AHC: More “Shogunates” around the world

GameBawesome

GameBawesome

The title is misleading, but it’s basically this

Challenge: In different parts of the world, from Europe, to Africa, to the Middle East, to other Asian Counties, and to even America (Pre-Columbian or Post) Have prominent and influential Noble families of various, different kingdoms and Empires, become de facto rulers for their nations, and their House or Dynasty holding that title for generations (The title becoming hereditary) while being nominally appointed by their Monarch or head of state (who are just figureheads)
 

Agatho

Abyssinia functioned more or less this way during its decentralized Zemene Mesafint period from 1784-1855. The rulers of Yejju province were usually the Regents for the Emperor, and exercised authority over the other feudal lords much as the shogun did in feudal Japan.
 
Avrorrange

Avrorrange

House of Orange as stadtholder.Might not change the title without French Revolution.

The Pope tells Pepin that the Merovingians are here to stay.Pepin and descendants remain as Mayor of the Palace.
 

Falecius

Buyid Amirs, and Seljuk and Mamluk sultans functioned more or less this way vis-à-vis the late Abbasid Caliphs. I think a similar argument could be made for the later Mughals though I know less about them.
 

John7755 يوحنا

With a different situation, the Merovingian Frankish state would have become like this. It already was this way to a large degree. The holder of the title: Head of the Palace would be the shogun-like entity. The Frankish nobility as the daimyo and the Papacy-Church acting as the imperial court and bureaucracy.
 
Zincvit

Zincvit

The Trinh Lords who ruled Northern Vietnam for approx 242 years could also be classified as a “shogunate” of sorts. Or if Mạc Đăng Dung wasn’t power hungry he could’ve ruled as a “shogun” and would’t have suffered his OTL fate. If the Song was able to resist the Mongols, they might also have gone down that route.
 
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Madhukar_Shah

Falecius said:
. I think a similar argument could be made for the later Mughals though I know less about them.
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Yes, i was gonna suggest maybe an Asaf Jahi Dynasty as hereditary vakils of the entire empire instead of Nizam ul Mulk deciding that Delhi was too mired in corruption and established factions to hope to reform and then setting up his reformed administration in the Deccan so that at least part of the empire was functional. If he had stayed in Delhi and perhaps forcibly isolated the emperor in Agra and been successful, this situation could actually be pretty stable. What he would have to do though is keep any and all imperial princes locked up to prevent them becoming alternate sources of legitimacy, but that's what happened anyway by the various non hereditary viziers.
 

dandan_noodles

Napoleonic victory TL where one general i.e. Suchet gets made supreme commander of forces in Spain, while maintaining Joseph as the titular king of Spain. Suchet becomes effectively military dictator and passes power to his son.
 

AnonymousSauce

I proposed in a different thread having Odoacer not depose Romulus Augustus and ruling as a Shōgun-like figure with him remaining as formal emperor
 

John7755 يوحنا

AnonymousSauce said:
I proposed in a different thread having Odoacer not depose Romulus Augustus and ruling as a Shōgun-like figure with him remaining as formal emperor
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This is a great example and one with great historical precedence. The main issue at hand is to regain Roman suzerainty over the many Germanic generals/lords. Odoacer is certainly a talented man and one able to do such. He could even taken titles that would flatter him, namely 'Great King' thus signifying himself as the military arm and power of the Western Empire, whose emperor acts as the unifying principle for the many Germanic lords. An unorthodox bu interesting atl.
 

Byzantion

GameBawesome said:
The title is misleading, but it’s basically this

Challenge: In different parts of the world, from Europe, to Africa, to the Middle East, to other Asian Counties, and to even America (Pre-Columbian or Post) Have prominent and influential Noble families of various, different kingdoms and Empires, become de facto rulers for their nations, and their House or Dynasty holding that title for generations (The title becoming hereditary) while being nominally appointed by their Monarch or head of state (who are just figureheads)
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Persian Satraps ! Also Alexander's Diadochi system !
 
Sarthak

Sarthak

Emperor Constantine said:
In Nepal the Rana dynasty ruled as hereditary Prime Ministers from 1846 to 1951, reducing the reigning Shah dynasty to figureheads.
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Yes, however the Rana Dynasty and the Kings had absolute power. There was no internal feuding feudal identities. Not like the HRE or Shogunates where the loyalty lay with the Daimyos or the regional dukes. All of the people of Nepal swore allegiance to the crown directly with no intermediary and neither does Nepal have a history of internal feuding inside the Kingdom or the Nepalese Principalities.

If you want to talk about the Nepalese context however, you can somewhat bring up the Kirati Empire and the Lichavi Empire. These were like the Marathas and the Mughals and the autonomy of local petty kings were very high and internal conflicts eventually tore these empires of Nepal apart; much like the 'Shogunate' of Japan. The Kirat and Lichavi Emperor remained Emperor in which 'they were nominal heads and nothing much else except for a few brilliant emperors' and most of the governing was done by the local petty kings. However when the Khas Malla Dynasty took over nepal, they centralized the country and after that point onwards 'shogunate' esque internal wars disappeared slowly.
 
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