Proposals and War Aims That Didn't Happen Map Thread

[Crazy Boris]

And now, for one of the most insane ideas yet shown on this thread:

I mean, at least it’s *a* solution

Not one that would last a full 24 hours before collapsing into like 50 different ethnic and religious separatist rebellions that would make 1990s Yugoslavia look tame and probably end up devastating Israel rather than helping it

But the ensuing chaos would be interesting at the very least, so there’s that

In all seriousness, I have to believe that this is at least in some part a joke meant to make a point about the Arab-Israeli conflict. I don’t know what point, but that’s the only way that video would make sense.

 

[Christory]

In all seriousness, I have to believe that this is at least in some part a joke meant to make a point about the Arab-Israeli conflict. I don’t know what point, but that’s the only way that video would make sense.

There are already a few people seriously pushing for the "Nile to Euphrates" Greater Israel idea, so it wouldn't surprise me if this were real.

Honestly I'm a little surprised PragerU didn't think of this first.

 

[TheKutKu]

So I think many of you know about the Acadian Deportation, but what is surprising is that the French were also ready to deport the acadians if necessary.

from
« L’expédition du duc d’Anville »Guy Frégault, Revue d'histoire de l'Amérique française, vol. 2, n° 1, 1948, p. 27-52.

In preparation of the (failed) Expedition of the Duke D'anville, which had as goal to retake Louisbourg (which had been taken the year before), retake Acadia, and "lay waste to Boston", Louis XV gave the radical order:
"If Anville judges that some Acadian are not loyal [to the crown], he would force them out of the colony, and send them either to Old England or somewhere in the colonies of England according to the ease of doing so, and he would ask them to pledge loyalty to His Majesty"

Considering the Neutrality of the Acadians, it isn't hard to imagine many refusing to do so. France deporting thousands of Acadians to English Colonies (likely somewhere in the Thirteen colonies beyond the Kennebec River, France's claimed borders of Acadia, or maybe possibly Newfoundland?)

Guy Frégault comments: "The two European motherlands have the same intent in common, maybe France's only crdit is that they had been in the Physical impossibility to commit the same crime which would bring shame on its rival"

 

[Analytical Engine]

The Acadians just can't catch a break...

 

[da Racontor]

So I think many of you know about the Acadian Deportation, but what is surprising is that the French were also ready to deport the acadians if necessary.

from
« L’expédition du duc d’Anville »Guy Frégault, Revue d'histoire de l'Amérique française, vol. 2, n° 1, 1948, p. 27-52.

In preparation of the (failed) Expedition of the Duke D'anville, which had as goal to retake Louisbourg (which had been taken the year before), retake Acadia, and "lay waste to Boston", Louis XV gave the radical order:
"If Anville judges that some Acadian are not loyal [to the crown], he would force them out of the colony, and send them either to Old England or somewhere in the colonies of England according to the ease of doing so, and he would ask them to pledge loyalty to His Majesty"

Considering the Neutrality of the Acadians, it isn't hard to imagine many refusing to do so. France deporting thousands of Acadians to English Colonies (likely somewhere in the Thirteen colonies beyond the Kennebec River, France's claimed borders of Acadia, or maybe possibly Newfoundland?)

Guy Frégault comments: "The two European motherlands have the same intent in common, maybe France's only crdit is that they had been in the Physical impossibility to commit the same crime which would bring shame on its rival"

I may be wrong, but from the sound of it this was only if the Acadians had come to see themselves as English subjects and refused the loyalty oath. Not much better in the humanity department but a slighty better reason than stealing land and they are a different religion

 

[htgriffin]

Yikes

Do you know what the odd part is? The easiest serious One-State Solution IMO would boil down grafting the West Bank and (poss.) Gaza onto the Israeli state whilst granting full citizenship rights/protections to the people there along with lumping any of the Palestinian diaspora that want to come back under the existing Law of Return.

(and getting the co-official status of Arabic back on the books... only take it seriously)

(not to mention shutting down all the party militias they way the Irgun and so forth were shut down when things got started)

Implementation would be a headache and dealing with the property claims would take decades, not to mention convincing everyone that possibly being merely 30-40-odd percent of the population is not step one for clearing the Jews out, but it would make vastly more sense than... that.

In all seriousness, I have to believe that this is at least in some part a joke meant to make a point about the Arab-Israeli conflict. I don’t know what point, but that’s the only way that video would make sense.

They could be simply claiming Everyone Else In The Mid East Suck.

 

[TheKutKu]

I may be wrong, but from the sound of it this was only if the Acadians had come to see themselves as English subjects and refused the loyalty oath. Not much better in the humanity department but a slighty better reason than stealing land and they are a different religion

Not even that, the text above and before that quote says that Louis XV had large doubts on the loyalty of all the Acadians, and the order explicitly targeted any Acadians who didn’t swear alliegance to the king, neutrals included.

