Dreadnoughts vs Pre-dreadnoughts 1914
- Thread starter Monk78
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Since the Dreads are faster, better armed and armored it is going to require a very specific set of circumstances. Dreadnought carried ten 12"/45 guns, previous classes carried four less powerful guns (as in 50% less armor penetration), was better armored, and she was 10-15% faster. So she could chose if any engagement was to occur, could engage two other pre-dreads and outgun both of them. Dreadnoughts were literally a revolution in naval warfare.
The enemy commander would need to find a way to pin the faster ship in a bay, or against shallows and then have enough numbers to survive getting hammered by guns that would overpower his heavies armor all the way out to the practical limit of gun range. Best bet would be a mixed force, with a number of destroyers or torpedo boats to pin the more capable opponent against whatever terrain feature is available to prevent it from simply staying at max engagement range and chop any opposing ships to pieces. Then bring in five or six pre-dreads. Expect to get one or two of them back.
The enemy commander would need to find a way to pin the faster ship in a bay, or against shallows and then have enough numbers to survive getting hammered by guns that would overpower his heavies armor all the way out to the practical limit of gun range. Best bet would be a mixed force, with a number of destroyers or torpedo boats to pin the more capable opponent against whatever terrain feature is available to prevent it from simply staying at max engagement range and chop any opposing ships to pieces. Then bring in five or six pre-dreads. Expect to get one or two of them back.
What I was thinking is that pre-dreads only have a hope in a defensive battle , i.e guarding a port/naval base /convoy or covering an invasion force.Here the speed advantage is minimized
depending on the pre-dreads atleast 3 are needed to counter 1 dreadnought [if not 4-5]
Extensive use of smoke screen , maybe better recon will be crucial
Luring a dreadnought into a minefield by offering a pre-dread is as a bait is another option
Didn't the german pre-dreads took some punishment in Jutland and only lost one of their number ?
Remember 2 pre dreadnaughts out gunned a single dreadnaught. As we saw at Jutland accuracy was not hallmark of World War I gunnery so. It seems to me that either could get the first "Lucky" hit.
2.5 pre-dreads =1 dread. The first gen Dreads carried 10-12 main battery guns. Pre-dreads were consistently four guns 2x2. The guns were also generally less powerful, largely due to be lower caliber (generally 30 or 35) and with less effective fire control
Here is one such battle. Pre-dreadnoughts got some hits. Dreadnought (Battle Cruiser) used superior speed to withdraw.
en.wikipedia.org
Battle of Cape Sarych - Wikipedia
One must consider that the minimum for decent naval gunnery ranging is two 4 round salvos and then consider that a Dreadnought with at least a 8 gun broadside would thus in theory have the needed data to fire for effect before a group of Pre Dreadnoughts would have found the range and the extra guns per salvo would greatly increase the chances of hits. Plus multiple Pred Dreadnoughts firing at one ship would be make distinguishing the fall of shot from each ship difficult which in turn would make gunnery on the predeadnought side more difficult
Play to the PD's strength. Manufacture a short range engagement where the PDs can act as the rapid fire chainsaws they were designed as.
Not sure how to achieve that, though night is always the great equaliser.
The PDs suffer for not being developed further so can't be realistically be expected to deal with 13" etc.
Not sure how to achieve that, though night is always the great equaliser.
There are some interesting random weaknesses in that first generation of dreadnoughts. Triple Expansion dreadnoughts and turbined Dantons. The Lord Nelsons were nominally better armored than Dreadnought.
The PDs suffer for not being developed further so can't be realistically be expected to deal with 13" etc.
Riain
Banned
The oldest RN pre dreads were used as flagships on overseas stations, which basically means that a dread would have to first beat it before doing what else it needed to do. It's the same with convoy escort and gaurdships, the dread has to first deal with these ships before doing anything else.
If this is done at long range the dread might use up a lot of its ammo, and using speed uses a lot of fuel which would impact the rest of the mission. It also eliminates the element of surprise.
But it is a fluke if a pre dread managed to sink a dread 1 on 1 or even 2 on 1.
If this is done at long range the dread might use up a lot of its ammo, and using speed uses a lot of fuel which would impact the rest of the mission. It also eliminates the element of surprise.
But it is a fluke if a pre dread managed to sink a dread 1 on 1 or even 2 on 1.
Do note however that Dreads didn't always have a speed advantage. In the American lineup f.e. the South Carolinas, USS Delaware (but not her sister USS North Dakota), the New Yorks and USS Oklahoma (but not her sister USS Nevada) were all 'Dreadnought' battleships that had triple-expansion engines rather than turbines.
Once effective range-finders, fire control directors and mechanical computers come into common service (and thus, the Dread can use it's uniform main battery effectively at long range) the fight is pretty bloody one-sided.
Problem is, while such systems were entering service from about 1910 onwards it took until at least 1916 for the British to fit all their Dreadnoughts with the full system.
