Stupid Luck and Happenstance, Thread II

Sadly, given the hypocrisy of the speech given how the US itself was formed, and given how one eyed and nationalistic many people from the US seem to be OTL, I can the US population swallowing this hook line and sinker.

So how long until the US decides to invade Canada to save them from the evil English overlords?
 
Part 94, Chapter 1480
Chapter One Thousand Four Hundred Eighty


28th March 1962

Near Tongrim, Korea

Traffic inched down the Coastal Road much to Jonny’s frustration. He had told the others that he would be back once he had reported in with Parker, but that had taken far longer than he had expected. The Chinese Airforce had done a credible job so far of keeping the Korean and German fighter/bombers at bay, but the Generals were taking no chances. That was why most movement of men and supplies was taking place at night. Jonny had found himself caught up in that.

“They were Hellbent on holding the ridge because they were buying time” Jonny had told Parker when they had talked. Jonny had sought out Parker to try to get a wider perspective on what was happening, and it seemed to be confirming his suspicions about where this misbegotten war was going. Today had been another day of observing the Chinese smashing their head into a wall, just the wall now included far more barbed wire, concrete, artillery and landmines, lots and lots of the cursed things

Parker had said that the events that Jonny had observed were part of a pattern that had been repeating itself across the Northern part of the Korean Peninsula. The Chinese Army bulling across the first geographic barriers and encountering a series of holding actions. Then hitting a heavily fortified defensive line and being stopped cold. To set up and man such a line must have taken time, so the holding actions must have been taken by what must have been Regular Army units to give the Reserves that time.

Here on the Coastal Road, the Chinese Army had the greatest initial success and then had found itself fighting the German Marines. Jonny found them strange. They billed themselves as the worst soldiers in the world, reveling in fact that almost all of them had been thrown out of the German Army first and sent to the Marines. Yet they had fought tenaciously to hold onto a piece of ground thousands of miles from home. After they had retreated from that ridge, Jonny had seen a written on a wall words translated roughly to, “The ground under our boots is always German soil” that seemed to explain a great deal. He had sent photographs of that back to the Embassy in Beijing. It was the sort of thing that the Analysts in Langley tried to find the deeper meaning in, beyond the painfully obvious.

Off to his right, Jonny saw one of the rocket batteries fire off an anti-shipping missile. On most nights Destroyers based near Seoul would cruise up the coast and shell the Coastal Road and then try to escape before the missile batteries got a lock on them. Jonny figured that it was more of the same as he lit a cigarette. A minute later, there was a flash on the horizon. Another Destroyer just went into the drink, Jonny thought to himself. Then came several more flashes of light and the missile battery went up in a column of flame. He was still trying the process what he had just seen when there was great concussion and Jonny’s jeep was flipped onto its side with him in it. Rolling into the ditch, Jonny realized that he had burnt his lips on the cigarette that had been in his mouth. There came another wave of shells exploding, but these ones burst in air and there was loud buzzing noise, like a million angry bees. Laying in the ditch on the side of the road, Jonny looked up and saw what looked like a man nailed to the side of one of the trucks.

Two thoughts occurred to him at the same time Battleship guns and fléchettes. Only the Krauts would be murderous enough to combine those two things. Jonny also knew that he needed to get out of here before they followed it up with…

The whole world seemed to shatter as the road was bracketed with high explosive shells. Jonny’s mind raced as he tried to remember something, anything, that anyone might have told him about situations like this. The only thing that came to mind was his Drill Instructor at Fort Lewis talking at him along with the other newly minted Privates, declaring that if they were ever really fucked to try not to piss themselves in the end. It wasn’t a comforting thought because it was already too late.


Tegel, Berlin

Meetings in the Hanger were normally boisterous, today’s meeting was very different. A pin drop could be heard after the news was announced that their fast attack wing, SKG 18 was getting sent to Korea.

The truth was that they were all University Students who had been encouraged to pretend that they were Pilots. Now as their Commanding Officer addressed them it was sinking in that it was no longer just for pretend, and it could very well get them killed. Over the previous months they had flown mock missions while flying the Arado Pfeil that had come in the form of dropping concrete bombs on targets, it was a lot of fun but mostly because no one was shooting back.

This had always been a possibility. The Arado Pfeil had been the result of the collaboration with Avro Canada. Just unlike the Arrow, which was a pure interceptor, Arado had seen a different potential. A key difference was that the Pfeil had been fitted with turbofan engines as well as six hardpoints under the wings and a seventh under the fuselage. Combined with the internal bomb bay and relatively large fuel capacity it made the Pfeil an excellent light bomber.

“This is good news for you Benny” One of the others whispered at him, “Your girlfriend is already there.”

