The Anglo/American - Nazi War

[JamesHunter]

How different would the Hot War have been if Hitler remained in good health and didn’t have a stroke allowing Himmler to take charge in 1958?

How about if Goebbels or Goering were in the room when he had the stroke instead of Himmler?

Goering: Knocks Himmler about the head, tries to take power. Fails. Civil war.
Goebbels: Reluctantly backs Himmler for multiple bungs (pretty much as is).

Hitler lives probably no bio/chemical attacks (his fear of them was about his only restraint and even then only on the battlefield). Probably a slower advance but Germany maybe doesn't get nuked and anthraxed (although tactical and strategic nuke strikes are likely inevitable sooner or later). War might last an extra year but with less casualties over all. Assuming the illness lets him he probably does himself as the allies close in, if not he gets a bodyguard to give the coup, no way he lets himself get taken alive.

Beyond that I'm sure Calbear would have some amazing ideas.

 

[frustrated progressive]

Just to confirm, the exclusion zones are terra nullius, and not attached to any of the particular statelets?

 

[trekchu]

How different would the Hot War have been if Hitler remained in good health and didn’t have a stroke allowing Himmler to take charge in 1958?

Given that hitler had 1) Parkinsons, 2) wasn't in good health since the 30s because of 3) The utterly moronic and incompetent so-called medical treatments by Morell and others, it's amazing he lived as long as he did. Sure, the war not going to shit from 1943 onwards certainly helps, but that he lived as long as he did is somewhat surprising.

 

[CalBear]

Just to confirm, the exclusion zones are terra nullius, and not attached to any of the particular statelets?

Correct.

 

[CalBear]

Given that hitler had 1) Parkinsons, 2) wasn't in good health since the 30s because of 3) The utterly moronic and incompetent so-called medical treatments by Morell and others, it's amazing he lived as long as he did. Sure, the war not going to shit from 1943 onwards certainly helps, but that he lived as long as he did is somewhat surprising.

I actually had a good deal of... feedback from folks regarding Hitler surviving into 1954 when I was getting the T/L started. My basis for having him live as long ATL is that his stress level was much lower and wasn't quite as cranked up all the time.

 

[trekchu]

I actually had a good deal of... feedback from folks regarding Hitler surviving into 1954 when I was getting the T/L started. My basis for having him live as long ATL is that his stress level was much lower and wasn't quite as cranked up all the time.

My condolences. That said, I was mostly referring to the "in good health" part and kinda annoyed with something IRL when I wrote that. His living until 1954 isn't too out there, if still unusual, but this spawn of Satan's asscrack was never in good healt at any point after 1941.

 

[Bookmark1995]

Given that hitler had 1) Parkinsons, 2) wasn't in good health since the 30s because of 3) The utterly moronic and incompetent so-called medical treatments by Morell and others, it's amazing he lived as long as he did. Sure, the war not going to shit from 1943 onwards certainly helps, but that he lived as long as he did is somewhat surprising.

Let us add that he may or may have not have had syphilis, and he may have been the sickest European leader since King Charles of Spain.

Goering: Knocks Himmler about the head, tries to take power. Fails. Civil war.
Goebbels: Reluctantly backs Himmler for multiple bungs (pretty much as is).

Hitler lives probably no bio/chemical attacks (his fear of them was about his only restraint and even then only on the battlefield). Probably a slower advance but Germany maybe doesn't get nuked and anthraxed (although tactical and strategic nuke strikes are likely inevitable sooner or later). War might last an extra year but with less casualties over all. Assuming the illness lets him he probably does himself as the allies close in, if not he gets a bodyguard to give the coup, no way he lets himself get taken alive.

Beyond that I'm sure Calbear would have some amazing ideas.

Well, one of things that really pissed off the Allies was murdering members of royal family, and Himmler having the nerve to ask for reparations. So it is possible that Germany might have gotten some leniency.

But would Hitler have trashed Western Europe as badly as Himmler did? Would people ITTL have seen France and the Low Countries reduced to a smoky crater?

My condolences. That said, I was mostly referring to the "in good health" part and kinda annoyed with something IRL when I wrote that. His living until 1954 isn't too out there, if still unusual, but this spawn of Satan's asscrack was never in good healt at any point after 1941.

OTL, Hitler was facing a losing war, and this obviously exacerbated his physical and mental deterioration. It is possible being flushed with victory TTL could've made him lived a lot longer. But it is also possible his Parkinson's and his horrendous medical treatments could've led him to the grave much earlier.

History teaches me that health is a really, really fickle thing.​

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Boris Yeltsin lived one of the most self-destructive lifestyles imaginable for a world leader. OTL, Alexander Lebed's description of his health is almost nightmarish. And he still lived a reasonable 76 years.

