My point was that the summary is for new readers in general, though I get what you are saying here. Also, I think sending the reader mode version would be better for all this as well.
Reconstruction: The Second American Revolution - The Sequel to Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid
- Thread starter Red_Galiray
- Start date
It's entirely possible since Breckinridge wanted to abandon Richmond and Virginia, and Lee would have absolutely opposed that. Yet there are enough arguments to paint a Lee that would have remained loyal to Breckinridge. The ambiguity makes it fun, I think.
That I can agree with, but we cannot miss the forest for the trees. The situation during Reconstruction was not perfect, but it worsened drastically after Redemption. In other words, it went from bad to extremely bad. Moreover, though slow, there had been progress during Reconstruction in terms of Black economic rights - many were able to acquire land and a class of Black professionals and property holders had started to appear. Even among the sharecroppers it was reported that “The colored people . . . were never so well off as at present. They have money to spend in the stores.” Redemption significantly decreased Black opportunities, closing many avenues of progress that although few and narrow were there during Reconstruction.
Many of those Whigs proceeded to engage in terrorism and political violence soon. Alcorn would take part in the "Mississippi Plan" to carry the State through fraud and violence, and lead a paramilitary to massacre Black people at Coahoma. While Republicans did try to reconcile them, they often took Republican magnamity as weakness. An alternate history focusing on a better Reconstruction should not conciliate them as much.
Alright, those States were not loyal. What to do? If the only concern was placing loyal men in power, the answer is simple: abrogate Johnson's governments and disenfranchise rebels. Nothing has to be done in regards to civil rights. Instead, Republicans first passed bills to define civil rights and enforce them, never disenfranchised rebels on large scale, and only decided to sweep away the Johnson governments after they refused to accept civil rights. Can't you see there was clear concern for Black civil rights and an effort to protect them? It's clear as day, evident in all these measures which you are ignoring.
Look at the Civil Rights Act, the measure Republicans thought was so crucial that they had to override a Presidential veto for the first time in American history (in a piece of major legislation). It was only concerned with Black rights and legal equality. It wouldn't have done nothing to place loyal men in power, for it provided for neither disenfranchisement nor Black suffrage. There was absolutely nothing to gain by this act, no logic to its passage, unless Republicans were concerned with Black rights.
Finally, the Johnson argument is nonsensical. You claim even Johnson was worried about the kind of men he gave power to - and yet all he did was write that short letter, immediately recommending their restoration with no further concession. He never said "Alright admit Georgia but don't seat Stephens." For Johnson these were already loyal States and should be admitted and treated as such. Had he won, Stephens would have been seated.
Even ignoring the context of the TL he's simply preaching bad history, saying incorrect stuff about the OTL Reconstruction, that I feel I ought to correct. To claim that there was never any desire to establish and enforce Black rights on the part of the North is simply ridiculous.
I have considered it. Most people here however are returning readers who have read the first part already, so I don't see it as a pressing issue. But, yes, I do think I could produce a summary for those who are interested on this part yet don't want to read the first part - which is quite massive.
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Thank you very much for taking my idea to avoid derailing incidents into account.
Of course! It's a good idea. But in this case the derailing incident isn't so much a person spoutting incorrect information about the TL, but spoutting incorrect information about history itself. I presume that even had this gentleman read the first part of the TL he'd still dismiss as ASB nonsense.
Hello,
At the beginning of Reconstruction ITTL, the search begins for the black people to find a new identity beyond the American Civil War. The concern here is what element or elements form it. Certainly, they want to be seen as a people well beyond the history under the planters and how the latter perceived and portrayed them. The blacks have a need to remember that point in their collective history so that they and others do not forget and head off history repeating itself or becoming the basis of future discrimination.
To replace the recent history as forcibly imposed by the planters, the blacks may start by turning to their roots in continental Africa. While there is a definite record of free blacks arriving in America...
blogs.loc.gov
It may not be enough to overcome TTL's recent history. It may be seen then as a historical footnote further obscured by planter efforts, directly or indirectly. Regardless of the efforts by the planters to suppress African culture among their slaves, the latter did find ways to preserve their continental African heritage...
