WI: no high seas fleet?

What if the Germans decide that they are never going to challenge the British Navy in an open bottle?
Yay, drinking contest!

Kidding aside, it can´t be mentioned enough in these discussions that expansion of the German navy was not just a personal pet project of Wilhelm II. in the 1890s, but an idea with relatively widespread support and it seemed useful for a number of poltical interests within Germany. The question remained what kind of fleet to build. The debate initially leaned towards a cruiser-heavy fleet with even the emperor initially supporting that choice. The balance tilted around 1897 when Admiral Hollmann - a proponent of that strategy - was unable to get the requested funding and was replaced by Admiral Tirpitz. Tirpitz was the leading proponent of the battlewagon faction of course and in 1897 published his risk fleet theory, which became the leading theory. He also proved to be a much smoother political operator and managed to get the naval law of 1898 passed, not least by providing an apparent long term plan. Even then the risk fleet was not the general accepted theory as the law provided for a relatively balanced fleet.

The real change came during the Boer war, when the RN stopped and searched German vessels. Suddenly the extensive German merchant fleet seemed very vulnerable and the risk fleet gained a lot more support. Tirpitz used that to justify a massive expansion of the fleet - almost entirely for the battle line - with the 1900 naval law, which went through the Reichstag with a 2/3rd majority. Even that was largely seen as a defensive move by many in Germany and an alliance with Britain remained the favored outcome. Of course it was not perceived that way in Britain and the Royal Navy found it a useful tool for securing its own funding. We know how it turned out.

But I think we can see a number of possibilities for averting or limiting the Anglo-German naval race here. Three scenarios would be:

Had Hollmann successfully managed to get funding through the Reichstag by providing his own longterm plan akin to the 98 naval law - the Reichstag liked the long-term stability it suggested - Germany might have built more cruisers instead of battleships. An epansion of the German navy could still raise tensions with Britain, but probably not to the same degree. The German navy would still have built a number of battleships, but mostly more and better cruisers than otl. Probably the alliances would develop very different from otl and we might not even have seen a Great War at all. Keeping otl trends an at least vaguely pro-German British Empire would mean Italy is more firmly in the German camp as well and until the late 1910s France and Russia alone can´t really compete with a solid central power alliance. So I´d say danger of a direct clash is limited. With Russia getting stronger that might shift late in the 1910s, but than again Britain might also be drawn closer to an actual alliance with Germany then. Of course more German presence around the world offers plenty of chances for new conflicts, so there could be all kinds of wrenches thrown into that. A more aggressive Panthersprung? A new German attempt to gain a foothold in the Americas? A German cruiser accidentially sinking a British passenger liner? This has the potential to go better for Germany, but they still have plenty of chances to fuck this up.

Had Tirpitz not gained the handle of the mentioned incidents during the Boer war, an expansion beyond the 1898 law might have not happend or at least as reaction to France or Russia and not as radical as otl 1900 naval laws. Britain´s naval lobbyists still might use German naval expansion as a tool for getting funding, but the public focus would not concentrate as much on possible conflict with Germany. Germany would be one of several middling navies, given industrial developments probably develop in the medium term into the second navy in Europe, but not to the degree to threaten Britain. Britain would in that case probably try to maintain a certain balance of power in Europe, but not strongly alligned either way without another reason or until another navy starts to expand rapidly. If Russia still gets trounced against Japan it is a good candidate, as it otl planned a massive expansion in the late 1910s. The German armies probably would have been better equipped in this scenario, danger of getting embroiled in non-European conflicts is no higher for Germany than otl and Britain would be not as hostile. Still no guarantee that Germany is not seen as threat to the balance of power by Britain, but I´d say chances again favor a better outcome.

Had Britain and Germany openly discussed naval expansion with each other either before or in the first years after passing the 1900 naval laws, the naval race or at least its duration likewise may have been avoided. Bethmann-Hollweg tried to engage in discussions to that end in 1912, but of course by that time it was too late. Open discussions might lead to a better understanding of the respective goals and positions, in the best case with some coordination short of an outright alliance, but with chances to grow in the medium term. In the worst case there would have been some acrimony, but at least not as strong as otl and with the chance the British find a new naval rival before an atl war in Europe happens. Germany would probably still build a fairly sizeable fleet in this case, but limited by whatever understanding they reach with Britain.
 
The French and Russian navies help them against Germany no more than the German navy would help Berlin against the Entente
Oh yeah? Imagine Germany in WW1 without Britain on French/Russian side. Without blockade of Germany. Or with blockade of Russia.
 

