Hadrian's Consolidation - reboot
- Thread starter Hecatee
- Start date
Hecatee
Donor
Nope, and for two reasons : I'm not the one who made the wonderfull maps of this timeline (only the crappy MS Paint ones), and also because the rail network will expend rather slowly and either between industrial points on short lines or alongside the existing roman roads.
No, not at first. We'll see a lot of small independant nodes, and at first the main long distance lines will be between legionary fortresses and portuary establishments to ease strategic mobility or between cities with fabricae (ie: large scale military factories, which is an OTL thing) and the main fortresses (here again for logistics) or between rear area grain collection center and military bases (because it is the main bulk product of the empire's trade and logistics network) or between ports and the mega-cities (mainly concerns Rome but also any city above 75k pops' not on a sea port) to help with the feeding of those cities.
This is because :
a) initial capacity is very low due to rail's weakness
b) rail production capacity is very low because they are currently and for some time wooden rails with a sheet of beaten metal on top
c) train production is very low because of metallurgic capacity.
d) roads have to be made by hand (no explosives...) which causes a lot of troubles when tunnels or cliff digging is necessary.
One must understand that in this world we do not have the technological conditions of the OTL Far West era ! While we have some advanced concepts and great theories, we do not have the full theoretical and more importantly practical capacities of OTL, far from it !
Derek Pullem
Donor
I can see this but the other factor is that the Romans already have an infrastructure net based on their roads which could be used / expanded as a railbed (some of the most expensive bits of the track is the actual grading and preparation of the bed itself.)
So some of the military roads behind the limes could be early adopters too.
Hecatee
Donor
True, but one oft overlooked fact was that roman roads were often very steep, including sometime too steep for oxen carts. In some place they were also rather narrow, although in plains they were often made of a central paved road with a good bed, excellent for the move of infantry and pedestrian travelers but which could cause issues with animals, and two lateral dirt roads which were more commonly used by vehicles but could get too muddy if the weather was too wet. So the situation is not a simple 1 to 1 conversion.
The military roads behind the limes are clearly one of the elements I was thinking of when mentioning lines between fortresses.
A slum of Alexandria, Egypt, October 254
Hecatee
Donor
Because I did have some time on hands... (and might have quite some more in the coming weeks as I look for a new job after leaving my current one on Friday because I could no longer tolerate my boss). If anyone needs a Belgian 10+ years experienced IT manager and project leader with a specialization in public healthcare don't hesitate to PM me 
A slum of Alexandria, Egypt, October 254
Epaphos was sick, very sick. His face and body were covered in pustules, all of which had appeared at the same time. Living as he was in a hovel of the fourth floor of a crumbling building of the Egyptian quarter, there was no way he’d get help from anyone, unless he made too much noise or died and began to smell, in which case he’d be thrown out on a trash heap by his neighbors.
The fact was that Epaphos was not the only one to be sick : many of his neighbors were in a similar state to the point that the authorities had taken notice of the epidemic. Already the cities’ main doctors had been called to the governor’s palace to advise on how best to fight the disease overtaking the poors of the Egyptian quarter.
Soldiers were tasked with holding the quarter under quarantine, helped by the massive walls that encircled it. But they all knew it would not be enough… Ships with contaminated people had probably already left the harbor, spreading the disease all around the empire. Fast warships had been sent with dispatches and the telegraphs had also carried a warning, but it was in the hands of the gods, and of the doctors.
They had offered a course : following the recommendations of the great Gallienus they had started to produce vaccine, as the produce of diseased vaccarum was called for the cow pox sickness was thought to be similar to the smallpox that infected the poors of the city.
Already the higher notables of the city had taken the small cut in which some pus from cows’ udder had been inserted, and the vaccination of soldiers and civil servants had begun, before the doctors began to do the same for the general population, with the help of the barbers and other wise women of the poor areas.
At the same time patrols of vaccinated slaves were sent into the streets to collect the dead, escorted by soldiers authorized to break any door from which the smell of a cadaver was perceptible. Food was also delivered to the main squares of the area, military biscuit and porridge mainly, probably better food and in larger quantities than many inhabitants usually had.