Christianity will form a substantial part of the post-ACW black identity...
christianhistoryinstitute.org
All aspects of this article are relevant up to and beyond the point of departure for this story. The various black Christian ministries will work to dispel pre-ACW notions espoused by not a few white Christian ministries in the planter South...
pluralism.org
According to the Christian History Institute article, several black Christian ministries provided the basis for the campaign for women's rights and empowerment in the United States.
Black Americans will make an effort to prove they are as capable, creative, and intelligent as any white on their way to establishing their identity, just doing so in their own way. As the alternate Civil War demolished most possibilities of OTL white southern backlash/interference, movements that formed outside the Deep South may take place in this alternate Deep South. Alternately, developments in African American self-determination can become more profound due to them taking place earlier or receiving greater recognition resulting from a lack of interference.
nmaahc.si.edu
blog.cengage.com
www.aaihs.org
www.imdb.com
I do not think blacks will entirely forsake their continental African heritage to begin establishing their new identity ITTL American Civil War aftermath, but it can form a part of that identity as it integrates American thought and values in the wake of this alternate Civil War.
At the beginning of Reconstruction ITTL, the search begins for the black people to find a new identity beyond the American Civil War. The concern here is what element or elements form it. Certainly, they want to be seen as a people well beyond the history under the planters and how the latter perceived and portrayed them. The blacks have a need to remember that point in their collective history so that they and others do not forget and head off history repeating itself or becoming the basis of future discrimination.
To replace the recent history as forcibly imposed by the planters, the blacks may start by turning to their roots in continental Africa. While there is a definite record of free blacks arriving in America...
Beyond 1619: Slavery and the Cultures of America | Folklife Today
August 2019 marks 400 years since a group of about 20 Africans were brought to the new colony of Virginia and traded as slaves for food. It was the beginning of African slavery in the continental British colonies that became the United States. The events of 1619 are well documented and the...
blogs.loc.gov
Gullah History | Beaufort Historic Culture | Gullah Culture
Visit Beaufort SC and learn about the history of the Gullah Culture.
www.beaufortsc.org
Christianity will form a substantial part of the post-ACW black identity...
Christian History Timeline: Black Christianity Before the Civil War | Christian History Magazine
Christian History Institute (CHI) provides church history resources and self-study material and publishes the quarterly Christian History Magazine. Our aim is to make Christian history enjoyable and applicable to the widest possible audience.
christianhistoryinstitute.org
African American Christianity
The First Great Awakening led many enslaved people in the United States to convert to Christianity. Through the 18th and 19th centuries, distinct Black churches emerged, seeking autonomy from white Christians. These congregations grew into denominations, and many thrive in the present day. They...
pluralism.org
Black Americans will make an effort to prove they are as capable, creative, and intelligent as any white on their way to establishing their identity, just doing so in their own way. As the alternate Civil War demolished most possibilities of OTL white southern backlash/interference, movements that formed outside the Deep South may take place in this alternate Deep South. Alternately, developments in African American self-determination can become more profound due to them taking place earlier or receiving greater recognition resulting from a lack of interference.
A New African American Identity: The Harlem Renaissance
Between the end of World War I and the mid-1930s, African Americans produced one of the most significant eras of cultural expression in the nation’s history—the Harlem Renaissance.
A Brief History: Black Americans in Higher Education - The Cengage Blog
Dr. Jewrell Rivers highlights the success stories of many Black Americans who contributed to the progress of higher education.
blog.cengage.com
The History of African American Visual Culture - AAIHS
If you were lucky enough to see "The Soul of a Nation: Art in the Age of Black Power," an exhibition that opened at the Tate Modern in 2017 and subsequently traveled to the U.S., you may have come away with a renewed appreciation for the power of images to confront racial oppression and subvert
www.aaihs.org
Oscar Micheaux - Biography - IMDb
Oscar Micheaux. Writer: Within Our Gates. Oscar Micheaux, the first African-American to produce a feature-length film (The Homesteader (1919)) and a sound feature-length film (The Exile (1931)), is not only a major figure in American film for these milestones, but because his oeuvre is a window...
www.imdb.com
I do not think blacks will entirely forsake their continental African heritage to begin establishing their new identity ITTL American Civil War aftermath, but it can form a part of that identity as it integrates American thought and values in the wake of this alternate Civil War.
