You misunderstand, I’m not saying he wasn’t a war criminal. Use of slave labor, participation in mass murder, torture and starvation of POWs. Yeah, dude should have been swinging from a lamppost so far as I’m concerned. I just don’t see how utter incompetence on things like engine development or political maneuvering to replace Goering qualify.
Worst 10 officers of each WWII power.
- Thread starter Spencersj345.346
- Start date
McPherson
Banned
Sarcasm does not translate well to print. I was using war criminal and his other actions together to underline how incompetent and unqualified he was AS a war criminal. Typical Nazi. Want to make precision guided missiles and high performance aircraft and manufacture aero-engines? Use slave labor and bollix the management and designers in place at the factories and engineering establishments with the stinking backstabbing, balkanization, personality wars and petty jealousies we find in the Berlin Maniac's criminal regime.
I just did not write the sarcasm well. I suppose if this Milch had showed up in the UK or the US doing these things, it would have been dismissal and/or prison time. In Russia he would be in a penal battalion or shot, if not a "friend of Stalin".
You’re twisting yourself into a pretzel here. Do I need to post pictures of firebombed Tokyo. Hitler wanted to conquer Eastern Europe and possibly Alsace Lorraine. He went to war with Britain, because they came to the defence of Poland. I’m not saying that was immoral. Nazism is despicable. I’m just not going to pretend that the Attack on Mers-el Kebir was morally justified. I’m a patriotic Canadian. I wouldn’t be surprised if Canadians took part in the attack. It wasn’t morally justified.
There’s no evidence that Hitler wanted to destroy Britain. There’s no evidence that the United States wanted to destroy Japan. Neither the attack on Pearl Harbor or the attack on Mers-el Kebir can be morally justified in my opinion.
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marathag
Banned
Sure it was.
They French didn't have to read between the lines very hard to figure that the RN really, really, wanted those ships unavailable for whatever plans the Germans might come up with, in the Future for those French Ships
Could have come up with the fig leaf of Truth, that they had no option but sail to the USA.
But nope, better them sitting on the sea floor full of holes and dead Frenchmen, Gallic Honor has been observed, in service of Nazi Germany.
The fact that they wanted something is completely irrelevant. By this logic, Pearl Harbor was justified. Did they declare war on France before they started killing their former allies?
How come that now Beaverbrook was also in charge of development? For what exact failures in development he should be blamed?
Alright! *cracks knuckles* It's Italy time! You see, when I did the British the difficulty was finding 10 genuine fuck ups, I managed to find 9 +Churchill and I still feel bad about putting Wavell on the list (if you have a substitution for him I'm all ears). With Italy the trouble is narrowing the list to only ten, and actually knowing who's responsible for what given that Italy changed out officers as frequently as one changes clothes.
(dis)Honourable mention: The entire Fascist regime (Hitler ran a criminal regime. Moose ran a criminally incompetent one. Proof that it wasn't just Moose: it's not like the government did any better managing the war effort after his removal)
1. Mario Roatta (So Guadalajara was such a colossal bruh moment that it convinced some people that tanks were incapable of besting entrenched infantry. And then his idea for beating the Slovene partisans amounted to openly advocating ethnic cleansing. Then, when tasked with defending Rome he convinced the government to make it an open city and to instead defend further south, rather than leading this defence however, his staff car snuck into the government convoy heading the to south, and the six (actually quite powerful) divisions manning the line south of Rome ended up being dumpstered by two German divisions. This guy SOMEHOW makes Bennett look like a Chad!)
2. Inigo Campioni (Sought out a conventional decicive action against the RN, yet on every opportunity choose to play it safe, invalidating his own strategy. Then as governor of Rhodes he attempted to save his position by ordering his men [who vastly out numbered the Germans and were eager to fight] to stand down.)
3. Pietro Badoglio (Built the Italian army into a force that was some how less capable than what it had been in 1918. Failed to convey the magnitude of the Italian army's insufficiencies to Mussolini, essentially offered no resistance to Moose's suicidal orders [Egypt, Greece], later as Prime Minister he completely failed to prepare for Armistice and the German reprisal.)