Sacred cats from the temples had also been brought to the area to hunt for vermice and thus help control the apparition of other diseases, as recommended by Gallienus. Hopefully the animals would actually do something else than sleeping in the shade !
It was not the first outbreak of the sickness, it came back every twenty years and by now the city continge plan was rather well practiced with some people remembering the previous time in their youth. That’s also why priests in a temple outside the city were tasked with keeping sick cows, as were those in temples near every big city of the empire.
While the sickness would kill many, especially amongst the poor, it would be far better than it would have been without the treatment : while up to one in four infected would die were no measure to be taken, the rate was only of one in ten infected in vaccinated areas, with the infection rate itself being lower.
A slum of Alexandria, Egypt, October 254
Epaphos was sick, very sick. His face and body were covered in pustules, all of which had appeared at the same time. Living as he was in a hovel of the fourth floor of a crumbling building of the Egyptian quarter, there was no way he’d get help from anyone, unless he made too much noise or died and began to smell, in which case he’d be thrown out on a trash heap by his neighbors.
The fact was that Epaphos was not the only one to be sick : many of his neighbors were in a similar state to the point that the authorities had taken notice of the epidemic. Already the cities’ main doctors had been called to the governor’s palace to advise on how best to fight the disease overtaking the poors of the Egyptian quarter.
Soldiers were tasked with holding the quarter under quarantine, helped by the massive walls that encircled it. But they all knew it would not be enough… Ships with contaminated people had probably already left the harbor, spreading the disease all around the empire. Fast warships had been sent with dispatches and the telegraphs had also carried a warning, but it was in the hands of the gods, and of the doctors.
They had offered a course : following the recommendations of the great Gallienus they had started to produce vaccine, as the produce of diseased vaccarum was called for the cow pox sickness was thought to be similar to the smallpox that infected the poors of the city.
Already the higher notables of the city had taken the small cut in which some pus from cows’ udder had been inserted, and the vaccination of soldiers and civil servants had begun, before the doctors began to do the same for the general population, with the help of the barbers and other wise women of the poor areas.
At the same time patrols of vaccinated slaves were sent into the streets to collect the dead, escorted by soldiers authorized to break any door from which the smell of a cadaver was perceptible. Food was also delivered to the main squares of the area, military biscuit and porridge mainly, probably better food and in larger quantities than many inhabitants usually had.
Sacred cats from the temples had also been brought to the area to hunt for vermice and thus help control the apparition of other diseases, as recommended by Gallienus. Hopefully the animals would actually do something else than sleeping in the shade !
It was not the first outbreak of the sickness, it came back every twenty years and by now the city continge plan was rather well practiced with some people remembering the previous time in their youth. That’s also why priests in a temple outside the city were tasked with keeping sick cows, as were those in temples near every big city of the empire.
While the sickness would kill many, especially amongst the poor, it would be far better than it would have been without the treatment : while up to one in four infected would die were no measure to be taken, the rate was only of one in ten infected in vaccinated areas, with the infection rate itself being lower.
Domus Augusta, Rome, May 255
Hecatee
Donor
Domus Augusta, Rome, May 255
The imperial council was gathered in a large and recently refurbished room in the Hadrianic wing of the palace. Twenty men attended to the Emperor, including the two current consuls, the two censors, the heads of the various offices of the administration and six senators personally chosen by the emperor for their wise recommendations and their ability to properly convene his wishes to their peers.
The emperor was seated on a comfortable chair set on a dais, while the members of the concilium were seated on two rows arranged on both sides as if in an odeon, leaving a central space for the person who presented a point.
The Emperor’s seat was somewhat behind the seats of the other members of the concilium, so that none except the speaked in the arena could see his expression. He, on the other hand, could see by the men’s shoulder tension how they reacted to what was being said...
In front of this assembly, a large painted map of the known world. It was a great wonder that this had been painted on a series of thin iron plates coated in varnish to prevent corrosion. Small sculptures held onto it thanks to magnetised stones and two slaves stood next to it with poles whose magnetised tip allowed them to move the sculptures depending on the movements of the legions and auxiliary units.