Winston Churchill smoked, drank, and ate. He lived to be 90!

Otto Von Bismarck was an incredibly indulgent man, he was wounded several times in an assassination, and he lived to be 83.

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[JamesHunter]

Well, one of things that really pissed off the Allies was murdering members of royal family, and Himmler having the nerve to ask for reparations. So it is possible that Germany might have gotten some leniency.

But would Hitler have trashed Western Europe as badly as Himmler did? Would people ITTL have seen France and the Low Countries reduced to a smoky crater?

Hard to say, OTL Hitler wanted to do it (Nero order etc) but when push came to shove his underlings wouldn't do it, with more than a decade more in power though and nutjob SS replacing the Heer I'd say them being able to stop it is unlikely. That said Speer would still have his ear and probably would defy the order again...at least in Germany but again Nutjobs conditioned to see Hitler as God on Earth...

He is a sick old man and he could give up as he did OTL but its just impossible to say what will happen, although if the Stroke is a health scare but not a killer old Heinrich will be out of a job the second Hitler can sit up in bed (if not before). Hitler couldn't have cared less about who replaced him...once he was dead especially if his Wagnarian world view is being borne out by events, trying to replace him while he's still breathing? That's a complete non starter.

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[Bookmark1995]

Hard to say, OTL Hitler wanted to do it (Nero order etc) but when push came to shove his underlings wouldn't do it, with more than a decade more in power though and nutjob SS replacing the Heer I'd say them being able to stop it is unlikely. That said Speer would still have his ear and probably would defy the order again...at least in Germany but again Nutjobs conditioned to see Hitler as God on Earth...

He is a sick old man and he could give up as he did OTL but its just impossible to say what will happen, although if the Stroke is a health scare but not a killer old Heinrich will be out of a job the second Hitler can sit up in bed (if not before). Hitler couldn't have cared less about who replaced him...once he was dead especially if his Wagnarian world view is being borne out by events, trying to replace him while he's still breathing? That's a complete non starter.

I know that TTL, Goering was already shown the door. So if Hitler had died in a more public way, who would've replaced him, and would they have been as brutality monstrous as Himmler?

I have a feeling that Himmler's own actions were what drove the Allies to permanently break apart Germany.

 

[JamesHunter]

I know that TTL, Goering was already shown the door. So if Hitler had died in a more public way, who would've replaced him, and would they have been as brutality monstrous as Himmler?

I have a feeling that Himmler's own actions were what drove the Allies to permanently break apart Germany.

Probably its kind of hard to tell. If nothing else after twenty years of war and a hundred million dead they were never going to let the Bismarckian Reich survive intact this time. They might be prepared to let some of the old states stay intact without the bio and chemical weapon attacks but certainly no greater Germany and probably no reunitiing for at least a century.

As to potental replacements that's Goebbels, Speer or Himmler himself. Absent the secret illness I expect an attempt by the party to unite around an "anyone by Himmler" candidate (nobody likes the hatchet man in any regime) so possibly Speer on the grounds he's a bit of a non-entity, good at his job and has the "Hitler's friend" aspect to him.

 

[Bookmark1995]

Probably its kind of hard to tell. If nothing else after twenty years of war and a hundred million dead they were never going to let the Bismarckian Reich survive intact this time. They might be prepared to let some of the old states stay intact without the bio and chemical weapon attacks but certainly no greater Germany and probably no reunitiing for at least a century.

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But Himmler's demented attempts to prolong the war were really the straw that broke the camels back. Not just on the need to wipe Nazism from the face of the Earth, but to eliminate a unified Germany. Because unified Germany has proven to be the most verminous force on Earth ITTL.

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As to potental replacements that's Goebbels, Speer or Himmler himself. Absent the secret illness I expect an attempt by the party to unite around an "anyone by Himmler" candidate (nobody likes the hatchet man in any regime) so possibly Speer on the grounds he's a bit of a non-entity, good at his job and has the "Hitler's friend" aspect to him.

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Would Speer ITTL have decided to throw in the towel? And would this have been enough to allow for a united Germany, at least?

 

[Whiteshore]

OTL, Alexander Lebed's description of his health is almost nightmarish.

Any details on this?

 

[JamesHunter]

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But Himmler's demented attempts to prolong the war were really the straw that broke the camels back. Not just on the need to wipe Nazism from the face of the Earth, but to eliminate a unified Germany. Because unified Germany has proven to be the most verminous force on Earth ITTL.

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Would Speer ITTL have decided to throw in the towel? And would this have been enough to allow for a united Germany, at least?

