not see a lot of breed separation, not until the Europeans come over if only bc most large domesticated animals don't really have breeds for most of history.

I defo see a lot of breeds being developed in the 19th century tho, and a few breeds being developed in the 17th and 18th centuries.
 
DBWI: The Bad Berry
DBWI: The Bad Berry

Taken from a discussion thread on alternatehistory.co.eng

Thread Title: Does anybody remember The Bad Berry?



Original Post

From: Charles Be Good

Time: 13 March, 7:26 AM

What does everyone think of Peterezgo’s TL The Bad Berry, where Black Rice is not domesticated in the Mishigami circa 3000 BCE? As a consequence, there is no Mishigami Agricultural Package and world history changes dramatically as a result.

Personally I thought that it was fun but had severe plausibility problems.



From: King Leo the Great

Time: 13 March, 8:21 AM

It was ridiculous and I didn’t like it at all. Just because black rice wasn’t domesticated doesn’t mean bede or other stuff wouldn’t be domesticated. And he has sunflowers show up anyway later on. The whole TL is silly and inconsistent.

The eastern European stuff is particularly crazy and nonsensical. The “Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth”? Really?



From: Bloodshark

Time: 13 March, 9:23 AM

The complete lack of any kind of major civilization in Minisia (Or “North America”) is kinda ASB. The closest the TL gets is Cahokia, which falls apart before the Europeans even arrive. Something would have formed there, whether black rice was domesticated or not.



From: Juan78

Time: 13 March, 9:26 PM

The “Spanish” (who only control 2/3 of Spain and the wrong 2/3 at that) manage to conquer most of the Occidant in two expeditions with massive amounts of good luck. I’m all for a Spanish wank but that was pure ASB.

And “Portugal” inexplicably continuing to exist even after unification with the rest of Spain.



From: Queen Yolanda’s Revenge

Time: 13 March, 9:48 PM

I think he just forgot about Portugal. It’s the only explanation.



From: Charles Be Good

Time: 14 March, 7:13 AM

I’m really surprised by all the negative responses so far. I quite liked the TL. Was it the best TL ever? No but it was fun.



From: Grease Titan

Time: 14 March, 8:18 AM

To me, at least, it comes across as a white supremacist’s wet dream. Europeans conquer most of Minisia, wipe out the indigenous population, and unite in one country “from sea to shining sea” because of “manifest destiny”. And this country doesn’t immediately collapse from being way too large and diverse. No, instead it becomes a world dominating hyperpower. Because white people.



From: Florin_03

Time: 14 March, 3:58 PM

At least his Minisian super state is threatened by a pan-Russian Empire that worships non-theistic collectivism. That, at least, is interesting and different.



From: Grease Titan

Time: 15 March, 9:23 AM

I forgot to mention that atomics are only used twice… on Nippon by his white Minisia super-state. :rolls eyes:



From: Kaiser Caesar

Time: 15 March, 10:17 AM

Overall I agree that it was disappointing, but I think you guys are being too harsh. I like wanks and this one is more plausible than most. If a country did manage to conquer such a large part of Minisia it would be super powerful. And the native Minisian population would be way lower without black rice.



From: Grease Titan

Time: 15 March, 12:16 PM

What about East Asia? Nippon doesn’t modernize until the 1860s. China doesn’t industrialize until the 1990s! Just ridiculous.

South Asia and the Middle East are no better. A mostly united Bharat called ‘India’. A divided Arabia and an evil caliphate. And I’m pretty sure he just drew random lines on a map of Sub-Saharan Africa. Brasil is just drugs and coups. The whole world is messed up.



From: Arthur the Admin

Time: 17 March, 6:27 PM

You can’t just go around accusing people of being white supremacists because they made a TL where Europeans do well. Grease Titans is kicked for a week.

In fact, this whole thread is just a pit of negativity. Locked.



This thread is not open to further replies.


*************************​
A Super Special Christmas Surprise! Just a fun little bit of speculation. Hope you enjoyed it. Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!


Comments? Questions?
 
With all due respect to Arthur, the Bad Berry scenario is so ridiculous I think the accusations of White supremacy are not too far fetched!
 
Ha XD. Love the meta-joke, though I don't think the Commonwealth or so on would be butterflied away by the events of here. But then again, it is a fascinating reminder of how weird history would be.

