For Want of a Word – Stolypin endures

You are comparing what with what? OTL France and UK of 1920s with the SU of 1920s? Or the OTL France and UK of 1920s with ITTL Russia of 1920s? In the last case you can't make any definite comparison because @Stenkarazin did not, yet, came with a description of that period, which makes any comparison meaningless by definition. Of course, each of us can express an opinion on how things may look like but the "real" future is defined exclusively by OPs author.
Come on guys, we all know that whatever the timeline Imperial Russia cannot be as crappy as SU, if only because Imperial bureaucrats are paternalist bourgeois reactionaries who do not have the necessary zeal to murder, deport and terrorize their own people (nor do they have the New Faith requiring this in the first place).

Any TL where Lenin stays forever at the terraces of café L'Odéon like the obnoxious little polemicist he was is a better TL than the one we live in.

Work is requesting its due, so I won't have much time this week, but I should comme back around next Monday with a installment focused on Russia after the end of the war (demobilization, parades, hopes, incompetence).
 
You are comparing what with what? OTL France and UK of 1920s with the SU of 1920s? Or the OTL France and UK of 1920s with ITTL Russia of 1920s? In the last case you can't make any definite comparison because @Stenkarazin did not, yet, came with a description of that period, which makes any comparison meaningless by definition. Of course, each of us can express an opinion on how things may look like but the "real" future is defined exclusively by OPs author.

I say, for the next times, that while Russia ITTL is in a much better situation than OTL due to no CW and no Revolution she is still hardly in a good position and imply (like in the that post and in previous) that France and UK are unfunny places at the same level of her is a mistake.
Her economic situation was already the worse of all the entente and the political and social problem that had caused the 1917 event are still here while Nicky as usuall had took the wrong decision by surrounding himself with yesman, all while the postwar problems will soon hurt the nation and will be summed up to the previous problems, meaning that the nation is up for a rough ride...and this will also be reflected on her foreign policy
France and UK even in OTL had more instrument to weather all this problem and while shacken they managed relatively well the postwar as they have much more modern and flexible political system, even if the war planted and nutrished the seed of the decline of their empires...and ITTL their general situation is much better (hell even the italian one) with the war shorter and no communist revolution in Russia, an event that had repercussion all over the world at the time.

Not considering that everyone will face also the inevitable postwar recession, due much for the reconversion from wartime to peacetime of the economy and more importanly by the Spanish flu
 
I say, for the next times, that while Russia ITTL is in a much better situation than OTL due to no CW and no Revolution she is still hardly in a good position and imply (like in the that post and in previous) that France and UK are unfunny places at the same level of her is a mistake.
Her economic situation was already the worse of all the entente and the political and social problem that had caused the 1917 event are still here while Nicky as usuall had took the wrong decision by surrounding himself with yesman, all while the postwar problems will soon hurt the nation and will be summed up to the previous problems, meaning that the nation is up for a rough ride...and this will also be reflected on her foreign policy
France and UK even in OTL had more instrument to weather all this problem and while shacken they managed relatively well the postwar as they have much more modern and flexible political system, even if the war planted and nutrished the seed of the decline of their empires...and ITTL their general situation is much better (hell even the italian one) with the war shorter and no communist revolution in Russia, an event that had repercussion all over the world at the time.

Not considering that everyone will face also the inevitable postwar recession, due much for the reconversion from wartime to peacetime of the economy and more importanly by the Spanish flu
With the Americans not being involved as much then Spanish Flu may be butterflied entirely ( consensus is its origin was a mix of American and European strains combing via intermediate animal based hosts in transit camps ). Similarly if Russia is paying its debts then the British and French are less indebted ( OTL as guarantors for Russian debt to the US they picked up the can for that as well as their direct loans that went bad) so the Depression may be more limited.
 
