Dreadnoughts vs Pre-dreadnoughts 1914

Coulsdon Eagle

Monthly Donor
I hope it is not too much of a diversion from the OP to wonder how Troubridge’s 1st Cruiser Squadron with Black Prince, Defence, Shannon, and Duke of Edinburg would have done vs. Goeben had they met at dawn at say 10,000 yards at the opening of the war.
Wasn't Goeben's black gang pretty much exhausted by this time having sprinted away from the two RN BCs? If he was in good condition then Souchon could sit outside the range of the British 9.2" and either run or deliberately pick them off. However if he loses the speed advantage he could effectively be cornered. Not sure at what range the 9.2" would penetrate the Goeben's belt. Even if successful it would probably cost 2-3 armoured cruisers crippled or sunk IMHO.
 
Wasn't Goeben's black gang pretty much exhausted by this time having sprinted away from the two RN BCs? If he was in good condition then Souchon could sit outside the range of the British 9.2" and either run or deliberately pick them off. However if he loses the speed advantage he could effectively be cornered. Not sure at what range the 9.2" would penetrate the Goeben's belt. Even if successful it would probably cost 2-3 armoured cruisers crippled or sunk IMHO.
Goeben sprinted away from the BCs (4 deaths from scalding steam and over a dozen passed out from heatstroke) then most of days hard work coaling the ship before resuming travel at speed (but a more relaxed pace).
I hope it is not too much of a diversion from the OP to wonder how Troubridge’s 1st Cruiser Squadron with Black Prince, Defence, Shannon, and Duke of Edinburg would have done vs. Goeben had they met at dawn at say 10,000 yards at the opening of the war.
Does Troubridge have his destroyers as he planned? In which case he will attempt to close and attack with torpedoes. Historically some of his destroyers didn't have the coal to steam at enough speed to intercept.
 
Goeben sprinted away from the BCs (4 deaths from scalding steam and over a dozen passed out from heatstroke) then most of days hard work coaling the ship before resuming travel at speed (but a more relaxed pace).

Does Troubridge have his destroyers as he planned? In which case he will attempt to close and attack with torpedoes. Historically some of his destroyers didn't have the coal to steam at enough speed to intercept.

Back of a fag packet maths from data on NavWeaps says about 4,000 yards for the thickest sections?
If engaging something that big they would likely start with HE at longer range. Hope that it causes chaos and hopefully lights something important on fire. When they get close (Assuming they are still fighting) they will switch to AP and use the secondary battery to keep trying to burn the upper works.

Can’t speak to how well it would work, but my guess is that would be the plan. Alternatively, Troubridge could just block the Adriatic as ordered and then shadow Souchon so he can hopefully be engaged later. Him not doing that was, I think, the bigger reason that he faced court martial IOTL.
 

Deleted member 94680

Ouch! That would be a painful run in.
True. But that’s 4,000-odd yards until belt penetration on the thickest 11” (“The belt was 280 mm (11 in) thick where it covered the ship's ammunition magazines and propulsion machinery spaces” - wiki) section. They’d be able to hit, damage and even penetrate other parts of the ship and the thinner sections of the belt (“The belt tapered down to 76 mm (3 in) on either end” - wiki) at greater ranges.
 
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Many battles took place at shorter ranges due to visibility limits. That makes the secondaries more useful than at long range with good visibility.

One consideration with 2 predreadnoughts vs 1 dreadnought: If the dreadnought fires on only one target, the other has an easy time shooting; it's like on the firing range. If the dreadnought splits its fire, it just threw away its advantage.
 
Many battles took place at shorter ranges due to visibility limits. That makes the secondaries more useful than at long range with good visibility.

One consideration with 2 predreadnoughts vs 1 dreadnought: If the dreadnought fires on only one target, the other has an easy time shooting; it's like on the firing range. If the dreadnought splits its fire, it just threw away its advantage.
Can the PD use smokescreen to further complicate the range advantage of the Dreadnoughts ?
 
Can the PD use smokescreen to further complicate the range advantage of the Dreadnoughts ?
Smokescreen is a pretty difficult thing to use offensively. There is a reason it is normally used to try and bug out. For starters it affects you just as much as the enemy, and it is difficult to get the right conditions to have the smoke laid out in the direction you want without the wind dissipating it. It might be possible that a PD could use it to try and escape, but the Dreadnoughts speed advantage would allow them some leeway in following and engaging when the conditions are favourable.
 