And oof, poor Greasy would crack at seeing OTL. That said, this is some pretty interesting hints at what is to come, I reckon.

Happy holidays!
 
So:
  1. Iberia is unified
  2. Japan and China industrialize sooner than OTL
  3. Communism is religious TTL
  4. Nuclear weapons are used more widely
  5. The Middle East is united
  6. India and North America are divided
  7. Africa better resisted to colonialism
  8. Brazil still exists, meaning that the POD didn't affect the survival of the Amazonian civilization
Ha XD. Love the meta-joke, though I don't think the Commonwealth or so on would be butterflied away by the events of here. But then again, it is a fascinating reminder of how weird history would be.
A change of forestry in North America could change the global cimate enough that Eastern Europe might be wildly different.
 
Ha XD. Love the meta-joke, though I don't think the Commonwealth or so on would be butterflied away by the events of here. But then again, it is a fascinating reminder of how weird history would be.

Remember, butterflies will start to hit Europe ITTL after the year 1000 AD, not after 1492. Leif Erikson and all that.

Most of this is correct. Some of it is wrong but I won't say which parts. But to be clear, I only having an outline of history up to the modern day. Some or all of it could change before we get there. And at the rate we going, I doubt this TL reaches the modern day any time soon.
 
Happy New Years Everyone!

I've been thinking a lot about what I am going to do with this project going forward. Last year, I started off with several updates already being written before I started this thread. This allowed me to write and edit each update several times before uploading it. By the end of the year, I was chasing my own tail and barely finishing each update before it was scheduled to be uploaded. I think this had a detrimental effect on the quality of the updates and it certainly had a detrimental effect on my stress levels.

Therefore, I am going to hold off before resuming weekly updates. I need time to write far enough ahead that I can comfortably edit and re-write each update several times before uploading it here. I am not going to give a firm date on when this project will resume its weekly update schedule and it may be some time before another update.

That said, I do have plans for what comes next and the I thought I would share them here. The next phase of the project will detail the rise, apex, and fall of the Shawnee Empire while setting up for the arrival of Leif Erikson around the year 1000 AD. To this end, I have plans for no less than 10 narrative updates. These will interspersed with worldbuilding updates that will either talk about some aspect of culture or expand the geographic scope of the story.

Cultural updates will include talking about the changes writing has undergone in the thousand or so years since its inception, a tour of the capital city of the Shawnee Empire, a day in the life of an imperial concubine, and an update about how the caste system has changed. Most of the cultural updates will be placed during the golden age of the Shawnee Empire when not much is happening narratively.

Geographic updates will definitely include the Snake River Valley, the American Southwest, Pacific Northwest, Valley of Mexico, Yucatan Peninsula, Caribbean Sea, and Canadian Maritime provinces. Geographic updates that may or may not happen before the landing of Leif Erikson include California, Great Salt Lake Region, Chichimecha, the American East Coast (probably two or three updates), and South America (probably three or more updates). At the moment, I plan to have a geographic update every third chapter but depending on the ratio of narrative/setting updates to geographic updates, that may change.

If you have any ideas for what you want me to cover, I would love to hear them.

Cheers,
Pete.
 
Last edited:
I look forward especially to reading your update on the Maritimes. This region seems, from my brief readings about it, to be in many ways a fringe area to the Eastern Woodlands, very cut off from cultural developments on the rest of the continent (e.g. the Hopewell tradition, the spread of maize agriculture). So, I'm excited to see how you will change it!
 
DBWI: The Bad Berry

Taken from a discussion thread on alternatehistory.co.eng

Thread Title: Does anybody remember The Bad Berry?



Original Post

From: Charles Be Good

Time: 13 March, 7:26 AM

What does everyone think of Peterezgo’s TL The Bad Berry, where Black Rice is not domesticated in the Mishigami circa 3000 BCE? As a consequence, there is no Mishigami Agricultural Package and world history changes dramatically as a result.

Personally I thought that it was fun but had severe plausibility problems.



From: King Leo the Great

Time: 13 March, 8:21 AM

It was ridiculous and I didn’t like it at all. Just because black rice wasn’t domesticated doesn’t mean bede or other stuff wouldn’t be domesticated. And he has sunflowers show up anyway later on. The whole TL is silly and inconsistent.