4. Sebastiano Visconti Prasca (convinced Moose that his forces would be able to swiftly prevail over Greece. They absolutely weren't. Props for being the only Italian to take the War against Germany all the way to Berlin [mind you, that's because he got dismissed, captured, then press ganged])
5. Rodolfo Grazani* (His invasion of Egypt was completely unprepared [despite stalling for time to prepare] and he folded up like origami during Compass. He evidently learned from this though, seeing as how the Battle of Garfagnana was essentially a giant dab on Model, but I'm apprehensive to count that in his favour)
6. Angelo Iachino (DISREGARDED REPORTS OF BRITISH BATTLESHIPS and sent an entire heavy cruiser squadron to Davy Jones' Locker)
7. Ugo Cavallero (sent all of Italy's modern artillery to the Soviet Union, focused on expanding the army rather than improving it's equipment supply, resulting in a further dilution of Italy's mechanized forces)
8. Umberto di Savoia (So, if one of your army commanders convinces you that they aren't prepared to attack on the given date, why do you let your other army commander attack as planned? Speaking of...)
9. Alfredo Guzzoni (lacked assertiveness: as 4th Army commander her agreed to the invasion of France even though his peer had managed to convince the army group commander that the forces were unprepared to attack, as 6th army commander agreed to subordinate all Italian units in areas where Germans operated to German command [effectively subordinating the army to a corps commander] and then he stalled the evacuation of Sicily in order to get permission from Rome [fortunately for him Rome was snappy in its reply])
10. General Giuseppe Tellera (Ground the Babini group down in repeated sorties against the British, got himself killed in one such sortie [why the commander of the 10th army was participating on the frontlines of such a tactical manoeuvre we'll never know)
*oh how tempting it was to put you at number 1. You're so lucky that I'm kind enough to see your stint with the Salo Regime as "remaining loyal to Mussolini" rather than "horrifically betraying your nation" (a decision informed by the fact that he a) wasn't in any command during Operation Achse and accordingly never ordered troops of the Kingdom to surrender or cooperate, and b) seemed to genuinely want to assert the Salo Regime as an independent ally rather than a German client state).
(dis)Honourable mention: The entire Fascist regime (Hitler ran a criminal regime. Moose ran a criminally incompetent one. Proof that it wasn't just Moose: it's not like the government did any better managing the war effort after his removal)
1. Mario Roatta (So Guadalajara was such a colossal bruh moment that it convinced some people that tanks were incapable of besting entrenched infantry. And then his idea for beating the Slovene partisans amounted to openly advocating ethnic cleansing. Then, when tasked with defending Rome he convinced the government to make it an open city and to instead defend further south, rather than leading this defence however, his staff car snuck into the government convoy heading the to south, and the six (actually quite powerful) divisions manning the line south of Rome ended up being dumpstered by two German divisions. This guy SOMEHOW makes Bennett look like a Chad!)
2. Inigo Campioni (Sought out a conventional decicive action against the RN, yet on every opportunity choose to play it safe, invalidating his own strategy. Then as governor of Rhodes he attempted to save his position by ordering his men [who vastly out numbered the Germans and were eager to fight] to stand down.)
3. Pietro Badoglio (Built the Italian army into a force that was some how less capable than what it had been in 1918. Failed to convey the magnitude of the Italian army's insufficiencies to Mussolini, essentially offered no resistance to Moose's suicidal orders [Egypt, Greece], later as Prime Minister he completely failed to prepare for Armistice and the German reprisal.)
4. Sebastiano Visconti Prasca (convinced Moose that his forces would be able to swiftly prevail over Greece. They absolutely weren't. Props for being the only Italian to take the War against Germany all the way to Berlin [mind you, that's because he got dismissed, captured, then press ganged])
5. Rodolfo Grazani* (His invasion of Egypt was completely unprepared [despite stalling for time to prepare] and he folded up like origami during Compass. He evidently learned from this though, seeing as how the Battle of Garfagnana was essentially a giant dab on Model, but I'm apprehensive to count that in his favour)
6. Angelo Iachino (DISREGARDED REPORTS OF BRITISH BATTLESHIPS and sent an entire heavy cruiser squadron to Davy Jones' Locker)
7. Ugo Cavallero (sent all of Italy's modern artillery to the Soviet Union, focused on expanding the army rather than improving it's equipment supply, resulting in a further dilution of Italy's mechanized forces)
8. Umberto di Savoia (So, if one of your army commanders convinces you that they aren't prepared to attack on the given date, why do you let your other army commander attack as planned? Speaking of...)