I say, for the next times, that while Russia ITTL is in a much better situation than OTL due to no CW and no Revolution she is still hardly in a good position and imply (like in the that post and in previous) that France and UK are unfunny places at the same level of her is a mistake.
Her economic situation was already the worse of all the entente and the political and social problem that had caused the 1917 event are still here while Nicky as usuall had took the wrong decision by surrounding himself with yesman, all while the postwar problems will soon hurt the nation and will be summed up to the previous problems, meaning that the nation is up for a rough ride...and this will also be reflected on her foreign policy
France and UK even in OTL had more instrument to weather all this problem and while shacken they managed relatively well the postwar as they have much more modern and flexible political system, even if the war planted and nutrished the seed of the decline of their empires...and ITTL their general situation is much better (hell even the italian one) with the war shorter and no communist revolution in Russia, an event that had repercussion all over the world at the time.

Not considering that everyone will face also the inevitable postwar recession, due much for the reconversion from wartime to peacetime of the economy and more importanly by the Spanish flu
As usual, generalities and more generalities with no facts or specifics. This starts getting boring.

To start with the “yes man”: were Witte and Stolypin in that category? Both were Nicholas choice for PM. A.F.Trepov, one more OTL PM was called “modern day Stolypin” and he was chosen again the Empress will.

The same goes for the rest. Of course, there are going to be problems but an abstract pontification about the “instruments” is pretty much meaningless and not even necessarily correct and please get it: there is no (unless author wants it) communist revolution in pot-war Russia and in certain aspects the domestic problems are lesser than before the war.
 
With the Americans not being involved as much then Spanish Flu may be butterflied entirely ( consensus is its origin was a mix of American and European strains combing via intermediate animal based hosts in transit camps ). Similarly if Russia is paying its debts then the British and French are less indebted ( OTL as guarantors for Russian debt to the US they picked up the can for that as well as their direct loans that went bad) so the Depression may be more limited.
AFAIK, all Russian orders in the US had been paid in advance with gold and by the end of OTL war only 17% of paid for equipment had been delivered.

The debts to France and UK is a different issue but part of the debt to France would be covered by the deposits frozen by the French government when war started. Anyway, these debts are not supposed to be paid off immediately as a lump sum, just as the pre-war loans. Taking into an account that the British and French companies had been heavily investing into the Russian pre-war economy and that, unlike OTL, these investments are not being lost, the parties involved are more interested in continued cooperation rather than in confrontation. Judging by the fact that in OTL the American companies had been interested (until they were screwed by the Soviets) in the investments even into the Soviet economy, it is reasonable to expect that the trend would be stronger in this TL.

A potentially interesting question is what is going to happen with the items ordered in the US and paid for but not delivered. While Russia definitely can use the locomotives, it hardly needs more rifles.
 
Come on guys, we all know that whatever the timeline Imperial Russia cannot be as crappy as SU, if only because Imperial bureaucrats are paternalist bourgeois reactionaries who do not have the necessary zeal to murder, deport and terrorize their own people (nor do they have the New Faith requiring this in the first place).

Any TL where Lenin stays forever at the terraces of café L'Odéon like the obnoxious little polemicist he was is a better TL than the one we live in.

Work is requesting its due, so I won't have much time this week, but I should comme back around next Monday with a installment focused on Russia after the end of the war (demobilization, parades, hopes, incompetence).
Incompetence always was a factor (and it was anything but uniquely Russian phenomena) but IMO it was not up to a degree that completely ignores facts of the life: after all, quite a few things that had not been done before WWI had been done or in a process of being done during the war including the big items like a completion of the TransSib opening of port Murmansk (warm water port, hurrah, hurrah, all Russian problems gone! 😂) and railroad from it. Even prodrazverstka was figured out and in your TL its implementation started alleviating supply issues in the big cities. So bureaucracy was bad but not useless.

Cynically, a byproduct of the big losses is a lessened pressure on the land issue solution and in your TL at least some of the new areas (and those seriously devastated during the war) can be used for the resettlement (cheaper than migration to Siberia and helps to “correct” demographic balance). Another factor is that numbers of the industrial proletariat kept growing during the war and the effective salaries had been increasing making this occupation more attractive.