The eastern European stuff is particularly crazy and nonsensical. The “Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth”? Really?



From: Bloodshark

Time: 13 March, 9:23 AM

The complete lack of any kind of major civilization in Minisia (Or “North America”) is kinda ASB. The closest the TL gets is Cahokia, which falls apart before the Europeans even arrive. Something would have formed there, whether black rice was domesticated or not.



From: Juan78

Time: 13 March, 9:26 PM

The “Spanish” (who only control 2/3 of Spain and the wrong 2/3 at that) manage to conquer most of the Occidant in two expeditions with massive amounts of good luck. I’m all for a Spanish wank but that was pure ASB.

And “Portugal” inexplicably continuing to exist even after unification with the rest of Spain.



From: Queen Yolanda’s Revenge

Time: 13 March, 9:48 PM

I think he just forgot about Portugal. It’s the only explanation.



From: Charles Be Good

Time: 14 March, 7:13 AM

I’m really surprised by all the negative responses so far. I quite liked the TL. Was it the best TL ever? No but it was fun.



From: Grease Titan

Time: 14 March, 8:18 AM

To me, at least, it comes across as a white supremacist’s wet dream. Europeans conquer most of Minisia, wipe out the indigenous population, and unite in one country “from sea to shining sea” because of “manifest destiny”. And this country doesn’t immediately collapse from being way too large and diverse. No, instead it becomes a world dominating hyperpower. Because white people.



From: Florin_03

Time: 14 March, 3:58 PM

At least his Minisian super state is threatened by a pan-Russian Empire that worships non-theistic collectivism. That, at least, is interesting and different.



From: Grease Titan

Time: 15 March, 9:23 AM

I forgot to mention that atomics are only used twice… on Nippon by his white Minisia super-state. :rolls eyes:



From: Kaiser Caesar

Time: 15 March, 10:17 AM

Overall I agree that it was disappointing, but I think you guys are being too harsh. I like wanks and this one is more plausible than most. If a country did manage to conquer such a large part of Minisia it would be super powerful. And the native Minisian population would be way lower without black rice.



From: Grease Titan

Time: 15 March, 12:16 PM

What about East Asia? Nippon doesn’t modernize until the 1860s. China doesn’t industrialize until the 1990s! Just ridiculous.

South Asia and the Middle East are no better. A mostly united Bharat called ‘India’. A divided Arabia and an evil caliphate. And I’m pretty sure he just drew random lines on a map of Sub-Saharan Africa. Brasil is just drugs and coups. The whole world is messed up.



From: Arthur the Admin

Time: 17 March, 6:27 PM

You can’t just go around accusing people of being white supremacists because they made a TL where Europeans do well. Grease Titans is kicked for a week.

In fact, this whole thread is just a pit of negativity. Locked.



This thread is not open to further replies.


*************************​
A Super Special Christmas Surprise! Just a fun little bit of speculation. Hope you enjoyed it. Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!


Comments? Questions?
Didn't read this timeline. reading this DBWI sent my sides into Alpha Centauri :)
 
So:
  1. Iberia is unified
  2. Japan and China industrialize sooner than OTL
  3. Communism is religious TTL
  4. Nuclear weapons are used more widely
  5. The Middle East is united
  6. India and North America are divided
  7. Africa better resisted to colonialism
  8. Brazil still exists, meaning that the POD didn't affect the survival of the Amazonian civilization

A change of forestry in North America could change the global cimate enough that Eastern Europe might be wildly different.

From the whole bit about "drugs and coups", I think that "Brasil" is what TTL South America will be called...
 
Last edited:
Since people are posting here, I guess I'll give an update on when the next post should be.

I'm still working on this TL every day. Some days more than others but still. Just today I started a spreadsheet to track the reigns of every Shawnee Emperor. I've fleshed out my plans for the future a lot and even gone back to write more prose.

At this point, I expect to start back up with weekly updates sometime in March. I'm thinking that I'll switch from updates every Monday to one every Saturday. That should work with my schedule better. I also plan to have fewer supplementals and try to keep each update to <1200 words. We'll see how much of this comes true.
 
Since people are posting here, I guess I'll give an update on when the next post should be.

