The eagle's left head
- Thread starter Lascaris
- Start date
Not unfeasible I presume.
As far as I've read, Ioannis is a decent commander on the field. He would have his father's navy to back him up and perhaps the Catalan company eager for another campaign to gain from, but I guess his level of support would depend on how much Alexandros is willing to spend from his treasury and Longobucco's silver; after all, war has gone long enough and he might want to focus elsewhere.
Then, reading quickly how well Isabella and Philip ruled Achaea and how loved they were here by peasants and barons, I don't think Ioannis' conquest would be too much difficult.
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To come back to Philantropenos, when Alexandros gave his word to Andronikos that Alexios would not return east, how far east did he actually mean ? Like, east of the Ionian sea, or east of the Aegean sea ?
Doesn’t really matter. HE is not returning east. HIS SON is the one who is going east, and he has never been to the east before so it’s not returning.
I'm not sure whom you're talking about. I'm referring to the promise made to Andronikos that in exchange for his brother-in-law Alexios Philantropenos being spared blinding and being exiled to Sicily instead, Alexandros Vatatzes would give his word that Alexios would not return east and be a problem again.
I'm asking on that so to see if Philantropenos can eventually lead forces in the campaign to subjugate Achaea on Ioannis and Maria's behalf, without Alexandros betraying his word to Andronikos.
As for Alexandros himself, if I read correctly, he never made such a promise, instead he just pointed he never returned east after he went astray into his Sicilian adventure, and never challenged the rule of either Michael VIII or Andronikos, as a matter of fact and not in any pledge. After that, if ever Alexandros still lives when the civil war erupts in 1321 he'd be 66 (in good health, he'd not be the first to live that long), there is nothing that prevents him from getting involved to "help" one side or the other.
tbf the Lascarids had a very different approach to the ERE and how they raise soldiers compared to the Palaiologos, and I think they'd work well. I do think the Vatatzes would need to work something out with the pope though, because they're too close to them and the main powers of the med have an easy casus belli. Maybe the Pope says all the Greeks in those lands follow the Byzantine rite or another rite all to themselves while the Greeks in these lands continue to do their own thing which is encouraged by the Vatatzes family as protectors of orthodoxy in the lands they rule.
The ongoing discussion about if for that his rule be accepted should approach more to the Papacy and/or that to get recognized he should or 'd be best if he or that the Sicilian branch of his descendants would convert...
And, while, it indeed, would have, as noted/discussed, clear benefices. Also, I think that should be noted, too, that it would have come at the price to cut his/their blood/historical links to their forebears lands and to alienate and risk to lose not only their own Greeks subjects support but also from those of Asia Minor.
One, possible, way to attempt to avoid this could be either be too strong or to have the alliance/supports too powerful as for that any kind of potential would be Crusaders would need to think twice before to ever think to attack Sicilia...
Also, perhaps, would be possible to somewhat circumvent the risks that would have for a non Roman Catholic reigning, for taking, if possible, a Merovingian like way and following the Ancient Frankish model and eventually, the Vatatzes 'd turn on the Kingdom rulers, in all but name.
And, while, it indeed, would have, as noted/discussed, clear benefices. Also, I think that should be noted, too, that it would have come at the price to cut his/their blood/historical links to their forebears lands and to alienate and risk to lose not only their own Greeks subjects support but also from those of Asia Minor.
One, possible, way to attempt to avoid this could be either be too strong or to have the alliance/supports too powerful as for that any kind of potential would be Crusaders would need to think twice before to ever think to attack Sicilia...
Also, perhaps, would be possible to somewhat circumvent the risks that would have for a non Roman Catholic reigning, for taking, if possible, a Merovingian like way and following the Ancient Frankish model and eventually, the Vatatzes 'd turn on the Kingdom rulers, in all but name.
A question, given the times, for this Marriage to be possible, get the either Churches bless, shouldn't either Ioannis converts to the Roman Catholicism or Maria to the Greek/Byzantine one?
Tbf I'd think we'd see the island be a patchwork of religions ittl too considering that Frederick won't be able to force convert alexandros' subjects, and I could see the two drifting further apart until Frederick's death.
The Muslims prob be forced to assimilate though, even if a few would have privileges given to them by the rulers.
I do think the Achaeans would welcome Vatatzes rule considering how often the land changed hands otl I could see it being a boon to them. The silk industry would do well and it'd be a boon for the Vatatzes, and may piss off the Venetians. Considering alexandros' heir is a competent one he'd have a good time playing different players against each other.
I mean it is a very good gift, and alexandros can't exactly attack his own territory (Calabria) if Frederick does as otl which would make his life really hard.
I think the excess capacity is all that needed. There are only so many pronoiai to be given in east Sicily and Calabria. Even if we discount the Catalans, I think there is a bit of additional manpower in the lascarid army that would have been financially ruinous in the long term.