But while the head of the imperial military concilium, the central organization that managed the overall logistics of the army and the training of the officers in the various schools of the empire, was present, the topic was definitively civilian. Money was once again the issue, especially for what related to trade.
“This is the fifth year in a row that the Serican ships have come with news of strife in that far away land and of troubles in the whole region. This time they even had to repel pirates who attacked them near the Serican coast. At the same time we have reports that the land trade through Parthia has not gained in strength, especially given the instability the Shahanshah is facing following his humbling seven years ago. Most of the fighting takes place in the north-east of his empire, where his erstwhile Scytian allies thought they could strike with impunity and took control of a number of area around the Parthian border with Bactria.”
“This is good for the security of our eastern lands, especially with the plague still weakening us in Syria and Egypt… But on the other hand this disrupt trade and combined with the plague our revenues have fallen considerably. The treasury is in a precarious situation and while the situation is much different from a century ago when the East was almost the only source of wealth in the empire and the northern provinces were only a drain on our resources, it remains that one fourth of our budget comes from the Indian Ocean trade.”
“Indeed, and some essential commodities come from that trade. It is only last week that my cook came to me with my intendant to ask whether I was ready to pay what is being asked for bunna beans !”
“Yes, those prices are outrageous, soon equestrians won’t be able to have any… And I won’t speak of the impact for the army. You know how the drink is being used to keep the vigils on edge at night or to give a boost to soldiers before important operations… Also in the administration I know of many a clerk that could work better but is now slow and looks dimwitted in comparison.”
“Oh, stop complaining. The important news I hear here is that the North and the West are no longer the drain on resources they were. How comes ?”
“Well you know that we only have detailed informations over the last sixty or seventy years, since the rule of the divine Marcus Aurelius. They show that where western cities were usually considered large when they reached 5000 inhabitants, it is now rather common to see them reach 20 or even 25 000 inhabitants. Arlesia, Lutecia, Colonia Agrippina, Argentoratum or Virunum have even above 50 000 inhabitants. Gaul and Germania had around 10 millions inhabitants in the era of the divine Marcus Aurelius, now there are around 15 millions.
Beside cities growing there is also more towns and villages, more land being used all around the West. While in the East the population is relatively stable, in part due to the war of seven years ago, but mainly because the land is already well used, the West sees an impressive growth.
But more importantly this growth has only improved the imperial budget because we have not had to create new units to defend the borders. As you know the praesidis are paid on local budget and while the new positions created by the divine Marcus Aurelius in his administrative reforms do cost a lot, they are also compensated by the overall growth in population and related trade. The growing importance of iron and coal and the opening of new canals in the western provinces have also contributed to this growth of trade.
But not all regions are equals, some remain poorer such as in Hiberia or Britannia. Another bad news if the fact that the gold and silver mines of Iberia and Dacia are producing less than a few decades ago despite having the same operating costs. Of course the steam pumps and new inventions help go dig deeper, and some mines thought empty have been re-opened, but that is truly an issue…”
“In fact the end of the trade with Serica is something of a small boon for us ! While we can trade buno beans for goods produced in the empire, and while we’ve also been able to substitute some of the bullion for the India trade, we’ve always needed silver for the Serican trade : less silver spent there means less issues for producing coins... “
“We really need to find new ways to use less silver and gold in currency…”
“Don’t go debasing the coins ! You know it is always a problem, as seen when one of your predecessor attempted it twenty years ago. And the histories show that if Athens was so strong in trade in the age of the divine Alexander it was thanks to the stable value of its coins !”
“Oh I know well enough, I remember the report that historically minded quaestor inflicted on us three years ago…”
The noise of a staff hitting the dais instantly silenced the councillors.
“As I understand it we are less dependant on foreign trade than ever before, and the further strengthening of the Western provinces will only increase that situation but we need to prevent any military adventurism and keep track of our spendings. Is that so, rationalis summarum ?”
“Yes princeps, so it is.”
“So what can we do concretely to increase the possibilities of trade in the West ? Are ports to be created, rivers to be enlarged, canals to be dug ? Or new automobile tracks laid ?”