I'm still working on this TL every day. Some days more than others but still. Just today I started a spreadsheet to track the reigns of every Shawnee Emperor. I've fleshed out my plans for the future a lot and even gone back to write more prose.

At this point, I expect to start back up with weekly updates sometime in March. I'm thinking that I'll switch from updates every Monday to one every Saturday. That should work with my schedule better. I also plan to have fewer supplementals and try to keep each update to <1200 words. We'll see how much of this comes true.
Take you time and do your best! We believe in you :3
 
Hey guys, don't forget to vote for this TL (or another if you prefer) in the turtledove awards poll:

 
i-am-back-estoy-de-vuelta.gif
I'm back baby. [1]

I'm going back to weekly updates for this TL. I've decided that from now on, I will split the TL into 5 chapter "chunks" that I will finish before moving on to the next "chunk". So the next update will be tomorrow morning, followed by a new update every Saturday morning for the next 7 weeks.

Wait, if its 5 chapters, why will it be 7 weeks? Well, I've decided that supplementals will get a week of their own. What's the difference between a "Chapter" and a "Supplemental". Well, Chapters are longer and contain information you need to know to read future chapters. Supplementals are mostly shorter and can be skipped.

That means the next two months look like this:

Chapter 36: The Master of Life 3/16/24 (This will cover the new religion)
Chapter 37: Sacred History 3/23/24 (This will cover the early history of the Shawnee Empire, before it began expanding)
Supplemental: The Place of a Woman 3/30/24 (This will cover the changes to gender relations with the new religion)
Chapter 38: Food and Drink 4/6/24 (An update on cuisine)
Chapter 39: The People of the South Wind 4/13/24 (This will cover the Shawnee Empire's early expansion)
Supplemental: The Book of War 4/20/24 (This will cover the writing of a book on military stratagem)
Chapter 40: The Land of Bede and Wool 4/27/24 (This will cover the expansion of agriculture into the Snake River Valley)

I reserve the right to change any of these at any time for any reason. Life happens, inspiration hits you, and things change. However, all of these updates are already written (though they aren't all edited to the point that I am happy with them yet). So there shouldn't be any major changes yet.

After Chapter 40, there will a break that is, at minimum, one week long. Then I will update the next five chapter "chunk". And so on.

This should allow for more breathing space to allow me to write while keeping a more or less weekly update schedule.

In addition, I have made a number of minor changes to previously uploaded material. Most notably, I added "Volume 1: The Good Berry" to Chapter 1 and "Volume 2: Sacred History" to the Veiled Woman interlude. I also changed "Jurchenian-Siberia land bridge" to "Permian-Athabaskan Land Bridge" in Chapter 2. Not exactly ground shattering stuff.

I look forward to uploading the next chapter tomorrow. Have a great day, everybody!

[1] Taken from: https://tenor.com/view/i-am-back-estoy-de-vuelta-toy-story2-gif-26436333
 
Chapter 36: The Master of Life
Chapter 36: The Master of Life

By your hands these great works are made.
–Shaanii Aadizookaan​

When Tenskwatawa claimed to see and hear religious instructions from a supreme being, he started a new religion. This new religion is called Mozism in modern times, after the title of Moz, or prophet, used by Tenskwatawa. Contemporary non-Shawnee history and literature simply called it the Shawnee religion, though that is considered inaccurate today because of the large number of non-Shawnee converts. Shawnee history and literature refer to their own religious practices as mishi-debwewin or the Great Truth. This term is still used by some modern day Mozists.

Mozism shares many similarities and had many differences from the Midewiwin religion. Philosophically, Mozism was far more monotheistic. While Midewiwin religion had the idea of an overarching all powerful Manidoo, most of the day to day worship was directed at the expressions of Manidoo, the ojichaag. Mozism, by contrast, focuses all worship on the Ogimaa bimaadiziwin, often translated as “Master of Life”.

1710596159499.png


The Symbol of the Master of Life, as well as a symbol for Mozism as a whole​

The Master of Life is one form, one mind, and one being. However, Mozists still claim that the Master of Life can appear in many different forms and sometimes chooses to appear in seemingly contradictory ways. They simply state that you should not worship these forms and instead focus all attention on the singular supreme being. The concept of directly worshiping Manidoo or any supreme being is considered blasphemous in Midewiwin religion.