Deleted member 94680

Oh yeah? Imagine Germany in WW1 without Britain on French/Russian side. Without blockade of Germany. Or with blockade of Russia.
It was the German invasion of Belgium - on land - that brought Britain into the War against Germany. Granted, no blockade would be a significant butterfly, but seeing as though the HSF did the square root of cock all to prevent the blockade (what with it being a distant blockade - "If the British do that, the role of our navy will be a sad one,") a lack of a HSF won't affect that. What blockade of Russia?
 
It was the German invasion of Belgium - on land - that brought Britain into the War against Germany. Granted, no blockade would be a significant butterfly, but seeing as though the HSF did the square root of cock all to prevent the blockade (what with it being a distant blockade - "If the British do that, the role of our navy will be a sad one,") a lack of a HSF won't affect that. What blockade of Russia?
Yes, but without Britain ( giving the French and Russians massive naval superiority ) in the war, there's no way that Germany might be blockaded by France and Russia. And with a strong navy, maybe Germany can blockade France and/or Russia ( Arkhangelsk, later Romanov on Murman, hell, why not Vladivostok too, without Britain in war to take Qingdao ).
What I wanted to say is that strong navy has much sense for Germany in a war against France and Russia.
 
How about a German strategy based on a cruiser fleet to interdict merchant sea lanes?
The concent of convoys was not well established prior to WWI.
Could the Germans speculate that all they needed to do is not beat the French and British in a battleship vs. battleship battle, but rather sever logistics?
This could be an alternative to a not-yet-ripe submarine approach.
 

Driftless

Donor
Had Hollmann successfully managed to get funding through the Reichstag by providing his own longterm plan akin to the 98 naval law - the Reichstag liked the long-term stability it suggested - Germany might have built more cruisers instead of battleships. An epansion of the German navy could still raise tensions with Britain, but probably not to the same degree.

Had Hollmann successfully managed to get funding through the Reichstag by providing his own longterm plan akin to the 98 naval law - the Reichstag liked the long-term stability it suggested - Germany might have built more cruisers instead of battleships. An epansion of the German navy could still raise tensions with Britain, but probably not to the same degree.

Whether that strategy would be successful in practice, or not, It would change British (and others?) naval spending somewhat. Might you see an earlier appearance of the battlecruiser as the designated cruiser killer? AIUI, The armored cruisers of the era were nearly as expensive as battleships, but the capability didn't match the price tag. So, if you're going to spend too much on a ship, go bigger....
 

Deleted member 94680

Yes, but without Britain ( giving the French and Russians massive naval superiority ) in the war, there's no way that Germany might be blockaded by France and Russia.
And as I said, it’s the German invasion of Belgium that brings the British into the War. Britain in the War will be using their Royal Navy. They’re not going to leave the greatest fleet in the world at home just cos Kaiser Bill ain’t got no ships.
And with a strong navy, maybe Germany can blockade France and/or Russia ( Arkhangelsk, later Romanov on Murman, hell, why not Vladivostok too, without Britain in war to take Qingdao ).
So now the Germans have a HSF bigger than OTL rather than just the OTL one?
What I wanted to say is that strong navy has much sense for Germany in a war against France and Russia.
It makes no sense. It made no sense OTL it makes even less sense in a War where Germany shares land borders with its’ two principal opponents and she doesn’t have to worry about Britain.
 
US 8in howitzer, made in early 1940s, served in Croatian army firing the shells in 1995. Italian 90mm AA gun - about the same. Hispano II cannons, taken from Mosquitoes, still listed as AA guns in 1990s.
We still have some US 155 Howitzers, made in WW2, modernized (mostly by being given a new designation) for Korea, serving in the Portuguese Army in a reserve Group.
A few years ago a friend of mine with lots of experience in field artillery insisted that it was the best gun ever made. They still fire regualarly and seem to work as good as when they were new.
 
How about a German strategy based on a cruiser fleet to interdict merchant sea lanes?
The concent of convoys was not well established prior to WWI.
Could the Germans speculate that all they needed to do is not beat the French and British in a battleship vs. battleship battle, but rather sever logistics?
This could be an alternative to a not-yet-ripe submarine approach.
This is called the Juene Ecole (Small School) strategy that France has pursued for much of the 19th C

The British were wise to it and German attempts at it failed in both World Wars
 

mial42

Gone Fishin'
And as I said, it’s the German invasion of Belgium that brings the British into the War. Britain in the War will be using their Royal Navy. They’re not going to leave the greatest fleet in the world at home just cos Kaiser Bill ain’t got no ships.

So now the Germans have a HSF bigger than OTL rather than just the OTL one?