Germany was getting broken up and sat on, to much blood for anything else but Speer giving up would save lives, assuming the SS would let him.

 

[Bookmark1995]

Here's an in-universe ATL that I am curious about, @CalBear :

What if Hitler dies before he can launch his unprovoked attack on the US and Britain? And what if more...pragmatic Nazis were to come to power after his death?

Let's say these Nazis make some economic and political reforms, roll back some of the brutalization of Eastern Europe, and try and seek some kind of "reconciliation" with America.

How long could they have prolonged a collapse of the Nazi system?

 

[ccdsah]

I wonder if Calbear can answer something; What if there is a lasting peace with America after 1945 (no 1954 attacks), how long would the Eastern Europe insurgency last? I mean in OTL USSR managed to pacify Eastern Europe eventually since it had peace with NATO.

 

[CalBear]

Here's an in-universe ATL that I am curious about, @CalBear :

What if Hitler dies before he can launch his unprovoked attack on the US and Britain? And what if more...pragmatic Nazis were to come to power after his death?

Let's say these Nazis make some economic and political reforms, roll back some of the brutalization of Eastern Europe, and try and seek some kind of "reconciliation" with America.

How long could they have prolonged a collapse of the Nazi system?

Depends on how pragmatic.

The base problem of the Reich WAS the Nazi Party. Change them enough that they are no longer stealing everything that is insufficiently welded in place, stop murdering, on an industrial scale, anyone who doesn't fit into their ubermensch standards, and supporting their economy by territorial acquisition by force of arms and they are no longer the Nazis.

Biggest issue for WAllies actually would be France and the Low Countries. Into the early ATL '50s the WAllies still saw them as occupied friends, no fellow travelers with Berlin (something that was true into ATL 1948-49 when it became clear that the Calvary wasn't going to be riding over the horizon and France especially decided it had to accept the new order and do what it could to regain it place in European affairs).

 

[CalBear]

I wonder if Calbear can answer something; What if there is a lasting peace with America after 1945 (no 1954 attacks), how long would the Eastern Europe insurgency last? I mean in OTL USSR managed to pacify Eastern Europe eventually since it had peace with NATO.

As long as it took the Reich to hunt down the partisan bands. By 1945-46 the Partisans were almost entirely unsupported except for the rare smuggled in supply drop coming through Finland. The groups had actually pretty much become what the Reich's propaganda claimed, bandits, except the survivors played a version of Robin Hood and his Merry Men, but without the tights. They didn't steal from the local peasants, if fact they would try to support the villages when they managed to get a really good score while hitting either a Reich or Soviet government convoy.

 

[Bookmark1995]

Depends on how pragmatic.

The base problem of the Reich WAS the Nazi Party. Change them enough that they are no longer stealing everything that is insufficiently welded in place, stop murdering, on an industrial scale, anyone who doesn't fit into their ubermensch standards, and supporting their economy by territorial acquisition by force of arms and they are no longer the Nazis.

Biggest issue for WAllies actually would be France and the Low Countries. Into the early ATL '50s the WAllies still saw them as occupied friends, no fellow travelers with Berlin (something that was true into ATL 1948-49 when it became clear that the Calvary wasn't going to be riding over the horizon and France especially decided it had to accept the new order and do what it could to regain it place in European affairs).

But if the Nazis had continued their spree of mass murder and looting, how long would they have lasted without a war with the US and Britain?

As long as it took the Reich to hunt down the partisan bands. By 1945-46 the Partisans were almost entirely unsupported except for the rare smuggled in supply drop coming through Finland. The groups had actually pretty much become what the Reich's propaganda claimed, bandits, except the survivors played a version of Robin Hood and his Merry Men, but without the tights. They didn't steal from the local peasants, if fact they would try to support the villages when they managed to get a really good score while hitting either a Reich or Soviet government convoy.

I bet there are a ton of movies and books ITTL about those partisans who risked their lives but still tried to help the downtrodden. In the post-Nazi era, the Eastern European states might even give them statues.

 

[Bookmark1995]

Any details on this?

To quote "Wikiquote":

He's been on the verge of death so many times. … His doctors themselves are in shock that he's still alive. Half the blood vessels in his brain are about to burst after his strokes, his intestines are spotted all over with holes, he has giant ulcers in his stomach, his heart is in absolutely disgusting condition, he is literally rotting … He could die from any one of dozens of physical problems that he has, but contrary to all laws of nature — he lives.

 

[Johannes Parisiensis]

By 1945-46 the Partisans were almost entirely unsupported except for the rare smuggled in supply drop coming through Finland.

I would have thought Finland would be aligned with the Axis powers, and thus unwilling to pass weapons to anti-German armed groups.