“Some interventions might be needed, but those would be best left to evergetism and the normal action of the Rei Machinatori. What I would recommend on the other hand is to actually farm out this kind of infrastructure building for a part of the tax revenues they will bring during a given time, as was done in days of old with tax collection. And set it so that a conglomerate may buy the concession, each member of the conglomerate to share in the revenue according to his investment, likewise as is done by merchants chartering a ship or as tax were collected in the past.”
The imperial council was gathered in a large and recently refurbished room in the Hadrianic wing of the palace. Twenty men attended to the Emperor, including the two current consuls, the two censors, the heads of the various offices of the administration and six senators personally chosen by the emperor for their wise recommendations and their ability to properly convene his wishes to their peers.
The emperor was seated on a comfortable chair set on a dais, while the members of the concilium were seated on two rows arranged on both sides as if in an odeon, leaving a central space for the person who presented a point.
The Emperor’s seat was somewhat behind the seats of the other members of the concilium, so that none except the speaked in the arena could see his expression. He, on the other hand, could see by the men’s shoulder tension how they reacted to what was being said...
In front of this assembly, a large painted map of the known world. It was a great wonder that this had been painted on a series of thin iron plates coated in varnish to prevent corrosion. Small sculptures held onto it thanks to magnetised stones and two slaves stood next to it with poles whose magnetised tip allowed them to move the sculptures depending on the movements of the legions and auxiliary units.
But while the head of the imperial military concilium, the central organization that managed the overall logistics of the army and the training of the officers in the various schools of the empire, was present, the topic was definitively civilian. Money was once again the issue, especially for what related to trade.
“This is the fifth year in a row that the Serican ships have come with news of strife in that far away land and of troubles in the whole region. This time they even had to repel pirates who attacked them near the Serican coast. At the same time we have reports that the land trade through Parthia has not gained in strength, especially given the instability the Shahanshah is facing following his humbling seven years ago. Most of the fighting takes place in the north-east of his empire, where his erstwhile Scytian allies thought they could strike with impunity and took control of a number of area around the Parthian border with Bactria.”
“This is good for the security of our eastern lands, especially with the plague still weakening us in Syria and Egypt… But on the other hand this disrupt trade and combined with the plague our revenues have fallen considerably. The treasury is in a precarious situation and while the situation is much different from a century ago when the East was almost the only source of wealth in the empire and the northern provinces were only a drain on our resources, it remains that one fourth of our budget comes from the Indian Ocean trade.”
“Indeed, and some essential commodities come from that trade. It is only last week that my cook came to me with my intendant to ask whether I was ready to pay what is being asked for bunna beans !”
“Yes, those prices are outrageous, soon equestrians won’t be able to have any… And I won’t speak of the impact for the army. You know how the drink is being used to keep the vigils on edge at night or to give a boost to soldiers before important operations… Also in the administration I know of many a clerk that could work better but is now slow and looks dimwitted in comparison.”
“Oh, stop complaining. The important news I hear here is that the North and the West are no longer the drain on resources they were. How comes ?”
“Well you know that we only have detailed informations over the last sixty or seventy years, since the rule of the divine Marcus Aurelius. They show that where western cities were usually considered large when they reached 5000 inhabitants, it is now rather common to see them reach 20 or even 25 000 inhabitants. Arlesia, Lutecia, Colonia Agrippina, Argentoratum or Virunum have even above 50 000 inhabitants. Gaul and Germania had around 10 millions inhabitants in the era of the divine Marcus Aurelius, now there are around 15 millions.
Beside cities growing there is also more towns and villages, more land being used all around the West. While in the East the population is relatively stable, in part due to the war of seven years ago, but mainly because the land is already well used, the West sees an impressive growth.
But more importantly this growth has only improved the imperial budget because we have not had to create new units to defend the borders. As you know the praesidis are paid on local budget and while the new positions created by the divine Marcus Aurelius in his administrative reforms do cost a lot, they are also compensated by the overall growth in population and related trade. The growing importance of iron and coal and the opening of new canals in the western provinces have also contributed to this growth of trade.