Another interesting shift is demographics of the officers corp: by the end of war most of the low- and middle-ranking officers were war-time cadres, mostly from the middle and lower classes and some of the generals who grew in prominence (at least Denikin and Kornilov) also had been of a humble origin. In other words, army is seriously democratized and, even with many of these officers returning to the civilian life, this factor can’t be ignored.
 
For once, Russia is richer by 480 tons of gold. If anybody has any good source on what happened to the Kazan gold reserve, let me know!

A good source on russian finances is the "Banks and Bolsheviks". The following points are based on it.

The French shareholders won't lose their investments and there is no reason at all why they won't continue buying russian securities. In 1888, French shareholders owned less than 2 billion francs of russian stocks (cash value, not nominal stock). By 1914 they owned more than 10 billion. At the same time period, french FDIs in Russia increased from 200 million to 2,3 billion francs. These assets are still at play and will produce investments (and dividends for the shareholders), as they havent evaporated overnight.

It will also be interesting to see what happened with the loans german banks provided Russia before the war. Business with german industry will be profitable in the future but Russia won't have any need of german financial institutions to float debt. Even before the war german banks lagged behind their british, french and american counterparts. If anything, the war finished their value as future loan providers - at least for countries the size of Russia. In any case I don't see war-torn Russia paying back german bondholders.

An interesting fact is also the perception of Russia as a trustworthy country when it comes to bonds. Just before the February Revolution, the spread of the Imperial Russian Government 1906 bond over British consols was at its lowest since 1906.

The 1907-1913 rally of investing in Russia was not affected by events such as the murder of Stolypin or the 1912 Lena Massacre or the 1908 stand-off with Austria-Hungary. Russia, for all intends and purposes, was a booming economy, akin to modern China.

Agricultural output was on the rise as well: Cereal exports rose from 7.9 million tons between 1899 and 1903 to nearly 12 million tons in the period from 1909 to 1913. The Soviet Union managed the 1912-1913 output only in the 1950s. The cultivated land in Siberia rose by 70% between 1904 and 1914. Without a civil war and soviet policies, I believe this trend to continue. It is worth mentioning that the output was increased not just by increase of cultivated land, but of increasing use of chemical fertilizers.
 
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The French shareholders won't lose their investments and there is no reason at all why they won't continue buying russian securities. In 1888, French sahreholders owned less than 2 billion francs of russian stocks (cash value, not nominal stock). By 1914 they owned more than 10 billion. At the same time period, french FDIs in Russia increased from 200 million to 2,3 billion francs. These assets are still at play and will produce investments (and dividends for the shareholders), as they havent evaporated overnight.

French investors won't lose their investments to expropriation but they will have to sell, France is completely broke with a debt to GDP of 170% of GDP, much of it denominated in dollars and pounds meaning they can't even inflate it away (as the did in OTL with their domestic debt). Just as Britain had to do post WW2 the French government will need to raise all the foreign exchange it can which will lead it to forcing the disposals of the French investments in Russia and there will be no fresh French money coming into Russia for quite some time.
Post war FDI into Russia is going to be much lower than pre-1914 because there is simply much less money around to be invested, or rather all the liquid money that is around has been sunk into War Bonds. Of course if it's even a twentieth of the pre-war amounts it is still infinitely more than the USSR got in OTL.
 
This starts getting boring.
I get that, I occasionally get the same if I have to explain Containers and Kubernetes again. But at least for what I've seen from Luke and definitely for myself I do try to store this on my mental hard disk. So please keep the faith
 
Agricultural output was on the rise as well: Cereal exports rose from 7.9 million tons between 1899 and 1903 to nearly 12 million tons in the period from 1909 to 1913. The Soviet Union managed the 1912-1913 output only in the 1950s. The cultivated land in Siberia rose by 70% between 1904 and 1914. Without a civil war and soviet policies, I believe this trend to continue. It is worth mentioning that the output was increased not just by increase of cultivated land, but of increasing use of chemical fertilizers.

