As I said, he had units that had been quite successful in North Africa/Sicily/Italy which had become by June 1944 "canny" after leave at home in the UK before Normandy. 7 Armoured was one. 11th Armoured wasn't. The "canny" units believed they had sacrificed enough and wanted to go home to their families. Let some one else carry the can...
Worst 10 officers of each WWII power.
- Thread starter Spencersj345.346
- Start date
As I said, he had units that had been quite successful in North Africa/Sicily/Italy which had become by June 1944 "canny" after leave at home in the UK before Normandy. 7 Armoured was one. 11th Armoured wasn't. The "canny" units believed they had sacrificed enough and wanted to go home to their families. Let some one else carry the can...
McPherson
Banned
I did. I would, in Gensoul's place, have refused since the British stated they would be the ones who did the demilitarizing. What would you suggest?
The whole affair was ill-conceived as far as I'm concerned. The French Navy was never going to allow the Germans to take over their ships and even though the ships in Toulon were somewhat vulnerable that was certainly not the case with the ships at Mers-El-Kebir. However, the French couldn't be expected to simply hand over their ships to the British either, as that would break the terms of the Armistice. Sending them to the US would mean losing them for the rest of the war, who knows what can happen in the mean time? Sending them to Martinique was the only option that made any sense and even that one was screwed up by adding extra terms on them. Those extra terms were pretty over the top, what were the Bitish afraid of? German panzers conquering Martinique?
Oh I can understand the British desire to get the French fleet out of the equation. If Vichy would join the Axis Sealion suddenly becomes less far-fetched so the British fear is understandable. That doesn't make the ultimatum at Mers-El-Kebir right or the best course of action though.
Agree - apart from Milch - he was the one who was able to get Lw production up, cut out the waste in the aero-factories - from memory told Jeschonnek a 1,000 fighters a month, to get the reply 'what would I do with a 1,000 fighters a month!?' LW - should have said good-bye to Goering and Udet, and had them replaced with Kesselring and Milch.
Surprised though, on the British side no one has mentioned AVM Trafford Leigh-Mallory - promoted to the wrong position, got fixated over the 'Big-Wing' failed in the BoB, failed over France in 1941 and failed again over Dieppe in 1942.
IN any ATL of the BoB (where Britain does better) he'd be the first Commander not to be involved.
Hitler had proved time and time again that he wasn't to be trusted and he wanted to be in a position that he could easily threaten the UK should he want it. There was no reason to trust him, nor give him anymore that what he wanted, which was complete mastery of Europe. And looking into what the Nazi leadership was planning to do to the UK had their wildest dreams in regards to Operation Sealion come true, then destruction is a very close to what they were looking to do.
Probably of Hitler offering Vichy terms that would take it to co-belligerent ally status.
McPherson
Banned
Tooze, A. (2007). The Wages of Destruction: The Making and Breaking of the Nazi Economy. Viking Press (pp505-510 inclusive.)
1. War criminal. Made deals with the SS and with German aviation to employ massed slave labor in aircraft factories to produce aircraft. One has to ask if those BF109Gs with the fouled up cable runs and shoddy tail assemblies, that the USAAF was using for target practice, might have been a result of these policies?
2. War criminal. Personal vendettas I: I can understand a competent procurement officer taking one look at the Me210 and saying, "Nix, nein, Frankenstein!", but instead of cancelling the whole shebang, go into the Me310 and 410 anyway because he wanted to please Goering and be a good Nazi?!?
3. Did I mention war criminal? Personal vendettas II. Held grudges against, especially specifically against Hugo Junkers as well as Willy Messerschmidt and their companies, too. Milch made many of his STUPID decisions based on his personality and vendetta hatreds instead of objective aircraft performance metrics and results. "Handsome Willie" I understand; because that oily slick politician type was more of a lobbyist than a trained aviation engineer, but Hugo Junkers and HIS successor company (Which Milch helped steal control for the Nazis after Hugo died in 1935 from Terese Junkers.)? Many of the delays on promising Junkers projects had MILCH stamped all over them.
4. War criminal: He177. THAT was his f-ckup 100% down the line including the engine disasters and after Udet died even included the dive bombing feature. Sheesh.
5. War criminal: tried to side with Speer to take Goering's job. Goering fired him and unusually made it stick.
6. War criminal: much of the foul-ups in the DB605 engine program are Milch's procurement indecisions, micro-managing and fault. Want to see where the chaos in overall German aero engine development starts? Milch.
That is just the tip of the iceberg.
Last edited:
McPherson
Banned
I can answer that one. Gensoul makes the "right" call.
15 December 1941.
The French fleet sitting at Fort de France receives a quick visit from USN technical experts from Bu-ships and the Fleet Marine Force and LANTFLT.
Taking the MNS Richelieu as an example?
Extrapolate for the 2 Strasbourgs, the 6 Magadors and the Commandante Teste.
I doubt Bearn (Instant BOA CVE candidate), Bretagne or Provence (slow convoy escorts) are worth the rebuilds. The other 10 destroyers are too short ranged and unseaworthy for the USN PACFLT but can be back-fitted with Sonar and ASW weapons for the BOA. Free French all of them.
Everything else? 7 December 1941, now where do you think that "free" French-donated hardware is headed?
Last edited:
Reported 21st Army Group Sherman losses - June 66, July 186, August 547 (which almost certainly includes a lot re Goodwood)
US losses June 187, July 224
Last edited:
McPherson
Banned
Discussion.
Numbers conflict. Shrug. Debatable. I know US drawdowns were SEVERE and I suspect that includes 21st Army Group, too.
You missed this one
Later discussion
US issues may have had more to do with the low monthly loss rate allowance, than very high losses.
I still laugh when I think of what happened when Milch surrendered. The rather smug bastard handed his marshals baton to a British commando. Said commando had literally just participated in the liberation of a Nazi concentration camp. So the Commando looked at Milch with a look of disgust on his face and proceeded to break the baton over Milch's head knocking him out.
Ehh by that point you'd have to be a fool or completely shitfaced to actually believe Hitler would stick with any agreement in anything but the shortest term.
McPherson
Banned
The British used a different metric for mission kill but repairable. Their records and procedures were different as it would be for any national army. This may account for the differences in some of the numbers. Anyway I do KNOW from the discussions that British numbers, even the later discussions seen thus far are too low,..
Last edited:
You'd be hard pressed to find a worse stain on the reputation of senior officers than this disgrace to the Commonwealth of Australia. 50 years earlier he'd have found a loaded revolver and a class of whisky in his quarters and been expected to do the honourable thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Bennett_(general)
Last edited:
I might be missing something but only one of those sounds like a war criminal thing. Still should have been enough to see him swinging but the rest just seem like internal politics.
Last edited:
McPherson
Banned
Many regard the association with the SS and its factory system and politics as evidence of complicity in their war crimes (Dornberger, von Braun, and the V-2 program for example.) I happen to agree with that assessment. The internal Luftwaffe/SS politics was part of those war-crimes.
Conspiracy to wage wars of aggression might be a covering charge?