Morea is a great opportunity for Alexandros. Its addition to his domain would significantly increase the number of subjects, economy (silk in the north, olive oil in the south) and his diplomatic wiggle room.
How many more subjects? We know that during the early 16th century ottoman Morea had around 55k households (50k christian and 5k muslim) and the population had just receovered from war and conquest. Another thing to take into account is the bubonic plague and potential impact it had on the population.
Overall, I think a conservative estimation might be at 220-275k people.
Both from their point of view. I assume that the one to resume the war would be Frederick same as in OTL. In a few years from now Emperor Henry will decent upon Italy and will try his best to assert imperial control. His death by malaria might be butterflied or not.
Vatatzes might have two option in front of him:
- Follow Robert and attack Frederick. Take advantage of Robert's distraction and gobble up the whole Sicily, presenting the Angevins with a fait accompli.
- Follow Frederick for a full scale attack on the Angevins. Somehow it feels the worse option, since a victorious Frederick that controls both the mainland and western Sicily would be too powerful.
That's the thing though: very soon the Babylonian Captivity of the Papacy will start. The Avignon Popes simply do not have the clout and power of their predecessors to decisively act against Vatatzes.
Perhaps, but I think that would be in the best interests to keep protecting the Muslim community, and not only for tax purposes but for that it would serve to ad more loyal subjects and as a kind of counterbalance to the Romans ones.
Problem is that the Palaiologos have completely squandered the potential of the ERE by giving out massive land grants and tax exemptions to aristocrats with little to no military obligations as a price for helping them take over the throne. What is already given cannot easily be taken back except through force, and in the end the Laskarids were deposed primarily because they tried to fight those corrupt aristocrat for resources. Even if the Laskarids were to find themselves back on the throne right now, they would have to fight those corrupt aristocrats and possibly the church as well for the revenue of those lands. Plus, the Byzantine system of anyone and their mother having a claim to the throne is clearly inferior to the western one, so I believe a degree of deep cleansing and replacing the elite with more loyal and Western-minded ones is somewhat of a necessity.
They would also alienate their Latin subjects if they don’t convert, which they now have many, in both Sicily and in the remnant of the Latin Empire itself. Hence the need for a compromised approach. Union of Churches. Recognise the pope as the supreme leader, but have the Church remain under Byzantine rite. Have a very clear agreement with the pope.
Too convoluted, and the Laskarids already have a very good claim to the throne. No real need to do something so complicated. Ruling as a ‘shogun’ always end up with the original monarchs retaking power or the ’shogun’ fully usurping the throne.
That is correct, but after that? And even without the clear support/antagonism of the popes, it is still very worthwhile to have good relations with the kingdoms of Western Europe, it is something that is hard to do if you remained a ‘schismatic’. Besides, a lot of the MC’s own subjects are Latins. There definitely needs some kind of permanent settlement of sorts. Unlike the Palaiologian attempt however, the MC likely has a better chance precisely because he’s got so many Latins and Greeks living and working together side by side, so a melting pot of sorts is already developing.
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Certainly a very good idea. They were extremely loyal to the Hohfenstaufens and served as excellent soldiers, although they are now in the hands of Charles II of Anjou in Lucera I believe.Not sure if they have been sold to slavery yet in this timeline.
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For Frederick to resume war against Angevins, that unavoidably means dealing with the Vatatzes in some way before or at the same time.
His throwing of Alexandros' Calabrian holdings under the Angevin bus has spectacularly backfired with the Despotate's decisive victory at Castrovillari. No doubt, there remains quite some bad blood between Frederick and his most powerful vassal now, a vassal with a valid claim to the crown.
Frederick was already distrustful of the Vatatzes' power, hence his giving away of Vatatzes' Calabria to the Angevins, but now that Alexandros and the Vatatzes house is even more powerful, and I surmise a confrontation is going to happen somewhere down the line. And if he is to resume the war with the Angevins, he might as well use the occasion to reduce the Vatatzes' influence by forcing them in a position they have to pick a side. A civil war in the making perhaps.
So either the former option, or a third one, that being staying neutral and telling Frederick "since you were so helpful in Calabria...".
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I think the best option is for the Ottomans to take over for a little bit to break things up and allow the remaining aristocrats and clergy to acquiesce to the necessary reforms. Or conquer the latin states bit by bit and restructure old greece that way. They already have Morea after all, and if Ionnias does a good job I can see the peasants and some nobles happy to see the Lascarids back in form.
at this point they don't have as many latin subjects as you'd invision. Maybe Ionias may also be catholic but the only thing they'd gain at this point is maybe Naples seeing them as good vassals and maybe them not calling France in to fight them and take back calabria (maybe the same situation would happen with the hungarian king later down the line but defo not something they'd need to think of now), and I think even if they convert it'd not really make a difference because the entire thing is just a way to discredit them. Saying that they're from Greece is just as good at that point.