Both in-universe and for us discussing it, especially as our discussions on whether Lee would have supported the junta or stood by Breckinridge echo what in-universe historians are most likely thinking about ITTL.
I really like how this TL embodies the apocryphal Churchill quote: "Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing after exhausting every other alternative." I like how again and again things progress after a lot of blundering and false starts, it makes everything seem much more real.
I just realized that Richard Kennings, a former slave and resident of the White House when James Madison was there, published his memoir, the first White House memoir, in 1865. He will likely do so here as well.
We had discussed in the first thread how the founders would be viewed who were from Virginia. This book might go a long way toward establishing how at least Madison will be, and the book might even do better than in our timeline because there will be Southerners who might want to use it to argue that the founders really weren't that bad and that it was simply the later Planters who were the truly evil people. While some Northerners might be interested in buying it simply because they want to further the writings of the man and of black people in general, but also look back at a time when things were much simpler and they didn't have to think about just how bad things had been.
We had discussed in the first thread how the founders would be viewed who were from Virginia. This book might go a long way toward establishing how at least Madison will be, and the book might even do better than in our timeline because there will be Southerners who might want to use it to argue that the founders really weren't that bad and that it was simply the later Planters who were the truly evil people. While some Northerners might be interested in buying it simply because they want to further the writings of the man and of black people in general, but also look back at a time when things were much simpler and they didn't have to think about just how bad things had been.
Yeah you're probably right. I don't normally come into threads halfway through and it was probably a mistake. Signing off now.
I think putting (Until Every Drop of Blood is Paid Part II) in parentheses behind the main title would be most informative. And require less effort than a summary.
Oh shit, the TL ended this month, I changed my politics and there's a part two. I wonder what the political background radiation of the United States is like in the present day.
I think a more integrated Black community will probably emphasize their Christianity and "American-ness" rather than look towards Africa for building a self-identity. OTL, African Americans were most likely to claim the US as being their country too, based on their service on the Union Army and their loyalty to the Federal government. Any identity is bound to have this as its foundation, similarly to how many White Americans looked to the Revolutionary War. Embracing their African heritage would only put emphasis on their "foreign" origin (not that White Americans are any less foreign but, you know how White racism works). Pan-Africanism and Black exclusionism often appeared as a result of discrimination, so greater integration is bound to just result in greater insistence that Black Americans are just as American as White Americans. Think, for example, of how Latin American mestizos rarely feel the need to use their Indigenous heritage to build their identities - since they're already considered part of the nation, to do so would seem like separatist.Hello,
At the beginning of Reconstruction ITTL, the search begins for the black people to find a new identity beyond the American Civil War. The concern here is what element or elements form it. Certainly, they want to be seen as a people well beyond the history under the planters and how the latter perceived and portrayed them. The blacks have a need to remember that point in their collective history so that they and others do not forget and head off history repeating itself or becoming the basis of future discrimination.
To replace the recent history as forcibly imposed by the planters, the blacks may start by turning to their roots in continental Africa. While there is a definite record of free blacks arriving in America...
It may not be enough to overcome TTL's recent history. It may be seen then as a historical footnote further obscured by planter efforts, directly or indirectly. Regardless of the efforts by the planters to suppress African culture among their slaves, the latter did find ways to preserve their continental African heritage...Beyond 1619: Slavery and the Cultures of America | Folklife Today
August 2019 marks 400 years since a group of about 20 Africans were brought to the new colony of Virginia and traded as slaves for food. It was the beginning of African slavery in the continental British colonies that became the United States. The events of 1619 are well documented and the...
Gullah History | Beaufort Historic Culture | Gullah Culture
Visit Beaufort SC and learn about the history of the Gullah Culture.www.beaufortsc.org
Christianity will form a substantial part of the post-ACW black identity...
All aspects of this article are relevant up to and beyond the point of departure for this story. The various black Christian ministries will work to dispel pre-ACW notions espoused by not a few white Christian ministries in the planter South...Christian History Timeline: Black Christianity Before the Civil War | Christian History Magazine
Christian History Institute (CHI) provides church history resources and self-study material and publishes the quarterly Christian History Magazine. Our aim is to make Christian history enjoyable and applicable to the widest possible audience.