It makes no sense. It made no sense OTL it makes even less sense in a War where Germany shares land borders with its’ two principal opponents and she doesn’t have to worry about Britain.
It does make sense for a war against France and Russia, since it allows Germany to blockade them and avoid being blockaded by them. It's only once Britain is involved that it doesn't make sense, and British involvement was by no means certain in a Germany/A-H vs Russia/France war in the decades prior to WW1.
 
How about a German strategy based on a cruiser fleet to interdict merchant sea lanes?
The concent of convoys was not well established prior to WWI.
Could the Germans speculate that all they needed to do is not beat the French and British in a battleship vs. battleship battle, but rather sever logistics?
This could be an alternative to a not-yet-ripe submarine approach.
The concept of convoys goes back at least to Spanish Silver Fleets of the XVI century. Probably to the Romans, and quite reasonably to the Ancient Greeks.
The issue for the RN in both WW1 was a cost/benefict ratio. Would the ships not sunk make up for the delays and reduced flexibility caused by the convoys?
 
You forgot to mention that it was cannon fodder for ships laid down a mere two years later.
Not quite.
It would have fitted perfectly in Jutland, actually better than many ships that fought there.
In 1912 the RN introduced the 15'', but the real game changer was the all or nothing protection scheme introduced in the Nevadas laid down by the USN that same year. Without all or nothing a QE could be mission killed by 12'' shells. The ships that would outclass the Arkansas would have been in the same navy, because with all or nothing protection a Nevada would be unlikely to be mission killed by Arkansas and would be in a good position to first criple and then finish the older ship.
But it could still fight almost anything else with a decent chance.
On the other hand, the Standards (Starting with the Nevada class) could still fight almost anything in the world without a USN flag until 1941.
 

Deleted member 94680

It does make sense for a war against France and Russia, since it allows Germany to blockade them and avoid being blockaded by them. It's only once Britain is involved that it doesn't make sense, and British involvement was by no means certain in a Germany/A-H vs Russia/France war in the decades prior to WW1.
The Germans would need to build a larger fleet than OTL to be able to blockade Russia and France. Both countries have access through the Mediterranean and have significant other coastlines. There’s no way the HSF of OTL is large enough to blockade the approaches of Atlantic France, Arctic Russia, Mediterranean France, Black Sea Russia and Pacific Russia. That leaves the question of where exactly the various squadrons of this world-spanning blockade would be based from? Germany may have Colonies in most corners of the world, but their major facilities were lacking as the careers of their raiders and the East Asia Squadron proved. The German battleships were ‘short legged’ as they were designed for a Decisive Battle in North Sea and not much else. World ranging blockade duties would mean a complete redesign of German warships when the decision to blockade is taken. There’s also a real risk a German blockade of France and Russia would bring Britain into the War through some ‘incident’ or other.
 
The Germans would need to build a larger fleet than OTL to be able to blockade Russia and France. Both countries have access through the Mediterranean and have significant other coastlines. There’s no way the HSF of OTL is large enough to blockade the approaches of Atlantic France, Arctic Russia, Mediterranean France, Black Sea Russia and Pacific Russia. That leaves the question of where exactly the various squadrons of this world-spanning blockade would be based from? Germany may have Colonies in most corners of the world, but their major facilities were lacking as the careers of their raiders and the East Asia Squadron proved. The German battleships were ‘short legged’ as they were designed for a Decisive Battle in North Sea and not much else. World ranging blockade duties would mean a complete redesign of German warships when the decision to blockade is taken. There’s also a real risk a German blockade of France and Russia would bring Britain into the War through some ‘incident’ or other.
There is absolutely no way the British are going to allow anyone to be in a position to blockade France (or, therefore, Russia). The most a German navy can do without alarming the RN is keep the sealanes to Germany open (i.e. be able to fight the French Atlantic/Channel fleet) and dominate the Baltic (i.e. fight the Russian Baltic fleet). Anything built for worldwide commerce raiding is going to seriously upset the people who control worldwide commerce, which is not the Russians.
 

mial42

Gone Fishin'
The Germans would need to build a larger fleet than OTL to be able to blockade Russia and France. Both countries have access through the Mediterranean and have significant other coastlines. There’s no way the HSF of OTL is large enough to blockade the approaches of Atlantic France, Arctic Russia, Mediterranean France, Black Sea Russia and Pacific Russia. That leaves the question of where exactly the various squadrons of this world-spanning blockade would be based from? Germany may have Colonies in most corners of the world, but their major facilities were lacking as the careers of their raiders and the East Asia Squadron proved. The German battleships were ‘short legged’ as they were designed for a Decisive Battle in North Sea and not much else. World ranging blockade duties would mean a complete redesign of German warships when the decision to blockade is taken. There’s also a real risk a German blockade of France and Russia would bring Britain into the War through some ‘incident’ or other.
A blockade does not need to be complete to have an effect. Blockading the Black Sea, Baltic, and France (with A-H and possibly Italy) will not cripple France or Russia, but it will weaken them. Conversely, avoiding a blockade at Franco/Russian hands is hugely important for Germany.
 