Well, this (as said before) is the one part that can give Russia true political capital, in the period the bulk of food was bought from the USA at higher price and giving Wilson another card in his sleeve, if she can start deliver cheaper food it mean having a strong hand at Versailles...and a lot of nice cash (plus much less expediture for all the european goverment); said that there is also the internal need to satisfy, unless they want try the Ceausescu approach at the foreign debt problem...basically sell your resources (in this case food) only in the export market to get hard currency and pay precedent debt.

Part of the gold, without the february revolution, will be in British bank as London demanded at least 2 billion of rubles worthy of gold as collateral for their next loan and there is the big problem that internally the sales of national debt certificate has not gone well and every goverment seem to have used the 'print the necessary money' move as the main mean of financing the war.

The sell of bonds will be also dependent on how much stable is the political situation in Russia...and honestly it not seem that good in the short period; sure even more 'unstable' place had sold bond but the price to pay will be higher as usual.

As usual, generalities and more generalities with no facts or specifics. This starts getting boring.

To start with the “yes man”: were Witte and Stolypin in that category? Both were Nicholas choice for PM. A.F.Trepov, one more OTL PM was called “modern day Stolypin” and he was chosen again the Empress will.

The same goes for the rest. Of course, there are going to be problems but an abstract pontification about the “instruments” is pretty much meaningless and not even necessarily correct and please get it: there is no (unless author wants it) communist revolution in pot-war Russia and in certain aspects the domestic problems are lesser than before the war.

Well, Nicky II, a man that really can't be described as a competent political leader in time of crisis for his nation, totally misunterstood the immediate postwar mood of the population (and that by author description) and by statistic his joice of minister were hardly good with some exception and were often quickly dismissed, especially if his wife had some saying about it; so i admit that's just my personal opinion but i doubt that's a fine recipe to manage immediate postwar Russia.
Again with the communist revolution; sorry i get it it will be no communist revolution i know it, hell from what we know in the future Russia will be under a fascist regime, what that i keep saying is that unfortunely this doesn't mean that all the problem of Russia are magically disapperead and that the pride and joy of victory will keep people warm and feed for long and in all honestly, i fail to see how the greatest massacre know to man till that moment and that will be followed by one of the greatest pandemic of the modern age* will lessen the domestic problem that already existed before the war (sure you have pointed to the fact that there are less mounth to feed...but also less people that wok and as i said there are also a lot more crippled that need to be feed and that can't work as before)

* sure the most know theory point at the americans as the principal cause of the spread, but there are others and in all honestly nobody is really sure about the start of the spanish flu. The first case were seen at the end of 1917, so it's already too late even if an earlier end of the war can slow the spread as no trench or other massive group of soldiers
 
For once, Russia is richer by 480 tons of gold. If anybody has any good source on what happened to the Kazan gold reserve, let me know!
The gold felt into the hands of Samara government. From this point there are two basic stories:

Story #1 (the most popular one) - all of it was stolen by the Czechs who used it to build up Czech economy.
Story #2 (less popular all the way to be practically unknown) https://russian7.ru/post/zagadka-zolota-kolchaka/:
By 1914 Russian gold reserve amounted to 1,311 tons (1,695M rubles).
During the war 75M had been sent to Britain as a guarantee of the loans.
562M had been sent to Canada.
As a result, by the time Bolsheviks took power the gold reserve was 1,100M.
Half of that gold had been sent to Kazan in 1915. The Bolsheviks tried to get hold of it but managed to take only 100 boxes.
The rest, 490 tons (650M rubles) was captured by the Whites and their Czech allies. It was transferred to Samara and then to Ufa. In 1919 the gold had been sent East by Trans Siberial RR controlled by the Czechs. At Nizhneudinsk representatives of Entente forced Kolchak to resign and to give gold to the Czechs.
The Czechs returned to the Soviets 409M in return for letting them go. Which leaves 236M.
Versions:
1. This gold had been stolen by the Czechs. Another sub-versions are talking about 63M or 36M. None is seriously confirmed.
2. Kolchak ordered to hide the gold (couple locations named).
3. The Czechs dropped the gold into the Baikal Lake so that the Soviets would not get it (sounds rather Wagnerian)
4. It was spent on the military needs. There is (presumably) a trace of 195M sent to France, Britain and the US for getting credit and for the direct purchase of the weaponry. The rest was taken by Ataman Semenov and used on maintaining his troops and an attempt to attract the Mongols.

