The German 11” gun was actually considered superior to the British 12” at most ranges. The Germans had Better AP shells and fired them at much higher velocities. The 12” had significant problems with dispersion out past 6000 yards. Within that range it was a very accurate and hard hitting gun. Outside of it it got progressively less accurate. The 12”/50 was intended to fix this, but it didn’t. It is suspected that this was due to barrel whip. The RN never had much luck with wire wound 50 calibre guns. That was part of the reason that they eventually went to 13.5”.
Dreadnoughts vs Pre-dreadnoughts 1914
- Thread starter Monk78
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Are you comparing armour penetration trials of the 12 inch gun and with no armour penetration cap on the shells against armour penetration trials of the German 11 inch gun with full the full shell?
The British 12 inch guns weren't great but they get a worse rap than they deserve.
Deleted member 94680
Good for smaller main guns and good for a battlecruiser - compared to the British BCs. All that is as maybe but I doubt Souchon would willingly go up against a 12” dread or even a 13.5” or better. A battlecruiser is not a battleship and he knew it. I’d argue his Black Sea operations would prove that too.
How would the upgraded German Pre-Dreadnoughts of WW2 fare against a vintage 1906 Dreadnought?
They weren't as bad as they could be, no. The 2 crh shells were pretty terrible. The 4 crh shells that the 12"/45 eventually got (1916?) and that the 12"/50 had from the start (I think) were ok but still not up to the level of the German AP. Jellicoe had started the process of improving British capped shells while DNO but it seems no one continued it once he left. It was only after Jutland that a new, better AP shell was developed and I don't know if an equivalent one was made for the 12".
The bigger issue than its penetration was its accuracy, though. At 6000 yards it is pretty good. at 12,000 yards its shot tended to fall over an area of about 3 acres. Pertinent to this question, the older 12"/40 and 12"/35 on most of the older predreadnoughts was actually more accurate at ranges over 6000 yards than the newer 12"/45 and 12"/50 on the Lord Nelson class and the early Deadnoughts.
Semi-Dreadnoughts like Lord Neslon, Satsuma, and Radetzky vs first generation Dreadnoughts might make a more interesting comparison.
They are generally just as well armored, and have fire control systems of equal quality. They are about 3 knots slower true, and only have two main battery turrets to a broadside compared with four, but they do have a much greater array of secondary weapons, that fire faster and are more potent, and are in turrets extending their range above the casemates of older designs.
If these semi dreadnoughts managed to catch a dreadnought cousin at relatively close range where additional speed would not be as effective, and they could fully employ their 9 and 10 inch secondaries, they might be able to put enough weight of shot on target to before the dreadnoughts' heavier main guns can make up the difference.
Once you start getting more advanced dreadnoughts though, then the engagement will still be pretty one sided.
They are generally just as well armored, and have fire control systems of equal quality. They are about 3 knots slower true, and only have two main battery turrets to a broadside compared with four, but they do have a much greater array of secondary weapons, that fire faster and are more potent, and are in turrets extending their range above the casemates of older designs.
If these semi dreadnoughts managed to catch a dreadnought cousin at relatively close range where additional speed would not be as effective, and they could fully employ their 9 and 10 inch secondaries, they might be able to put enough weight of shot on target to before the dreadnoughts' heavier main guns can make up the difference.
Once you start getting more advanced dreadnoughts though, then the engagement will still be pretty one sided.
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And it was this calculation that led to the RN posting the 2 Lord Nelson's to Mudros to take on the Goeben. Of course sod's law said that when she did come out neither were there and the Raglan copped it
Had both Lord Nelson's been present and alert the Goeben would have legged it smartish!
closest I could think of is these two PD + the 2 finnish coastal battleships vs Marat and oktober revolution dreadnoughts duel it out in the Baltic in 1941
Unglamorous but interesting battle ?
Coulsdon Eagle
Monthly Donor
Agreed - although the Russians managed to blow one of them up all by themselves.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperatritsa_Mariya-class_battleship
Interesting - the salvaged guns were used in the defence of Sevastopol in 1941/42.
Deleted member 94680
No one ever said the Imperial Russian Navy was any kind of paragon of virtue
Riain
Banned
All in all I think pre dreads have a lot of versatility against dreads despite their massive disadvantages in an engagement. They force a dread to fight a gun battle rather than brush aside weak opposition in defensive scenarios such as convoy escort or garudship duties and therefore reduce the impact of surprise. Further IIUC in the Falkland Islands the long range gunnery by the I's used a LOT of ammunition and took something like 5 hours to sink the S & G after the first firing began, it took half an hour to get the range on the Leipzig. Presumably in a gun battle with a pre dread the dread using it's long range advantage would take a while and use a lot of ammo getting the job done by which time the convoy has scattered or other defences stood-to.
This had more to do with speed than offensive power. With two battlecruisers Sturdlee was more concerned with the ability to overtake the German cruisers than he was with firepower. I am sure Cradock wished he had brought Canopus along but once again he was worried about speed,
Yeah, it also depends on WHICH dreadnoughts we're talking about, doesn't it?
Not just the switch to turbines and centerline turrets and different protection schemes, but also increasing gun sizes, too. With the Orion class the British introduce the 13.5in gun, and with the Queen Elizabeths they introduce the 15in, by which point the overmatch with even the best pre-dreads starts to become ludicrous; and yes, the introduction of director firing (not given to th pre-dreads) helps even more.
While a dreadnought typically carried 10-12 main guns, not all could fire in a broadside.
Typically, only 4 out of 6 turrets could target the enemy in a broadside.
So two pre-dreads with their 2 main turrets can fire as many guns as a single dreadnought...
The technical advantage would still be with the more modern dread but the two pre-dreads would have the benefit of redundancy if you will. A hit will only hamper a single ship.
Deleted member 94680
HMS Dreadnought line drawing from wiki
So Dreadnought could fire twice as many main guns on the broadside as a two turret pre-dreadnought. Hence CalBear’s 1 dread = 2 pre-dread calculus.
Something else to consider is the tactical ability of speed. It varies based on situation and there are plenty of debates on its actual effect. I once read a very interesting discussion on the theoretical tactical uses of battlecruisers. It boiled down to the fact that a battlecruiser could approach the line of battle of slower ships and allow them to cross their T, sort of. The BC actually approach with the enemy at 30 degrees to them, while slightly varying their course every so often to throw off the enemy's gunnery calculations. Engaging at that angle allows the BC to use all its guns while presenting a smaller target and possibly its strongest relative armour profile. They then use their speed to control the engagement and keep out of range of most of the enemy line while concentrating fire on the lead ship, moving on to the next in line when that one is neutralized. As a whole I don't know if the tactic was ever actually used (I suspect not), but elements of it definitely could have been. And in relation to this discussion the 3 knot advantage most dreadnoughts would enjoy over most PD's is not the 4-5 knots thought necessary for BC's to engage in fleet scouting, but it might do in a pinch.Dreadnought could deliver a broadside of eight guns between 60° before the beam and 50° abaft the beam. Beyond these limits she could fire six guns aft, and four forward. On bearings 1° ahead or astern she could fire six guns, although she would have inflicted blast damage on the superstructure. Wiki
HMS Dreadnought line drawing from wiki
So Dreadnought could fire twice as many main guns on the broadside as a two turret pre-dreadnought. Hence CalBear’s 1 dread = 2 pre-dread calculus.