There's also the problem that in the first gen of DNs you've got a bit of a mess... some turbine powered (can sprint at 20ish knots until fuel runs out) while others are still using triple expansion engines (may make 20 knots on a good day but the engines will shake themselves apart rather quickly); weird gun placement; etc.
Against a first gen Dread without director fire control, a two PDN vs one DN fight is probably about equal given a moderate starting range and clear conditions. A short range engagement where fire control is not such an issue a one on one fight is probably in the too close to call category.
A first gen Dread with the full fire control getup can probably face 3 or even 4 PDNs at range and expect favourable outcomes.
Once you get into Super Dreadnought territory... the PDNs are just a fireworks display waiting to happen.
Problem is, while such systems were entering service from about 1910 onwards it took until at least 1916 for the British to fit all their Dreadnoughts with the full system.
There's also the problem that in the first gen of DNs you've got a bit of a mess... some turbine powered (can sprint at 20ish knots until fuel runs out) while others are still using triple expansion engines (may make 20 knots on a good day but the engines will shake themselves apart rather quickly); weird gun placement; etc.
Against a first gen Dread without director fire control, a two PDN vs one DN fight is probably about equal given a moderate starting range and clear conditions. A short range engagement where fire control is not such an issue a one on one fight is probably in the too close to call category.
A first gen Dread with the full fire control getup can probably face 3 or even 4 PDNs at range and expect favourable outcomes.
Once you get into Super Dreadnought territory... the PDNs are just a fireworks display waiting to happen.
Derek Pullem
Donor
An indication of the value of an older pre-dreadnought was the grounding of the Canopus as a guard ship at the Battle of the Falkland Islands rather than face two modern armoured cruisers!
Coulsdon Eagle
Monthly Donor
If the early dreadnoughts are faced with late pre-dreadnoughts (Edward VII class, Agamemnon & Lord Nelson) or semi-dreadnoughts (Radetzky & Danton classes) or the late UD pre-d's and allow them to come within range of large secondary batteries then the results will be a little less lopsided in favour of the BB.
The only time that Pre-dreads came out on top against a Dreadnought type ship was when the Russian Black Sea Fleet engaged the Goben and Breslau. The Russians had trained to fight their ships as a single unit, using an elaborate system of signals and would use one ship as the gunnery vessel and it would transmit range data to the other ships of the squadron so they'd all fire at the same elevation. They'd then do firing in turn to know which ship's shell splashes were what and then once the range was established (either with a straddle or hit) they'd all be hammering away at that range, taking any adjustments from the ship that was acting as the gunnery control ship.
This was quite promising and let a group of inferior vessels act in essence as a large single unit. And during the engagements with the Russian ships, the system seemed to work. But this is still rather a specialised situation.
As was said above really a Dreadnought can run rings around a pre-dread, even the dreadnought was a sustained 3 knots faster than a Pre-dread running at flank and they'd not be able to do that for long without risking machinery casualties whereas with her turbines the Dreadnought could do it day in day out. So any 6-inch guns on a Pre-dread are not going to get a look in or if they score hits, its going to bounce off the armour or do little.
The only way a group of pre-dreads could beat a Dreadnought is if they caught it alone and were able to pin it so they could get their secondaries in range, here something like a French Danton or the RN's Lord Nelson would be able to do some serious damage with their secondaries but the chance of this actually happening?
The other scenario is that the two sides blunder into each other at short range in poor visibility, and then its the pre-dreads hoping that they can plaster the bigger ships with their guns before suffering catastrophic damage.
This was quite promising and let a group of inferior vessels act in essence as a large single unit. And during the engagements with the Russian ships, the system seemed to work. But this is still rather a specialised situation.
As was said above really a Dreadnought can run rings around a pre-dread, even the dreadnought was a sustained 3 knots faster than a Pre-dread running at flank and they'd not be able to do that for long without risking machinery casualties whereas with her turbines the Dreadnought could do it day in day out. So any 6-inch guns on a Pre-dread are not going to get a look in or if they score hits, its going to bounce off the armour or do little.
The only way a group of pre-dreads could beat a Dreadnought is if they caught it alone and were able to pin it so they could get their secondaries in range, here something like a French Danton or the RN's Lord Nelson would be able to do some serious damage with their secondaries but the chance of this actually happening?
The other scenario is that the two sides blunder into each other at short range in poor visibility, and then its the pre-dreads hoping that they can plaster the bigger ships with their guns before suffering catastrophic damage.
Canopus was a second class Battleship, intended for duties in the Far East. It’s armour was basically the same as the Cressy type armoured cruisers. And it was pretty clapped out, it’s speed would not allow it to intercept the armoured cruisers. Until the BC’s arrived it was the only unit with fire superiority over Von Spee. Grounding it (meaning it can’t be sunk and can probably be recovered later) in a position to protect the only British station in the area was definitely the right call.
Fisher had introduced a similar system in the RN that was intended to allow its PD’s to stand up to Dreads in groups of two or three.