But not all regions are equals, some remain poorer such as in Hiberia or Britannia. Another bad news if the fact that the gold and silver mines of Iberia and Dacia are producing less than a few decades ago despite having the same operating costs. Of course the steam pumps and new inventions help go dig deeper, and some mines thought empty have been re-opened, but that is truly an issue…”
“In fact the end of the trade with Serica is something of a small boon for us ! While we can trade buno beans for goods produced in the empire, and while we’ve also been able to substitute some of the bullion for the India trade, we’ve always needed silver for the Serican trade : less silver spent there means less issues for producing coins... “
“We really need to find new ways to use less silver and gold in currency…”
“Don’t go debasing the coins ! You know it is always a problem, as seen when one of your predecessor attempted it twenty years ago. And the histories show that if Athens was so strong in trade in the age of the divine Alexander it was thanks to the stable value of its coins !”
“Oh I know well enough, I remember the report that historically minded quaestor inflicted on us three years ago…”
The noise of a staff hitting the dais instantly silenced the councillors.
“As I understand it we are less dependant on foreign trade than ever before, and the further strengthening of the Western provinces will only increase that situation but we need to prevent any military adventurism and keep track of our spendings. Is that so, rationalis summarum ?”
“Yes princeps, so it is.”
“So what can we do concretely to increase the possibilities of trade in the West ? Are ports to be created, rivers to be enlarged, canals to be dug ? Or new automobile tracks laid ?”
“Some interventions might be needed, but those would be best left to evergetism and the normal action of the Rei Machinatori. What I would recommend on the other hand is to actually farm out this kind of infrastructure building for a part of the tax revenues they will bring during a given time, as was done in days of old with tax collection. And set it so that a conglomerate may buy the concession, each member of the conglomerate to share in the revenue according to his investment, likewise as is done by merchants chartering a ship or as tax were collected in the past.”
More ports and trade in the West? Oh dear...
Ik once heard that some greeks thought that there were 2 big continents in the West to balance out the world tho I probably have the wrong time period in mind
Hecatee
Donor
The Emperor was thinking more of river ports and Mediterranean ports (although there is no real need there, except maybe some improving of infrastructure such as new moles or piers, but a few on the Atlantic too. Yet no exploration of the western seas yet... (by the way, I don't recall ever hearing that 2 western continents theories, I'd be interested in where it comes from)
Fascinating, it seems that Rome is on the cusp of proto-capitalism with companies that raise funds by selling stocks; and it'll be interesting to see it develop over the next decade into a rudimentary financial system and eventually incorporate bonds as a way to supplement imperial tax revenue in moments like the current dip in Indian Ocean trade.
Hecatee
Donor
Actually the question of wheter or not Rome was proto-capitalist is one of the most discussed topic of roman economic studies, especially before the 2000's. To me the elements we have on the various forms of temporary associations between traders and on loaning practices by the senatorial elite (think Crassus for instance) show that Rome must have been very close to the level of medieval Genova or Venise, to give but two examples. The main problem would be to make the capital move from investment in land and/or private domain production and eventual resale of surplus toward either infrastructure or industry on a pure production scale.
I was aware that there were proto-capitalist elements in Roman times, but I didn't know they reached that level of complexity!
Yep always one of my favorites that old chestnut lol! then there are the (rather old fashioned) arguments about proto-capitalism in the Roman Empire and the growth of the proletariat YAWN...... lol
I would respectfully disagree somewhat as regards to trade associations in that elements of Roman urban society in regards to this were both more advanced and primitive than the merchant republics of Italy. Advanced in that as far as my rather limited research and my vague memories of my degree (12 years ago yikes lol) coursework/textbooks etc relates investment opportunities were limited to certain limited social classes ie the patrician model in the Merchant Republics while in the Roman system it was a matter of cash not racial, religious or ethnic distinctions. Primitive as regards to Venice etc in terms of how the state could direct trade for their own purposes of geopolitical advancement, in Rome trade was haphazard and uncontrolled apart from taxation or the Grain/precious minerals trade.