Story #1 definitely had an advantage of being simple. x'D
 
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French investors won't lose their investments to expropriation but they will have to sell, France is completely broke with a debt to GDP of 170% of GDP, much of it denominated in dollars and pounds meaning they can't even inflate it away (as the did in OTL with their domestic debt). Just as Britain had to do post WW2 the French government will need to raise all the foreign exchange it can which will lead it to forcing the disposals of the French investments in Russia and there will be no fresh French money coming into Russia for quite some time.
Post war FDI into Russia is going to be much lower than pre-1914 because there is simply much less money around to be invested, or rather all the liquid money that is around has been sunk into War Bonds. Of course if it's even a twentieth of the pre-war amounts it is still infinitely more than the USSR got in OTL.
French investments in Russia were shares in the joint private enterprises so how exactly the French government was going to "dispose" of them?

France can't unilaterally change conditions of the pre-war and war-time loans just because it is short of cash. Things simply do not work this way. Absence of the new French loans is not going to be too critical for Russia because it does not have to run immediately a new ambitious rearmament program or to get engaged in a major RR construction. Why would the French investors have to sell the bonds which keep producing an income is not quite clear to me. Government (and even a nation) is in a deep <youknowwhat> but an individual bond-holder keeps getting his income and it is unlikely that he is going to sacrifice it for the country.

Well, if some of the investors into the Franco-Russian enterprises have to sell their shares, this would be a continuation of the pre-war tendency of the Russian capital gradually buying increasing shares of the joint companies. The pre-war French investments were predominantly in the areas of metallurgy (the Germans being active in this areas as well and would like to expand), banking (mostly to the French companies) and railroad construction (not a top priority for a while). Mostly in the Southern Russia and Poland.
 
I get that, I occasionally get the same if I have to explain Containers and Kubernetes again. But at least for what I've seen from Luke and definitely for myself I do try to store this on my mental hard disk. So please keep the faith
You are producing the facts, not just the generalities, which makes your posts interesting.
 
French investments in Russia were shares in the joint private enterprises so how exactly the French government was going to "dispose" of them?

Why would the French investors have to sell the bonds which keep producing an income is not quite clear to me. Government (and even a nation) is in a deep <youknowwhat> but an individual bond-holder keeps getting his income and it is unlikely that he is going to sacrifice it for the country.

That's exactly what happened in OTL and explains how Britain went from the world's largest creditor in 1914 to a net debtor in 1945.

Investor A owns 1 million Francs of rouble denominated assets in 1914, bonds, shares doesn't matter.
War is declared, France (or Britain or whoever) needs to make massive purchases of war material denominated in US dollars. This is initially funded from Gold reserves but those are limited, unsecured Dollar denominated loans are also limited.
Legislation is passed requiring all holders of foreign investments to register them with the Bank of France (OTL)
Investor A's Russian asset is liquidated, he receives 1 million of Francs worth of government bonds.
Ownership of the Russian asset is now in the hands of the Bank of France.
It either sold in Russia to Russian investors (often at a substantial loss from book value) in order to finance imports (this happened to a lot of British investments in South America) but in this case France isn't importing much from Russia so instead it's pledged to a Wall Street Bank, probably J.P. Morgan at a value of 800,000 Francs for an equivalent amount of Dollars which are immediately spent on war material.
J.P. Morgan then tries to offload the investment, possibly to a Russian (but that would require the Russian to have US dollars to buy it and it's still wartime) or probably to an American. The American probably doesn't want to hold Russian investments, he doesn't really trust Russia so he tries harder to find a Russian who will take it off his hands in return for good hard gold or gold backed currency.
Foreign investment and gold flows out of Russia, causing a financial problem.
All this happened in OTL with European investments in the Americas and partly explains the problems of Latin America in the interwar period.
Poor old investor A meanwhile has his million Franc bond but the franc has fallen in value against other currencies since leaving the gold standard and is falling further as rapid inflation takes hold. His not buying his Russian asset back.
 