Deleted member 94680

One consideration with 2 predreadnoughts vs 1 dreadnought: If the dreadnought fires on only one target, the other has an easy time shooting; it's like on the firing range. If the dreadnought splits its fire, it just threw away its advantage.
Or, the dreadnought can equally engage two pre-dreadnoughts at once.
 
Or, the dreadnought can equally engage two pre-dreadnoughts at once.
Theoretically, it could. The fire control suites were designed to be able to do so from Dreadnought on. Some of them were a little questionable in their actual layout though. The famous example is Dreadnought's tower being behind the funnel, but there were others. They all generally had a second fire control position but I don't know if engaging two ships at once was ever actually tried.
 
What kind of tactics can pre-dread adopt to overpower the dreadnoughts ? WHat tactical situations will benefit them ?
I think the best is a Norwegian fiord where the range could be forced to be very, very close and have no warning of the fight....... any BB would be in trouble if hit at 0 range from even 12" guns and underwater torpedoes when its not expecting it.
 
I think the best is a Norwegian fiord where the range could be forced to be very, very close and have no warning of the fight....... any BB would be in trouble if hit at 0 range from even 12" guns and underwater torpedoes when its not expecting it.
how useful /practical was arming battleships with torpedoes ?
 
Hood may have hit Bismark with one as she went down. Rodney did hit Bismark with one. AFAIK those are the only instances of BB torpedoes actually hitting something, and I don't think they were decisive. So on the whole I would say not much.
 

Coulsdon Eagle

Monthly Donor
Hood may have hit Bismark with one as she went down. Rodney did hit Bismark with one. AFAIK those are the only instances of BB torpedoes actually hitting something, and I don't think they were decisive. So on the whole I would say not much.
The opinion is that Lutzow would have survived Jutland if it wasn't for the hit (or hits) Invincible made on his torpedo flat, we can probably chalk that one (own goal) up to torpedoes too.
 

Riain

Banned
how useful /practical was arming battleships with torpedoes ?
It was standard in the RN from Dreadnought to the Nelsons, although the only time a BB fired a torpedo at another BB was when Rodney fired at Bismark in 1941 which makes it sound like they weren't much practical use.

The RN did develop 24.5" Torpedoes for the Nelsons with enriched oxygen propulsion giving them great performance and the inspiration for the Japanese Long Lance. it's a pity these beasts didn't become standard fitment on RN destroyers and cruisers from the 20s.
 
Battleship torps never quite kept up with guns. At 5000 yards with long lines BBs? Sure a torpedo looks interesting. Then the ranges jumped. Enriched oxygen might have helped but then BBs got so expensive long lines of ships ceased to be an option.

Hindsight makes torpedoes a bad idea, but understandable at the time.
 

Deleted member 94680

Battleship torps never quite kept up with guns. At 5000 yards with long lines BBs? Sure a torpedo looks interesting. Then the ranges jumped. Enriched oxygen might have helped but then BBs got so expensive long lines of ships ceased to be an option.

Hindsight makes torpedoes a bad idea, but understandable at the time.
It was Royal Navy thinking pre-war that guns would slow the enemy and torpedoes would sink them. The idea was always to hit at range with guns, close to torpedo range to sink the enemy.

WWI experience quickly disproved it, but that’s why you see battleships with torpedos all the way through WWI and even why the 24.5” was developed.
 
The Admiralty certainly thought that under certain circumstances a Dreadnought could be sunk by older battleships.

During the 1909 Manoeuvres the Red Fleet, mainly pre-dreadnoughts, was pursuing Blue Fleet. Red possessed Bellerophon, and its' skipper Evan-Thomas, later of 5 BS notoriety, was employed as a 'fast division' on it's own. In this capacity she ran down and 'sank' four Blue cruisers.

However, a repeat attempt next day in fog ended less happily, as Billy Ruffian found herself closely confronted by six Blue BBs when the fog suddenly lifted, and was judged sunk.

Andrew Gordon, The Rules of the Game, refers to this (John Murray 2002 pb ed, p372-73)
 
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