Assuming the Germans aren't going to try and compete with the British, the battle fleet will be sized for riskflotte strategy against the French and overmatch against the Russian Baltic Fleet, likely counting on torpedo ships and rapid shifts via the Kiel Canal to handle both if they have to - which frankly amount to the same number of ships.

For the predreadnought era that's pretty consistently a force of 14 or 15 battleships, and then something like six dreadnoughts by 1915, maybe more as the dreadnought era affords them a chance to overmatch the French and Russian Baltic fleets combined.
 
Ok.

Anyone here got idea how much a battleship/cruiser/destroyer cost at that time and what could be bought for that money/

And without Hochseeflotte would the British even enter ww1?
As a reference, British pre-Dreadnaught class battleships went from somewhat over £1,000,000 for the Formidable class, built 1898 -1901 to £1,651,339 for the Nelson class, built 1905 - 1908 and from £1,785,683 for the HMS Dreadnaught, built 1905 - 1906 to £3,014,103 for the Queen Elizabeth class, built 1912 - 1914. £1,-- back then was worth around £320,-- (a pint of beer in your local pub would cost 2-3d) or US $ 450,-- in today's money, so the Queen Elizabeth class would be around £1,000,000,000 in today's money, compared to £3,000,000,000 for her uptime namesake.
 
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Driftless

Donor
As a reference, British pre-Dreadnaught class battleships went from somewhat over £1,000,000 for the Formidable class, built 1898 -1901 to £1,651,339 for the Nelson class, built 1905 - 1908 and from £1,785,683 for the HMS Dreadnaught, built 1905 - 1906 to £3,014,103 for the Queen Elizabeth class, built 1912 - 1914. £1,-- back then was worth around £320,-- or US $ 450,-- in today's money, so the Queen Elizabeth class would be around £1,000,000,000 in today's money, compared to £3,000,000,000 for her uptime namesake.

Any comparative numbers for the Armored Cruisers, or even the Light Cruisers?
 
Whether that strategy would be successful in practice, or not, It would change British (and others?) naval spending somewhat. Might you see an earlier appearance of the battlecruiser as the designated cruiser killer? AIUI, The armored cruisers of the era were nearly as expensive as battleships, but the capability didn't match the price tag. So, if you're going to spend too much on a ship, go bigger....
The design of the battle cruiser, far more than a dreadnought, requires steam turbines to be practical, so it may not come about that much earlier. Certainly possible that the idea becomes much more popular than otl if Germany builds a large number of armoured cruisers. Of course if Germany builds few capital ships the RN focus might be on other nations instead and German build strategies might be of secondary importance.
Or maybe development of the armoured cruiser might move more into the direction of heavy cruisers with long range and high speed, while armament remains in the 21-24 cm range. Possible if the focus for cruisers shifts further away from battle line support to independent raiding and counter raiding. What if Germany considers battles against capital ships a waste and devotes its budget to long range raiders? Theoretically that might lead to a 17 000 ton ship (roughly the size of an Invincible) with only 21cm guns, but huge turbine engines, a lot of storage space and large fuel reserves instead of a battlecruiser by say 1908. Simply because for their doctrine such a heavy cruiser is worth as much as a battlecruiser. And which capital ship could catch that?
And any German naval strategy will certainly include building some battleships. OTL the budget restritctions and doctrine meant that German battlecruisers were more or less early fast battleships intended to supplement the battle line. Fully buying into raiding strategy might lead to the desire to have some raiding capacity with new battleships. Thus atl German dreadnoughts might instead resemble otl German battlecruisers.
Given that otl no one ever really went entirely with the cruiser strategy while it was practicable (i.e. before aerial recon is a major concern) there are a lot of possiblities how this plays out, all of them possible.
 
Any comparative numbers for the Armored Cruisers, or even the Light Cruisers?
Wikipedia has good numbers on armoured cruisers.

The drakes (1900) cost about a million. The Monmouths (last ac) cost about 1.4 million.

I would need to dig and check sources to get the light cruiser costs.
 
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