Ben had made the mistake of mentioning that little detail a couple weeks earlier, without mentioning her name. Little did they know that if Kiki spotted him in Korea then she would happily kill him and save the Chinese the bother. He had another reason to avoid Kiki over there as well, the Gräfin. Somehow, she had learned of what had happened and had Ben pulled aside so that she could tell him that if he breathed a word about it to anyone then the bright future that he presently had would evaporate. After Katherine finished systematically destroying his life, he would be lucky if he would be allowed to change his name and become a street sweeper in some foreign country.

At the same time, Ben missed Kiki terribly. Especially after the surprise reunion and what had happened. She thought that she was plain, her face too thin and bespectacled. That her body was short on features that would have made her attractive as well. Ben thought that she was wrong about that. Kiki was smart, clever and bolder than she thought she was. Kiki had also been the first woman that he had ever seen naked in person. Sure, Kiki didn’t look like the bombshell models he had seen in photographs, but somehow that made her more real in his mind. She had also not laughed or gotten angry with him over some of the clumsy mistakes that he had made on the night that they had spent together. He just wished that Kiki could see herself as others saw her.
 

FBKampfer

Banned
Can't they have proximity or timed fuses in order to scatter their payload close to target?


Yes, though in that case you run into problems with dispersal due to blast pattern.

A good number are going to keyhole despite any fin stabilization, and there's a relatively safe zone directly in front of the shell where the primary fragmentation is going to be the thin shell casing, which doesn't fragment well and creates a low density pattern.

Additionally about a third of the flechettes (on the top third of the shell) are statistically unlikely to hit anything due to being launched into the air.



The US military has found, outside of close range direct fire from artillery or tank cannon, flechettes just aren't very effective.


Much better to just use a timed airburst.
 
I am surprised that the Chinese Air Force is preform well enough to keep China in the game, I am going to speculate without any evidence being provided that Clair Chennault stayed in China after the Pacific War and continued to advise Chiang until his OTL death in 1958.
The new aircraft that Germany is sending over sounds like they will be a game changer and will help drive back the Chinese Army.
If Jonny has been killed will that lead to Harriman to make him a martyr and use it to expand American participation?
 
...... I'm asking myself if Ben, due to his intelligence, may be selected ironically for Wild Weasel/Iron Hand missions..... After all, in this point, the one who knocks down the radar coverage of the opposition is likely to gain the upper hand in the sky to strike into the other country's land targets....
 
Part 94, Chapter 1481
Chapter One Thousand Four Hundred Eighty-One


30th March 1962

Incheon, Korea

Standing at the rail, Louis saw that crowds of people who watching the Battleships come into port. They had traveled in radio silence halfway around the world and had announced their arrival by pasting what was believed to be several Chinese Divisions and a few costal batteries. They had fired a few salvos of the experimental anti-personnel shells and it was yet to be seen just how effective the things were. Louis understood the concept of airburst. He also understood that the Navy liked redundancy, evidently the Admiral had as well. So, they had fired a few salvos of high explosive shells to make sure that whoever was ashore was really unhappy.

Not that it was an entirely one-sided affair. All the Battleships had taken hits from coastal artillery and missiles. Mostly it had done little more than scorch the paint, but the Rhineland had taken a troubling hit on the face of her Caesar Turret. It was still trying to be ascertained just how much damage the 42cm guns had taken. The SMS Baier had one of her radar arrays completely destroyed which was considerably easier to fix.

“Looks like we get to be heroes” Louis said.

“Perhaps” Udi replied.

“What do you mean? Perhaps?”

“Look for yourself” Udi said, and he pointed to a section of the pier that already had a ship moored to it. Louis recognized her, the SMS Prinzessin Marie. The vast white ship with the red cross painted on it was a hive of activity, helicopters circling, and ambulances lined up on the pier. There was a war going on and they had played only a relatively minor role in it so far.

As the SMS Brandenburg passed the hospital ship, Louis saw men sitting on the deck staring back at him. These were the lucky ones, those who weren’t injured badly enough to die if they were forced to wait. Even so, they looked like they had been run through a meat grinder. Then it occurred to Louis that these were men from the 3rd Marine Infantry, Udi’s Division even if he was currently on detached duty.


Cholsan, Korea

“The Chinese weren’t sure what to do with him, so they brought him here” Parker said.

The rest of the Squad was trying to wrap their heads around what had happened. For as long as the 1st SFG had been around Jonny had been there. Everyone knew that he was the toughest bastard in their outfit, larger than life and indestructible. Yet here Jonny was, just one of a still unknown number of men killed when the road had come under heavy shellfire. They were able to identify him with his dog tags, otherwise he would have been too much of a mess.