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@Thoresby is it then fair to assume that Russian could buy offloaded stock with gold? Or exchange it with gold-backed bonds? After the smaller devastation of 1904-1906, gold-backed bonds sold very well. The great difference to the Latin American countries, is that Russia can float gold-backed bonds after the war ends. Even without immediately returning to the gold standard (unlikely for all participants), the gold-backed bonds would be an investor's safe heaven amidst the great uncertainty after the war.

In any case, french finances will be somewhat better with the war ending earlier and not having their russian investments evaporating. I think if the french government has to force investors to "sell", they would leave their russia stock as last. They need the investments to tie Russia close to french decision making, not just for the peace conference, but also to support them post-war in forcing the Germans paying their dues. Investments in Brazil are not important for french reconstruction and security, but the russian ones are quite important.

There is one ample source of investments: USA. The National City Bank of New York (nowdays Citigroup) opened its first bank in Russia in the 1916-1917 winter. The Americans were planning to expand in the post-war russian economy. They had identified many railroads with high leverage ( 9x debt to equity ratio) and were planning for post-war acquisitions. They believed that with introducing better management, they could turn these railroads into goldmines.

Another butterfly of having capable Stolypin around could be perhaps the better regulation of the internal economy. The OTL problems in the consumer's market were mostly due to the absence of governmental intervention. Stolypin wouldn't have been able to provide many more trains for the civilian economy during wartime, but I doubt he would simply avoid doing something in regulating prices and supply chains and at least try to use the remaining trains more efficiently.

Regarding the tsarist gold, even the gold that was eventually kept by the Bolsheviks was spent by 1922. Sean McMeekin states so in this book "History's Greatest Heist". This is a huge gold reserve evaporating.

Some other fascinating facts: the growth rate of the russian economy was increased by 19% from 1914 to 1916. The stock exchange went up during that time, something that was observed only in the USA.

Even after staggering losses and military disasters , financiers such as the House of Morgan were certain of their investments in russian debt and kept buying russian Treasury Bills.

Lastly, the tsarist government didn't have so much foreign debt during the war (at least compated to the rest of the Entente- minus US of course). To quote "Bankers and Bolsheviks:
Foreign loans paid for only about 21 percent of war expenditure during this period, and the share of foreign loans in total war loans was 33.8 percent, with domestic loans accounting for nearly two-thirds of all loans. More importantly, foreign finance became less, not more, pronounced through the course of the war. Setting aside the figures for 1914—a lag between the opening of hostilities and the flotation of loans is to be expected—the contribution of foreign loans to total war expenditure dropped sharply in 1917, to just 16 percent.

In general, I am confident that -based in OTL- the Imperial Government won't face significant money problems. What I think is plausible, is that overleveraged corporations will suffer. American capital could make their dream come true and buy cheap a lot of assets. That would lead to a new major boom. Of course, after the boom comes the bust.
 
@Thoresby is it then fair to assume that Russian could buy offloaded stock with gold? Or exchange it with gold-backed bonds? After the smaller devastation of 1904-1906, gold-backed bonds sold very well. The great difference to the Latin American countries, is that Russia can float gold-backed bonds after the war ends. Even without immediately returning to the gold standard (unlikely for all participants), the gold-backed bonds would be an investor's safe heaven amidst the great uncertainty after the war.

You can only use a kilo of gold once. Russia can offer gold backed bonds, it can transfer gold overseas in order to clear debts or to finance imports but it only has so much gold and you can only run down your reserves for so long. I'm sure the Russian state will float some gold backed bonds, it will be an important part of the response to the financial circumstances of 1918 but it's not a solution. The essential problem is going to be lack of international confidence in Russia, there's just been an attempted revolution, they've pissed off the Western Powers at Versailles, the domestic economy is a mess* and there will be lingering unrest across Russia which will be coming into the open as things stabilise post-war and compunction opens back up. Inflation will be high and bad debts and bankruptcies all over the place**. That is not an environment that a cautious investor is going to be pouring a lot of new money. Thus capital and gold flight out of Russia.