Today, the Master of Life is often (though not always) conflated with Manidoo and even the Christian God. But most religious scholars and philosophers do not consider the religion to be true monotheism because the Master of Life is not the only godly being, just the supremely powerful one and the only godly being that should be worshiped. Most would describe it as “singularism” to contrast “dualist” religions like zoroastrianism or monotheistic religions like Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.

To the average worshipper, the differences between Mozism and Midewiwin religion were more practical. No human sacrifice was allowed. Animal sacrifice was only to be performed in extreme circumstances.

Many Mozists were pescetarians (meaning the only meat they ate was fish), ovo-vegetarians (meaning the only meat they ate was eggs) or even full blown vegetarians. This was a continuation of the Mozist emphasis on the sacredness of life. Nobles and priests were the most likely to have restricted diets, as the average peasant was too preoccupied with getting enough food to survive to worry about moral arguments.

Slavery was also restricted. A Mozist was not allowed to enslave another Mozist. They could, however, enslave non-Mozist people and a slave that converted would not be freed. The Shaanii Aadizookaan explains this rule, as with so many others, with a story. In this story a slave pretends to convert to Mozism in order to get out of labor and then returns to his old religion. The duplicitous slave does this three times and commits crimes against Mozists each time before Tenskwatawa declares that slaves that converted would not be freed. Some scholars suspect that this story is a fabrication and that this rule was only adopted later, during the conquest of the Wasioto Basin, but this is not universally agreed upon.

Many Mozists also tattooed the sun on their hands to symbolize the moment Tenskwatawa was illuminated by the sun. Once again, this was most popular with priests and nobles. Sun tattoos among peasants was fairly common, though they were generally less elaborate than those of the nobility and priests.

1710596245631.png


Sun Tattoos [1]​

The most fundamental difference between Mozism and the other religions of Minisia during the late Classical Period was that Mozism is an evangelical religion. All previous religions in Minisia were ethnic or folk religions, similar to Judaism or Hinduism. This meant that only those of a particular ethnic group or area followed those religious beliefs and practices. Adherents of folk religions do not seek to convert others to their cause. Folk religions allow for a very wide range of acceptable practices and often (though not always) allow for their followers to be members of multiple religious groups simultaneously.

Mozism, by contrast, was a universalist and evangelical religion, similar to Christianity or Islam. This means that anyone can be a Mozist and religious adherents seek to convert people to Mozism. It held that there was a single universal truth that everyone should be told and convinced of. Doctrinal disputes had a right and wrong answer. It was exclusive, meaning you could not be Mozist and Midewiwin at the same time, at least according to Mozism. The rise of an evangelical religion had profound political and religious effects on the Mishigami and Ziibiing, not the least of which was the rise of the Shawnee Empire.

A new class of people also arose from the formation of this new religion. They were called mashkikiiwi, which literally means “medicine person” but is usually translated as “monk”. Unlike priests, monks were not allowed to accumulate lands or property of any kind. They were not allowed to eat meat of any kind. They were not allowed to drink any kind of alcohol or caffeine tea. They were not allowed to marry or have sex. They forswore their clan connections when they became monks. They wore a thin, simple cloth, rarely washed. They were often seen begging for food on the street. Though most were men, women were also permitted to become monks. Monks were expected to be well educated on Mozism and to evangelize Mozism to others.

In reality, of course, the quality of monks could vary widely. Some monks followed every rule and lived chaste, solemn lives trying to convert others to Mozism. Some used the respected status of monks to seduce women and take advantage of the religious or naive.

Non-mozists often considered monks to be a little more than dirty hobos and a nuisance. They were frequently expelled from city-states whose official state religion was Midewiwin or other folk religions. These expulsions were often a catalyst for conflict with the Shawnee Empire. At other times, the Shawnee trumped up tales of the mistreatment of monks as an excuse to go to war.

Next week, we will discuss the early history of Mozcala and the Shawnee Empire.

[1] Generated using Bing Image Creator. At least this one had the right number of fingers.

Comments? Questions?
 
Seeing the main religion of the Americas be henotheistic yet quite different from the other varieties of henotheism is quite interesting. I'd think that Mozism would be very geared towards empire-building as calling on religious fervour would be a common tactic the rulers use, especially if they see other deities and therefore other states as evil.
 
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