According to the Christian History Institute article, several black Christian ministries provided the basis for the campaign for women's rights and empowerment in the United States.African American Christianity
The First Great Awakening led many enslaved people in the United States to convert to Christianity. Through the 18th and 19th centuries, distinct Black churches emerged, seeking autonomy from white Christians. These congregations grew into denominations, and many thrive in the present day. They...
Black Americans will make an effort to prove they are as capable, creative, and intelligent as any white on their way to establishing their identity, just doing so in their own way. As the alternate Civil War demolished most possibilities of OTL white southern backlash/interference, movements that formed outside the Deep South may take place in this alternate Deep South. Alternately, developments in African American self-determination can become more profound due to them taking place earlier or receiving greater recognition resulting from a lack of interference.
A New African American Identity: The Harlem Renaissance
Between the end of World War I and the mid-1930s, African Americans produced one of the most significant eras of cultural expression in the nation’s history—the Harlem Renaissance.A Brief History: Black Americans in Higher Education - The Cengage Blog
Dr. Jewrell Rivers highlights the success stories of many Black Americans who contributed to the progress of higher education.The History of African American Visual Culture - AAIHS
If you were lucky enough to see "The Soul of a Nation: Art in the Age of Black Power," an exhibition that opened at the Tate Modern in 2017 and subsequently traveled to the U.S., you may have come away with a renewed appreciation for the power of images to confront racial oppression and subvertOscar Micheaux - Biography - IMDb
Oscar Micheaux. Writer: Within Our Gates. Oscar Micheaux, the first African-American to produce a feature-length film (The Homesteader (1919)) and a sound feature-length film (The Exile (1931)), is not only a major figure in American film for these milestones, but because his oeuvre is a window...
I do not think blacks will entirely forsake their continental African heritage to begin establishing their new identity ITTL American Civil War aftermath, but it can form a part of that identity as it integrates American thought and values in the wake of this alternate Civil War.
Of course! That's why I also left some other details ambiguous. Notably how much Davis knew about the peace negotiations and whether Breckinridge had misled him, including their "Lost Meeting."
I'm afraid I've never heard of that gentleman and don't think Voodou could have been changed that much at this point?
Glad to have you back!
That was one of my guiding philosophies, so to speak
I realized that to have everyone do everything perfectly at once would not be realistic, and that even though the Union are the "good guys" they have to be portrayed as imperfect too, truer to human nature and history. That's already a somewhat common opinion nowadays. "Oh, Jefferson disliked slavery, you see. He thought it was a necessary evil, not a positive good like those men later did!" But this is an interesting point!
Yeah, I think this is the most likely scenario. The Antebellum South is probably not going to be idealized, with greater condemnation of slavery and the planters, but we probably will see some affection for Breckinridge as a "good" and "honorable" man who totally wasn't fighting for slavery and cared for the common man, and for common soldiers who were only fighting for hearth and home and left the cause and embraced the Union as soon as they realized who the true masters of the Confederacy were. Kind of like Rommel and other Nazis for a long time - "Oh, they totally didn't agree with Hitler and Nazism, they were only fighting for Germany!" In fact, that old Lost Cause trope you would see of President Lee freeing the enslaved as soon as the war ended would probably be applied to Breckinridge here, portraying him as a pseudo-abolitionist, insisting that his scheme for Black recruitment would have resulted in full-emancipation not only as a result of desperation but also moral concern, and saying that the Coup proves Breckinridge was never in favor of slavery.
I thought of that but... it didn't seem elegant? Maybe I'm being silly but "Reconstruction: The Second American Revolution (Part II of Until Every Drop of Blood is Paid)" seemed clunky. How does "Reconstruction: The Second American Revolution - A Sequel to Until Every Drop of Blood is Paid" look like instead?
I have no firm plans for the rest of the world and would rather not focus on them until way down the line. For the time, the focus shall remain in the US.
I'm sorry, but "radiation"? A typo, I presume?
I was personally thinking of "Until Every Drop of Blood is Paid II: Electric Boogaloo", but that would just be silly. For one thing, Golan-Globus aren't even a thing in 1865.