They have been sold as per otl I think. I think the next king Robert would be a good king for the Muslims though, which may be good for them. I think long term though if his son dies earlier than his death the Hungarians will try to take over which would be interesting as the despotate would have to act. It's interesting that in otl both Sicily and Naples loses their kings by the third generation after the war of the Vespers which the despots of Syracuse could definitely exploit. I'd really like to see it culminate in a Hungarian knights vs the Sicilians with the Sicilians playing with hand cannons.
I could defo see Alexandros or Ionias ditching the Sicilians and claim the island for themselves eventually as they all descend from the Houhenstaufens which ruled in Sicily. I don't see the Vatatzes fighting for Frederick in the second round especially if Frederick can't give something enticing to Alexandros (maybe if Frederick would allow Alexandros to take Basilicata and Aquila/Puglia he'd stick with Alexandros) but I don't think he'll do so. I think Alexandros would sit the next conflict out and see who wins before acting (so he probably would help Charles II this time round). Considering that he and the lands he rule are treated more and more as an independent entity it may be good for Alexandros to act like that because he and his descendants won't be fully trusted by both families because of their bloodline.
Once the Ottomans enter Europe, it would be a difficult fight that would necessitate every ounce of resource the Laskarids could summon. They are definitely gonna be a powerful enemy, not one where the Laskarids could easily use to their advantage and then destroy. Again, the Catholic Church would be a much better ally in this regard than the Orthodox Church. If the Laskarids can pull their strings right, they may be able to gain control over the Hospitallers and with it their land in Western Europe much like how the Spanish monarchs took over the holy orders in their vicinity.They will likely still be able to scare the remaining Roman elite into accepting them as rulers and adopt reforms.
There are many Latins in the Italian possessions they own, especially the barons. In Achaia, the barons are again wholly Latins. It would be extremely difficult to deal with various lords in their possession if the lords are Catholic while the rulers are 'schismatic' Greeks.
Perhaps not in this timeline due to the Angevins consistently losing battles against the Laskarids. The Muslims of Lucera weren't exactly slouches, they have resisted Charles I once and compelled the Angevins to enter terms before. With the distraction, they can probably fight off the Charles II, assuming he could be bothered to deal with them instead of the Laskarids.
In this scenario, a conversion is a must.
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Ramontxo
Donor
To be in communion with the western Church and the Pope yes. To abandon Eastern Christianity no.
(Uniate Churchs)
(Uniate Churchs)
I could see the Vatatzes replacing the barons with local elites or with exiled elites that Vatatzes brought along to Sicily/from Asia Minor. The nobles obviously would be horrified by it but I won't see the peasantry complaining about this.
I think the Lucerans get fucked over as per otl tho. idk about their fate @Lascaris
tbf the problem is that they can't afford to piss off the greeks in the islands and being orthodox is a large part of it.
Maybe later it would work (ionias converts?), especially as the Empire collapses and the Vatatzes needs the French to help them, especially as the Serbians and everyone else falters and falls. I do think a period of time where Constantinople is taken would be a very fun scenario as it'd really solidify Old Hellas and especially Southern Italy as Greek and part of the Empire tho. We'd also prob see an earlier Renaissance as the Despotate of the two Sicilies brings in Greek texts and causes them to be popular in Europe earlier than otl. So I think long term it'd make sense but for now converting is of no use for the Vatatzes family.
I think we'd see a Neo-Byzantine rite where it's even closer to Orthodoxy for the Sicilians and Greeks under the despotate.
On other things considering the collapse of the Byzantines after Andronikos I could see the Desoptate taking over the rest of Morea, Epirus and Athens and treat the commoners well, but it would incur the wrath of Venice. A Venice-Despotate war is defo something I could see coming. Maybe they bring Genoa as their allies and give them trading rights? What would their relations be with Serbia too?
I don't see the Despotate and the ERE being of good terms because there's no way in hell Andronikos would see Alexandros' incursions in the mainland well, especially as Morea is now the property of Alexandros. Charles II is really sly giving that land to Alexandros. It ties him to Naples and pits him against the ERE and Frederick. It also is an opportunity for Alexandros and his descendants.
Finally would moving the capital to Messania be a good move for Alexandros' descendants? Being in the straits would be great and they would be a sea-faring empire anyways, and they'd be in the centre of their italian pocessions.
PS: if the Despotate gets Crete back from one of its revolts (the 1362 revolt would be a good one) it'd be great for the despotate.
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the problem is that the local greeks hated it, after all they fought wars to be rid of Rome. I could see it happening though especially as the Ottomans roll through.
After that (1378) the Western Schism comes, when there will be two Popes and briefly three. The Papacy(ies) ability to deal with the Despotate will be even more limited.
Tbf it's more that they could use the stability from not getting France, Hungary and Aragon being able to partition them due to being orthodox, and using them as leverage against the ottomans when that time comes, but tbf they may be able to do it without that if they're sly enough. Getting some kind of unity is good tho especially if the ottomans take Constantinople and cutting off that would be better for the state.