In any case, french finances will be somewhat better with the war ending earlier and not having their russian investments evaporating. I think if the french government has to force investors to "sell", they would leave their russia stock as last. They need the investments to tie Russia close to french decision making, not just for the peace conference, but also to support them post-war in forcing the Germans paying their dues. Investments in Brazil are not important for french reconstruction and security, but the russian ones are quite important.

I agree, not least because the Americans are going to prefer Brazilian or African assets to Russian ones but France owes so much and has so much reconstruction to do in the occupied areas they are going to have to dig quite deep into their investments in Russia. This is going to exacerbate the capital flight problem.

Some other fascinating facts: the growth rate of the russian economy was increased by 19% from 1914 to 1916. The stock exchange went up during that time, something that was observed only in the USA.

I wouldn't place too much store in that, the Russian economy in OTL WW1 was a mess with the normal signalling mechanisms that should inform stock market valuations seriously off.

While bad this is not an unsolvable problem, the first priority is to get the rouble stabilised against foreign currencies and domestic inflation under control, this is going to require a.) judicious foreign borrowing b.) tight and unpopular controls on internal credit c.) prioritisation of exports, if they can also have d.) German reparations that makes everything much easier. With the currency sorted and domestic inflation under control the internal economy can start to recover on the back of wheat and other primary products being exported. It will take time but there is no reason that the Russians can't get back to 1913 GDP per capita by say 1925.

*Even with Stolypin running things the domestic economy is going to be a mess because all of the post-war economies were a mess as demobilisation coupled with the hangover of the war and war time measures causes chaos. There is no way to avoid this.
**In Britain and France 1918 saw a massive wave of bankruptcies as zombie business which had been functionally bust since 1914 were allowed to fail as the wartime restrictions on banks calling in debts were withdrawn. Russia could of cause not withdraw the restrictions but that just causes allows more problems to build up the financial system and makes the eventual reckoning that much worse.
 
The essential problem is going to be lack of international confidence in Russia, there's just been an attempted revolution, they've pissed off the Western Powers at Versailles, the domestic economy is a mess* and there will be lingering unrest across Russia which will be coming into the open as things stabilise post-war and compunction opens back up. Inflation will be high and bad debts and bankruptcies all over the place**. That is not an environment that a cautious investor is going to be pouring a lot of new money. Thus capital and gold flight out of Russia.
Why lack of international confidence in Russia after a victorious war when there was international confidence after loosing multiple armies in the battlefield and some of the most developed regions that contained 35 million citizens in 1915? Military disaster soars confidence while winning a war destroys it?

Why lack of confidence due an attempted revolution months before the peace, in February 1917, when there was confidence enough in 1906 when there was widespread revolution in the country, estates were being burned and Russia had just lost a war?

Why lack of confidence because they pissed off the Western Powers (basically Britain and USA), when the british market was open for russian bonds when Russia was not an ally but the biggest rival, before the Entente? The franco-russian alliance is still standing after all. Britain is pissed off but still a nominal ally that needs Russia to enforce Versailles.


I wouldn't place too much store in that, the Russian economy in OTL WW1 was a mess with the normal signalling mechanisms that should inform stock market valuations seriously off.
Then how to quantify the state of russian economy, but with numbers such as industrial output, bond spreads, stock market etc?

We cannot base analysis on simple aphorisms, but we need some sort of quantitative data. Numbers show that until February 1917, the economy was not in shambles and the biggest problem were the supply chains due to wartime constrictions.

On the qualitative side, we have e.g. American bankers setting shop in 1916 and early 1917 and preparing to expand their operations. Said bankers remained bullish until summer 1917. This is a sign of trust despite not knowing for sure whether the Entente will win the war.