9. Alfredo Guzzoni (lacked assertiveness: as 4th Army commander her agreed to the invasion of France even though his peer had managed to convince the army group commander that the forces were unprepared to attack, as 6th army commander agreed to subordinate all Italian units in areas where Germans operated to German command [effectively subordinating the army to a corps commander] and then he stalled the evacuation of Sicily in order to get permission from Rome [fortunately for him Rome was snappy in its reply])
10. General Giuseppe Tellera (Ground the Babini group down in repeated sorties against the British, got himself killed in one such sortie [why the commander of the 10th army was participating on the frontlines of such a tactical manoeuvre we'll never know)
*oh how tempting it was to put you at number 1. You're so lucky that I'm kind enough to see your stint with the Salo Regime as "remaining loyal to Mussolini" rather than "horrifically betraying your nation" (a decision informed by the fact that he a) wasn't in any command during Operation Achse and accordingly never ordered troops of the Kingdom to surrender or cooperate, and b) seemed to genuinely want to assert the Salo Regime as an independent ally rather than a German client state).
McPherson
Banned
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Read his wiki page. Did his former soldiers really support him after being liberated from their POW camps.
And the sad thing is that all of these guys are probably considerably better generals then WW1's Luigi Cadorna.
My god that man turned brutally slaughtering Italians on a industrial scale into an art.
Well we actually don't know. One thing to Moose's credit, he sacked people who didn't produce results (and then replaced them with people who also didn't produce results). So none of them ever had the oportunity to be as incompetent as Cardona.
I have no wish to mount a defence for Gordon Bennett but he wasn't a bad officer until he was faced with overwhelming odds in Singapore. His units were the only ones in Malaya that had mounted a credible defence against the Japanese advance. They were handed a bad draw of the cards in Singapore, being given a bad area to defend while the British reserved to themselves (and the Indians) areas to the east. Gordon Bennett's decision to flee to Australia after the surrender was reprehensible and he suffered as a consequence. He was hoping to take over as chief of the Army but had been beaten to it by Blamey who had returned from the Middle East.
Now, Blamey OTOH was a slimy, political general of the worst sort IMO. He had evacuated his son on Crete on a flying boat back to Egypt. When he returned to Australia he was made head of the Army but found it a largely meaningless position when MacArthur was placed over his head as Theatre commander. He called the men of 39 Battalion who had successfully retreated from Kokoda, "Cowards", despite their having suffered appalling losses. He was a bootlicker of the worst sort. When he was Police Commissioner in Victoria, before the war, his police ID medal was found in a brothel after a raid by the Police and it was hushed up.
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Actually, it was simply applying what the Germans had done in 1940 but in reverse. What has always amazed me is that people are too willing to attack Montgomery for Market-Garden when it reality it was because the Germans were better prepared and able to fight an airborne carpet that the Belgians had been.
Browning deserves special mention. He was a protege of Montgomery. He should never have been promoted to command an airborne Corps. His decision to fly into the operation unnecessarily complicated things. The provision of security for his HQ paralysed troops who were better utilised to seize the bridges.
Ian_W
Banned
SOE is heavily at fault for Market Garden, from failing to admit that the Resistance in Holland was run by the Gestapo from 1942 or so.
McPherson
Banned
I hope people who read that thread, understand that I think Montgomery tried a risk that he thought could shorten the war. If I may quote me?
Montgomery said:
Now Browning has his own issues; even Horrocks had some bolos, but MG can be called one of those ad-hockeries where wishes were fishes and the planners used the wrong bait.
Now on the air farce side? (From Wiki)
| Commanders and leaders |
|---|
I've mentioned that BASTARD before in this thread. Nobody has ever explained his appalling mishandling of the air transport turnarounds to my satisfaction. If you want a bozo in Market Garden, there is a good place to start.
Now on the air farce side? (From Wiki)
Commanders and leaders
I've mentioned that BASTARD before in this thread. Nobody has ever explained his appalling mishandling of the air transport turnarounds to my satisfaction. If you want a bozo in Market Garden, there is a good place to start.
The weather was bad in the UK for most of the operation. It delayed flights.