 

[Not Plato]

Speaking of which, why did the Acadians get deported while the French Canadians were (relatively) fine?

 

[da Racontor]

Not even that, the text above and before that quote says that Louis XV had large doubts on the loyalty of all the Acadians, and the order explicitly targeted any Acadians who didn’t swear alliegance to the king, neutrals included.

The thing is while we find any mass deportation deplorable the morals at the time (at least among the aristocracy) would not have seen an issue with deporting a obstinately disloyal population which is at best what they would have been viewed as at worst they would have been viewed as actively working against the state, especially since they were originally French.
The English did try to use the excuse that they "would be disloyal" but since the Acadian did swear the loyal oath so that excuse didn't hold water.

Speaking of which, why did the Acadians get deported while the French Canadians were (relatively) fine?

A few reason, one of the big reasons was the population of French Canada was too large and well entrench to pull off an operation like that. Also had a history of fighting the English while the Acadians didn't so it was theoretically easier to carry out with less chance of resisting.

 

[SnivyLink]

Not even that, the text above and before that quote says that Louis XV had large doubts on the loyalty of all the Acadians, and the order explicitly targeted any Acadians who didn’t swear alliegance to the king, neutrals included.

So he went by the philosophy of "If you are not with me, you are against me"

 

[oshron]

So he went by the philosophy of "If you are not with me, you are against me"

so Louis XV was a Sith?

 

[TheKutKu]

So he went by the philosophy of "If you are not with me, you are against me"

Only a Bourbon deals in absolute (monarchy)...

 

[Oliveia]

Let me show to you, the magnum opus of one Mr. Rexford Tugwell (a member of Franklin D. Roosevelt's Brain Trust and Governor of Puerto Rico): The Emerging Constitution.

 

[Oliveia]

What exactly are we looking at? A proposed revision of the US Constitution?

Yeah. Also had plans to renovate the United States to the Newstates or something, with like a couple big Newstates.

 

[da Racontor]

Let me show to you, the magnum opus of one Mr. Rexford Tugwell (a member of Franklin D. Roosevelt's Brain Trust and Governor of Puerto Rico): The Emerging Constitution.

This would make a great timeline! It's a bit too resent for my expertise though.

 

[Mr. Bubbles]

Here we have Hitler's plan for the reconstruction of Berlin into a grand capital for his Thousand-Year Reich. Designed largely by Albert Speer, it would've featured the following, among many others:
* The Volkshalle- Probably the most famous and the centerpiece of the whole project, the Volkshalle was to be a massive domed amphitheater capable of seating 180,000 people at a time. At 290 meters (950 ft) tall, it would've been bigger than the Great Pyramid of Giza, and would have become host to its own microclimate just from the people inside breathing.
* A triumphal arc measuring 117 meters (383 ft) high and 170 meters (557 ft) wide, which would have been erected after World War II and would have included the names of all Germans who had fallen in past wars.
* Massive new systems of roads, autobahns, and railways. Berlin was to be reorganized along a central 5km (3 mi) boulevard known as the Prachtallee, or Victory Avenue.
* The former Anhalter Bahnhof made into a public swimming pool.

A few of the goals of the project, like widening Charlottenburger Chaussee and placing the Berlin victory column in the center, have stuck around to the present day.

Outside Berlin, a few other buildings the Nazis planned were:
* Deutsches Stadion- A massive stadium in Nuremberg, able to seat 405,000 people at a time. It was going to be host to all Olympic games for the rest of history had the Nazis won.
* The Museum to the Extinct Race- The Jewish Museum in Prague was to be reorganized and basically used as a propaganda tool to teach future generations a distorted view of the Jewish people and how the Nazis "freed" Europe from them.

 

[WheelyWheelyLegsNoFeely]

Here we have Hitler's plan for the reconstruction of Berlin into a grand capital for his Thousand-Year Reich. Designed largely by Albert Speer, it would've featured the following, among many others:
* The Volkshalle- Probably the most famous and the centerpiece of the whole project, the Volkshalle was to be a massive domed amphitheater capable of seating 180,000 people at a time. At 290 meters (950 ft) tall, it would've been bigger than the Great Pyramid of Giza, and would have become host to its own microclimate just from the people inside breathing.
* A triumphal arc measuring 117 meters (383 ft) high and 170 meters (557 ft) wide, which would have been erected after World War II and would have included the names of all Germans who had fallen in past wars.
* Massive new systems of roads, autobahns, and railways. Berlin was to be reorganized along a central 5km (3 mi) boulevard known as the Prachtallee, or Victory Avenue.
* The former Anhalter Bahnhof made into a public swimming pool.