I am given to understand that this is also how he intended BC to fight in a fleet battle, concentrating the fire of two or three against the lead ship in a line of battle while controlling the range with their speed, then moving on to the next one, achieving local superiority. but a I digress.
Too much stability can actually be a problem. If a ship is too stable it rocks back against a roll too quickly, which makes accurate fire difficult. The Invincible’s actually had this problem. Though I think Dreadnought did not.
Deleted member 94680
Goeben was ‘only’ a battlecruiser with 11” guns though. A ‘proper’ dreadnought battleship with 12” or larger guns would be a whole other prospect.
Not really, the 11-inch guns were rather good and the goben's armour scheme was also very good.
When looking at dreadnought vs predreadnought we have a number of different scenarios.
Older predreadnoughts
Newer predreadnoughts
1st generation dreadnoughts
2nd generation dreadnoughts
Superdreadnoughts
If we take something like a Bayern class and compare it to something like Canopus its a slaughter.
If we take HMS Dreadnought and compare her to something like the Deutschland or Danton classes we see something a lot closer. Theres still a massive advantage to Dreadnought but I would not take HMS Dreadnought against 2 enemy ships in 1907. 10 guns (8 gun broadside) against 8 guns in 2 ships and 2 hulls. HMS Dreadnought should probably use her speed to evade battle (or possible to maneuver to an advantageous position).
In 1915 I might agree to take that engagement (refit to dreadnought with increased elevation on guns and improved fire control early in ww1).
The advantage of the dreadnought is increased in a line of battle where large numbers of both ships are present. It may be difficult for 20 predreadnoughts to get a decent arc of fire against 10 dreadnought battleships. At the very least it would become very hard for some of the predreadnoughts to accurately spot fall of shot. The last dreadnoughts would have half the predreadnoughts attempting to aim at them.
Germans used a number of more modern predreadnoughts in the line of battle up until Jutland. They did not explore techniques for multiple predreadnoughts to attack the same dreadnought in massed fire. Instead they seem to have mainly been used to soak damage at the end of the battle line to prevent Royal Navy from abusing their numerical advantage by focusing multiple dreadnoughts against each german dreadnought.
I see mention of Canopus being beached in the Falklands and I agree that its a massive indictment of the quality of the older predreadnoughts were. The Canopus had an intermediate type of armour inferior to Krupp cemented which was used in all subsequent classes. Her engines were clapped out and her guns were 12 inch 35 calibre shells and she was firing practice rounds for at least some of the engagement.
Many people draw conclusions about predreadnought vs dreadnought engagement by the withdrawals of the Goeben from Russian squadrons. I put forward a different suggestion. There was no suitable source of spare parts or facilities do proper repairs of Goeben on the Blacksea. If she took significant damage she was out of the war. Goeben had to be retained as a fleet in being. Her withdrawals does not imply much about the utilisation of predreadnoughts against dreadnoughts in the general sense.
Older predreadnoughts
Newer predreadnoughts
1st generation dreadnoughts
2nd generation dreadnoughts
Superdreadnoughts
If we take something like a Bayern class and compare it to something like Canopus its a slaughter.
If we take HMS Dreadnought and compare her to something like the Deutschland or Danton classes we see something a lot closer. Theres still a massive advantage to Dreadnought but I would not take HMS Dreadnought against 2 enemy ships in 1907. 10 guns (8 gun broadside) against 8 guns in 2 ships and 2 hulls. HMS Dreadnought should probably use her speed to evade battle (or possible to maneuver to an advantageous position).
In 1915 I might agree to take that engagement (refit to dreadnought with increased elevation on guns and improved fire control early in ww1).
The advantage of the dreadnought is increased in a line of battle where large numbers of both ships are present. It may be difficult for 20 predreadnoughts to get a decent arc of fire against 10 dreadnought battleships. At the very least it would become very hard for some of the predreadnoughts to accurately spot fall of shot. The last dreadnoughts would have half the predreadnoughts attempting to aim at them.
Germans used a number of more modern predreadnoughts in the line of battle up until Jutland. They did not explore techniques for multiple predreadnoughts to attack the same dreadnought in massed fire. Instead they seem to have mainly been used to soak damage at the end of the battle line to prevent Royal Navy from abusing their numerical advantage by focusing multiple dreadnoughts against each german dreadnought.
I see mention of Canopus being beached in the Falklands and I agree that its a massive indictment of the quality of the older predreadnoughts were. The Canopus had an intermediate type of armour inferior to Krupp cemented which was used in all subsequent classes. Her engines were clapped out and her guns were 12 inch 35 calibre shells and she was firing practice rounds for at least some of the engagement.
Many people draw conclusions about predreadnought vs dreadnought engagement by the withdrawals of the Goeben from Russian squadrons. I put forward a different suggestion. There was no suitable source of spare parts or facilities do proper repairs of Goeben on the Blacksea. If she took significant damage she was out of the war. Goeben had to be retained as a fleet in being. Her withdrawals does not imply much about the utilisation of predreadnoughts against dreadnoughts in the general sense.