“It’s like God is watching and rolling the dice” Huck said, “Sooner or later, your luck runs out.”

“My mom would say that God had less to do with it than just taking too many chances” Ritchie said, “

No one disagreed with that. They all knew that Jonny had pushed his luck a thousand times and had always come out ahead until this. He had also been outspoken in his belief that their mission to China was a shitshow waiting to happen. Time would tell if he was correct or not. Either way, they all had a bad feeling that Jonny wouldn’t be the last one to be sent home in a box.


Mitte, Berlin

To Emil’s astonishment, BMW was happy with the results so far in the ongoing Motorcycle Grand Prix season. They had even discussed incorporating features from the racing motorcycle into the upcoming model year. If only the rest of Emil’s life could have similar examples of clear-cut success.

Maria and Zella were fighting again. This time it was the sort of battle that Emil knew all too well that as a father he would be on dangerous ground if he got involved. Still he didn’t like having his wife and daughter at odds with each other. It seemed that Maria had learned a few things about Zella’s personal life recently that she didn’t approve of.

When Emil had pointed out that while Maria had some good points, Zella was legally an adult and that Maria was overstepping her bounds by trying to assert control of her. He had earned himself a withering look from Maria. After that he had stopped trying to mediate between the two of them. That didn’t stop the two of them from complaining. Zella thought that Maria was controlling, old-fashioned and closeminded. It was an extremely ironic thing to believe about Maria. At the same time, Maria thought that Zella was irresponsible, selfish and immature. Emil didn’t disagree with Maria, but he knew that Zella would be forced to grow up eventually.

It all came to a head when Emil got a call to the phone line in his office. It seemed that Zella had landed in the hospital and she was afraid of Maria’s reaction when she learned what had happened. She had waited until she knew Maria had left for work and made the call. It had been when Emil asked the obvious question that Zella had gotten vague and evasive.

Minutes later, Emil had arrived at the hospital only to get intercepted by Oberstarzt Berg. He knew the Doctor worked closely with his brother and specialized in “Female issues” so it was hardly a surprise that she would be involved.

“The last thing Marcella needs right now is for you to be judgmental” Berg said, “She is going through an extremely hard time and there is already a great deal of self-recrimination involved. That is usually true in a case like this.”

“I get that” Emil replied, “How is Zella? Can you tell me?”

“She is young, and I expect a full recovery, eventually” Berg said, “Did she tell you what happened?”

“She was reluctant to say exactly, she was in the hospital because she started bleeding unexpectedly” Emil said, “She went out of her way to avoid her mother which says a great deal.”

“I’m not surprised” Berg said, “She gave me permission to speak for her in this matter when you got here. The word she couldn’t bring herself to use with you is miscarriage. As I said, try not to be judgmental and do not bring that up with her before she is ready.”

“I see” Emil said, knowing how Maria would react to this. Stepping into the hospital room, Emil saw Zella staring at the ceiling. Her eyes were puffy, so he knew that she had been crying. He could recall many times when she had been a child and had done the same thing when she had a particularly bad day. Emil sat down in the chair beside the bed. Back then and probably now as well, Zella would talk when she was ready to.
 
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Everyone knew that he was the toughest bastard in their outfit, larger than life and indestructible. Yet here Jonny was, just one of a still unknown number of men killed when the road had come under heavy shellfire. They were able to identify him with his dog tags, otherwise he would have been too much of a mess.
Well... Cya Jonny....
 
About the Flechette rounds for the BB's 406mm Guns. German armament industry was not a group of silo's with no one talking to each other. Expect every type of weapon that would be capable of using a round like this to have a type developed for it. Imagine the 50mm-76mm autoloader light AA, 128mm AT and heavy AA, 150 Howitzer/gun, 125/130mm DP on the ships. If they have developed a grenade launcher like a M79/M203 analogue or even larger morter rounds for 120mm and up for airburst. Human wave attack? Line up the AA guns that are autoloaders and fill the magazines with something like 4 and 1, 4 flechette to one HE round, and start shooting at the human wave attacks.
 
At the same time, Ben missed Kiki terribly. Especially after the surprise reunion and what had happened. She thought that she was plain, her face too thin and bespectacled. That her body was short on features that would have made her attractive as well. Ben thought that she was wrong about that. Kiki was smart, clever and bolder than she thought she was. Kiki had also been the first woman that he had ever seen naked in person. Sure, Kiki didn’t look like the bombshell models he had seen in photographs, but somehow that made her more real in his mind. She had also not laughed or gotten angry with him over some of the clumsy mistakes that he had made on the night that they had spent together. He just wished that Kiki could see herself as others saw her.