A few of the goals of the project, like widening Charlottenburger Chaussee and placing the Berlin victory column in the center, have stuck around to the present day.

Outside Berlin, a few other buildings the Nazis planned were:
* Deutsches Stadion- A massive stadium in Nuremberg, able to seat 405,000 people at a time. It was going to be host to all Olympic games for the rest of history had the Nazis won.
* The Museum to the Extinct Race- The Jewish Museum in Prague was to be reorganized and basically used as a propaganda tool to teach future generations a distorted view of the Jewish people and how the Nazis "freed" Europe from them.

I'm not an architect or engineer, so out of curiosity, in the event of a Nazi victory, how feasible would these construction plans actually be? I'm not sure about the Volkshalle in particular.

 

[TheKutKu]

Yeah the Nazi Urbanists were really mad, and i can't imagine how badly this would age.

But there is something far more terrifying about a post war Victorious Nazi Urban Planning:

One of the Nazi Interpretation of the Heimatstil architecture ( a late 19th/early 20th movement in germanic countries to go back to a more traditional, folklore inspired architecture), ironically, was to create what are basically American-Style suburbs. The Nazi would have Suburban Sprawl.

But it gets worse, these traditional housing would be used in the colonies in the east, being "vernacular, traditional", almost close to nature, closer than cities at least, it could perfectly be used in the Reichkomissariats for german colonists, they won't exactly lack available land either.

Imagine one second, Moscow (or any other large soviet city, Moscow was supposed to be transformed into a lake but it's kinda unlikely, but you can replace it with Stalingrad or Leningrad), more than a decade after the defeat of the USSR, its population was forced to destroy it, all its buildings and old architecture destroyed, then those who survived that are forced to build these terrible, soulless Suburbs before being sumarilly killed.

It would be empty of course, the native population got exterminated and there aren't nearly enough German colonists to populate it, but it would sitll be built because of a mix of a giant money laundering project (Nazis were expert at corruption naturally), and a massive propaganda effort, it would be like those empty chinese cities around beijing but on a greater scale and with a far more terrible history.

Imagine these dead, empty suburbs spreading beyond the horizon, there would be no sound but the noise of wind and the occasional loudspeaker blaring propaganda, below them would be the bodies of millions of slaves.

 

[Mr. Bubbles]

I'm not an architect or engineer, so out of curiosity, in the event of a Nazi victory, how feasible would these construction plans actually be? I'm not sure about the Volkshalle in particular.

To put it lightly, not well.

They tested what was called the Schwerbelastungskörper, a huge concrete cylinder, to see if the arch, and by extension all of these other giant buildings, would be feasible in Berlin. The acceptable margin of error was only 6 cm. After 2 1/2 years, it had sunk by 19. Berlin's soft, marshy soil just wasn't capable of supporting these massive structures and, without a necessarily massive stabilization project, all of them would've gradually sunk had they ever been built.

 

[Mr. Bubbles]

Yeah the Nazi Urbanists were really mad, and i can't imagine how badly this would age.

But there is something far more terrifying about a post war Victorious Nazi Urban Planning:

One of the Nazi Interpretation of the Heimatstil architecture ( a late 19th/early 20th movement in germanic countries to go back to a more traditional, folklore inspired architecture), ironically, was to create what are basically American-Style suburbs. The Nazi would have Suburban Sprawl.

But it gets worse, these traditional housing would be used in the colonies in the east, being "vernacular, traditional", almost close to nature, closer than cities at least, it could perfectly be used in the Reichkomissariats for german colonists, they won't exactly lack available land either.

Imagine one second, Moscow (or any other large soviet city, Moscow was supposed to be transformed into a lake but it's kinda unlikely, but you can replace it with Stalingrad or Leningrad), more than a decade after the defeat of the USSR, its population was forced to destroy it, all its buildings and old architecture destroyed, then those who survived that are forced to build these terrible, soulless Suburbs before being sumarilly killed.

It would be empty of course, the native population got exterminated and there aren't nearly enough German colonists to populate it, but it would sitll be built because of a mix of a giant money laundering project (Nazis were expert at corruption naturally), and a massive propaganda effort, it would be like those empty chinese cities around beijing but on a greater scale and with a far more terrible history.

Imagine these dead, empty suburbs spreading beyond the horizon, there would be no sound but the noise of wind and the occasional loudspeaker blaring propaganda, below them would be the bodies of millions of slaves.

Well that certainly sounds creepy and soulless as hell. Sounds more like the setting for a horror movie than an urban project to aspire to.