On the other side, we may treat Lenin's pamphlets as gospel and use political manifesto's instead of the previously mentioned sources.

Once again, my source for the above is the "Bankers and Bolsheviks" I mentioned before.
 
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You can only use a kilo of gold once. Russia can offer gold backed bonds, it can transfer gold overseas in order to clear debts or to finance imports but it only has so much gold and you can only run down your reserves for so long. I'm sure the Russian state will float some gold backed bonds, it will be an important part of the response to the financial circumstances of 1918 but it's not a solution. The essential problem is going to be lack of international confidence in Russia, there's just been an attempted revolution, they've pissed off the Western Powers at Versailles, the domestic economy is a mess* and there will be lingering unrest across Russia which will be coming into the open as things stabilise post-war and compunction opens back up. Inflation will be high and bad debts and bankruptcies all over the place**. That is not an environment that a cautious investor is going to be pouring a lot of new money. Thus capital and gold flight out of Russia.



I agree, not least because the Americans are going to prefer Brazilian or African assets to Russian ones but France owes so much and has so much reconstruction to do in the occupied areas they are going to have to dig quite deep into their investments in Russia. This is going to exacerbate the capital flight problem.



I wouldn't place too much store in that, the Russian economy in OTL WW1 was a mess with the normal signalling mechanisms that should inform stock market valuations seriously off.

While bad this is not an unsolvable problem, the first priority is to get the rouble stabilised against foreign currencies and domestic inflation under control, this is going to require a.) judicious foreign borrowing b.) tight and unpopular controls on internal credit c.) prioritisation of exports, if they can also have d.) German reparations that makes everything much easier. With the currency sorted and domestic inflation under control the internal economy can start to recover on the back of wheat and other primary products being exported. It will take time but there is no reason that the Russians can't get back to 1913 GDP per capita by say 1925.

*Even with Stolypin running things the domestic economy is going to be a mess because all of the post-war economies were a mess as demobilisation coupled with the hangover of the war and war time measures causes chaos. There is no way to avoid this.
**In Britain and France 1918 saw a massive wave of bankruptcies as zombie business which had been functionally bust since 1914 were allowed to fail as the wartime restrictions on banks calling in debts were withdrawn. Russia could of cause not withdraw the restrictions but that just causes allows more problems to build up the financial system and makes the eventual reckoning that much worse.
They're sitting on a ton of oil, are mining more gold and a lot of ferrous and non ferrous metals and without the idiocies of the USSR may discover the Siberian diamonds earlier of course. And everyone else in Europe (except perhaps Finland and Sweden) is nickel poor and France is relatively poor in most minerals.
 
Russia could of cause not withdraw the restrictions but that just causes allows more problems to build up the financial system and makes the eventual reckoning that much worse.
There were some industries whose debt was guaranteed by the imperial government. Others that were overleveraged but had valuable assets (rights for mining over huge mineral-rich areas, forests, railroads) so they were prime targets for acquisitions. If anything, acquisitions will bring capital and expertise to develop these under utilized assets.

Certainly though, many businesses will fail or at the very least have their debt restructured. But the core drivers of the economy (ore extraction, metallurgy, agriculture) will be either in a prime position (e.g. metallurgy) or a bargain for investors (e.g. railroads).

everyone else in Europe (except perhaps Finland and Sweden)
To add to your post, Finland in this timeline is part of the Russian Empire. So it leaves only Sweden.

I forgot to mention that american industries were pressing their banks to have more exposure in Russia. This took place not in 1913 but in 1916. Hardly bad news for investing. I quote again from the "Bankers and Bolsheviks"

Global relationships with Western firms also pressured Western banks to increase exposure to the Russian market. For example, on 23 September, J. Block, a Moscow- based entrepreneur representing several American firms in Russia, including the Remington Typewriter Company, Fairbanks Company, and Burroughs Adding Machines, wrote to Meserve lobbying National City to open a branch in Russia to service the growing needs of his client firms in Russia.

How do anecdotes such as this along with the actual actions from OTL paint the picture of an investing-adverse environment?
 
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