Yep, Ben is totally head over heels. Being in love like this could lead to his death. Having this much of an infatuation to impress her is not good, but its not bad either.
Two thoughts occurred to him at the same time Battleship guns and fléchettes. Only the Krauts would be murderous enough to combine those two things. Jonny also knew that he needed to get out of here before they followed it up with…

The whole world seemed to shatter as the road was bracketed with high explosive shells. Jonny’s mind raced as he tried to remember something, anything, that anyone might have told him about situations like this. The only thing that came to mind was his Drill Instructor at Fort Lewis talking at him along with the other newly minted Privates, declaring that if they were ever really fucked to try not to piss themselves in the end. It wasn’t a comforting thought because it was already too late.

The rest of the Squad was trying to wrap their heads around what had happened. For as long as the 1st SFG had been around Jonny had been there. Everyone knew that he was the toughest bastard in their outfit, larger than life and indestructible. Yet here Jonny was, just one of a still unknown number of men killed when the road had come under heavy shellfire. They were able to identify him with his dog tags, otherwise he would have been too much of a mess.

Not familiar with the exact term that much but am I guessing its like a shrapnel shell? Damn thats murderous though.

Oh, and Gloria is going to be rather pissed and upset.

Ben might be shot down.
I wonder who would be on the SAR mission.

Does he get shot down in no mans land, or behind enemy lines.

Because I could totally see Parker/Ritchie and his buddies also going to "rescue" ben and also meet Kiki again.


“I’m not surprised” Berg said, “She gave me permission to speak for her in this matter when you got here. The word she couldn’t bring herself to use with you is miscarriage. As I said, try not to be judgmental and do not bring that up with her before she is ready.”

Wow. Ok then. Zella definitely the wild child, but I am really not sure if I was expecting to see that.
 
“I’m not surprised” Berg said, “She gave me permission to speak for her in this matter when you got here. The word she couldn’t bring herself to use with you is miscarriage. As I said, try not to be judgmental and do not bring that up with her before she is ready.”
Emil didn’t disagree with Maria, but he knew that Zella would be forced to grow up eventually.

Not a pretty way for that to happen, but it will certainly have that effect.
 

FBKampfer

Banned
Farewell Johnny. May you find rest in the infinite.


Re: flechettes

Yes, even those launched skyward will hit ground eventually (yes with lethal force if of sufficient mass) however the problem is that they disperse over such a wide area, statistically you have something approaching a 1:15,000 chance of actually hitting a human sized target (assuming a 12 man squad in the target area, clearly as density increases, hits become more probable) with one of those particular flechettes.

Re: AA guns. Anything below appropriately 70mm doesn't have the shell volume to be useful. You either sacrifice projectile weigh and thus lethality, or number of projectiles, and thus hit probability, and thus lethality.
 
About the Flechette rounds for the BB's 406mm Guns. German armament industry was not a group of silo's with no one talking to each other. Expect every type of weapon that would be capable of using a round like this to have a type developed for it. Imagine the 50mm-76mm autoloader light AA, 128mm AT and heavy AA, 150 Howitzer/gun, 125/130mm DP on the ships. If they have developed a grenade launcher like a M79/M203 analogue or even larger morter rounds for 120mm and up for airburst. Human wave attack? Line up the AA guns that are autoloaders and fill the magazines with something like 4 and 1, 4 flechette to one HE round, and start shooting at the human wave attacks.
That's going to have soon a very deleterious effect on the Chinese Morale, potentially some desertion and executions for cowardice in front of the enemy to keep the order.

This may also cause some KMT units to possibly commit War Crimes in Korean Villages that hadn't time to be evacuated.. As they would be to the edge of rage as the Germans and Koreans are shredding them apart, then slip before they can attack back.....
 
I wonder how long it'll take the Americans to notice that the Koreans are very much not welcoming them as liberators? And how long it'll take this information to filter up the chain of command?

And how much deadwood has had a chance to accumulate in the chain of command?
 
There are probably so many Fredenhal's and devotees of McNair clogging the works that the answer to your first question is "Probably not until well after the US advisors have sustained casaulty rates rivaling the OTL 8th air force.
 
I wonder how long it'll take the Americans to notice that the Koreans are very much not welcoming them as liberators? And how long it'll take this information to filter up the chain of command?

And how much deadwood has had a chance to accumulate in the chain of command?


AIUI, the Chinese are attacking Koreans out of pure "Chinese Expansionism masked as pro-democracy liberation" and are supported by the United States who is the ultimate pro-democracy and anti-monarchist, because the Koreans are under the "German Monarchy" and their "German Colonialism" and thus must be liberated...

Even though it pretty much the Chinese expanding their own Colonialism, but the US does not see it that way...
 
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