In Britain the transition between land being the repository of wealth as opposed to ownership of industrial concerns took over 150 years from 1750-1900, the remains are still with us even after the majority was purged by inheritance tax and death duties of post WW2. However one good historical examples was the Wedgewood family who bought land etc but still kept the pottery business. In pre-revolutionary France a lot of bourgeoisie who bought titles etc sold off their commercial or proto industrial concerns due to the whole Nobles cant do anything other than farm, fight and preach!
Rome had none of this crap as far as I know Senators, Equestrians could own slaves, villas, quarries, mines, proto-factories and ships the only limit was money or lack off. I think privatization of the state arms factories would be a start I think (these were I think the largest industrial concerns outside of precious metal mining that the state controlled and owned directly?) this would reduce their costs in theory, however this would place large already ongoing industrial concerns in the hands of most likely groups of investors (perhaps those who had profited from owning part shares in ships rather than the whole enchilada as it were?) or trade associations most often from my own research these consisted of pooled funds for political and burial cost purposes rather than what we all might think of when the word guild is mentioned, that's right the Romans invented over 50's burial insurance!! lol lol
I think that the Rome you have painted for us all has moved beyond the proto-industrial phase into the early industrial age the reason I say this is that as regional specialization in agriculture spreads (mostly in northern Europe but certain products will always travel) with good routes of transportation, internal peace and communication this will decrease the price of certain raw materials (such as wool now carried on your local canal at cut price rates!) reduce agricultural labor demands and make labor costs cheap enough to make localized mass production cheaper, chuck in steam engines for all kinds of stuff (which bored senators just must have for their villa then sell the old model on to buy the new and keep up at court don't you know....) and you get about 1750-1760 UK levels. if anyone says their metal working skills etc if the author say they can make pot boiler arrangements then primitive automotive engines and tracks they must have raised their metal quality/production to levels waaaay above those in the OTL Roman empires height before the crisis's of the third century etc even strap rail takes a rolling mill of some kind no??
P.s. privatizing state assets raises short term cash until serica trade picks up?!
the intetior of spain is one area they shoud, most defintily do it and other areas liket that as well
Well I thought hearing about it during history class while learning about maps and how they first maps op the world where made, but after some research i confused it with the discovery of Australia I think.
Donald Reaver
Donor
He might be thinking of this "Ptolemy was well aware that the Romans knew only about a quarter of the globe[citation needed] and his erroneous belief that the Indian Ocean was landlocked led to expectation of a terra incognita ("unknown land"). In fact, symmetry led him to expect that there should be three other continents to balance the ecumene: Perioeci (lit. "beside the ecumene"), Antoeci ("opposite the ecumene") and the Antipodes (“opposite the feet”)." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecumene
Hecatee
Donor
a number of quick elements thrown here before I go to bed :
- Senators could not, in theory, participate in commercial or industrial ventures, and had to get their money from land, of which they must hold for at least one million sestertii. In practice they went through family connections of equestrian rank to circumvent the rule
- Romans do seem not to have used long term contracts, the compagnies they formed to, for example, farm taxes were short term only so no corporation as we know them
- Letters of change and paper money in general might be an area in which Rome lacks. The control of trading patterns is indeed not present but on the other hand Rome IS the trade in and off itself for most concerned, the Indian Ocean trade, while important in terms of revenues and taxes, is still a very small amount of goods in comparison with other trades (potery, glass, garum...)
- Metalurgy is indeed far in advance of OTL if only because they have chinese-type cast iron availlable for instance, but a lot of their assembly is still manual rivetting only... And the advance is not exactly similar to OTL in terms of order of discoveries so don't take an OTL sequence as happening here, many roads lead to Rome
- Fabricae (state military gear factories) seems to have appeared mainly around Diocletian and/or Constantine but their apparition is somewhat unclear, but their cost might not be what you're thinking of : slaves for instance are not bought by the state, they are simply captured in military operations
- Transports : beware, there is still a huge cost to transport even with a few steamers on the main rivers and many more canals than OTL, so that remains a major slowing factor
-
Hecatee
Donor
Interior of Spain is rather difficult to develop, but Andalousia (Betica in those times) will most certainly benefit from developpments.
Thanks !