Having flown paragliders all over the IOW, I think I can say that I know the landing terrain well! The available sites to get a glider into are limited and well known to the locals. The wind is more often than not strong enough to cause a German style parachute landings to be a recipe for injury. The Back of the Wight is easily isolated and over looked. Try a night landing Here with 190's technology and all I can say ids that IMVHO the home side will be doing rescue and clear up rather than fighting.
Operation Sea Lion (1974 Sandhurst Wargame)
- Thread starter Not James Stockdale
- Start date
Tricky? For Glenn's ubermensch who want to come to England to free der Englander from the cruel grip of Churchill and his gangster clique, those who would apparently flatten a town with their own civilians in it.
. Of course this will not be difficult. Herr Mannstein will simply wiggle his eyebrows and the Germans will wait two turns for their transport planes to be completed and then done!
#cleanheer #wehrforlife
#cleanheer #wehrforlife
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Well, most of the things you post are stupid because they are incredible, unlikely, implausible and unrealistic. But even when you post such hogwash, at least that has the extenuating circumstance that what other members post in reply, while being credible, likely, plausible and realistic, is still a hypothesis - alternate history means no certainty.
But in this case you managed to break even that limitation to stupidity. The Royal Navy did attack a French port in 1940. It's a historical fact. And guess what port the Royal Navy bombarded? The closest to the Isle of Wight.
Nor is the Royal Navy only that came at the Germans in their bases, remember? Bomber Command and Coastal Command, dedicating but a fraction of their efforts to the ports where the barge flotillas were being assembled, sank or destroyed 12% of the tonnage. Can you imagine the score if there actually is a mad operation going on, and those bomber forces apply all of their power to any beachhead in England and to the supply ports?
And that was mostly due to night bombing. Unescorted bombers, even if they were the best the British had, i.e. Blenheims, had a difficult time surviving over the French coast. Does that mean they were not sent in? Heck no. They faced heavy losses and they attacked the ports, preferably with the help of partial cloud cover. They did not push too hard, exactly because these attacks were too costly - but they did launch them, at a time when there was not actually one German soldier on England soil. Do you reckon they would not accept heavier casualties for attacking the resupply port of a beleaguered paratroop battalion cornered in a spot on the Isle of Wight?
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All that said, you also commit the usual stupid mistake of the Sealion delusionist. "Hey! German-occupied coastline! Coastal batteries! Air cover! Mines! The Royal Navy can't dare come close!". Think hard about this. Think long. Think goose and gander.
So you are asking for multiple PoDs all favoring one side? On these forums, there's an impolite word for that dream.
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Sorry if I waste no more time with the rest. I did like your idea about throwing hapless infantrymen with a parachute strapped to them out of Ju 52s; the Germans would surely have enough poor infantrymen, though not enough Ju 52 or, for that matter, parachutes. Or, once the ground is hit, enough operational poor infantrymen.
I also enjoyed the suggestion that the German parachute regiment go to the Isle of Wight in order to milk cows and tend to kitchen gardens.
Nice laughs for the idea that having the Luftwaffe slaughtered with this operation should in some way help later operations.
But all good things come to an end, and I won't be posting to this thread any more.
If any member wants to know why Knickebein would not work as a guidance system for a night-time paratroop operation (or bombing) on the Isle of Wight in July 1940, please start a serious thread about that issue and I will provide the information. Or just PM me.
Ladies and gentlemen, keep having fun.
I found this:
https://www.rijkswaterstaat.nl/apps...ord/Data_KaartLuchtoorlogWOII/AirOps40-41.pdf
A detailed report of British airoperations over the Netherlands from may 1940 to december 1941. It's partly in dutch and June 1940 is mostly unreadable. Still gives a detailed overview of the airoperations. In august/september/october 1940 it describes several photo recons were shipping is noted in harbours, to be subsequently attacked and often with subsequent photorecons as well.
If you browse through the document, you'll see the harbours were closely monitored and changes were noted. They were also repeatedly attacked.
https://www.rijkswaterstaat.nl/apps...ord/Data_KaartLuchtoorlogWOII/AirOps40-41.pdf
A detailed report of British airoperations over the Netherlands from may 1940 to december 1941. It's partly in dutch and June 1940 is mostly unreadable. Still gives a detailed overview of the airoperations. In august/september/october 1940 it describes several photo recons were shipping is noted in harbours, to be subsequently attacked and often with subsequent photorecons as well.
If you browse through the document, you'll see the harbours were closely monitored and changes were noted. They were also repeatedly attacked.
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Deleted member 94680
It's almost as if... and I know this is craaaazy, but stay with me... as if, I don't know, they were aware there was a risk of invasion and spotting flotillas being mustered was a early warning sign of it?
Nazis and inventing unnecessarily complicated shit that will then be mentioned by the History Channel whenever they're showing 'actual' history. Name a better duo.
I remember when the History channel was actually good and about history. Then it went into its 'Nazi Super weapons' phase, and last I heard its now the Duck Dynasty and Ancient Aliens channel
But the 'The Secret Nazi Plan to destroy England!'with stuff from this thread (wightlion, actual wights, ubermensch etc) would be right up Discovery's alley.There was an air raid on an airfield in Norway (Blenheims, from memory, flying out of the UK) where 11 out of 12 aircraft were lost. The survivor turned back with engine trouble over the North Sea and would have faced a Court Martial for cowardice for that except he was killed in another raid before they had a chance to arrange the trial.
If there's so much as a single living German on UK soil the RN and RAF will literally accept any casualties it takes to kill them. I have no idea why Glenn just can't accept this simple fact.
I think the critique is bang on - posters seem to react to the idea of Sealion way too much for the actual content of the subject matter. To me it doesn't even rise to the level of Tunisia in terms of Axis risk.
That depends on the outcome to the scenario. Let's say we're talking a successful airborne storming vs. IOW followed by Sealion two months later in September, and that IOW succeeds but Sealion fails in the assault phase due to RN interference. German casualties might be in the order of 75,000, (maybe half POW) British maybe 20,000.
RN losses are one old battleship sunk by U-boat, about 20 cruisers and destroyers sunk or heavily damaged, maybe fifty aux. warships sunk. KM losses are less than a dozen destroyers and torpedo boats sunk, a couple U-boats lost, something around five hundred various Sealion transports, (barges, tugs, minelayers, motor boats aux, etc.), sunk.
450 to 250 in the main phases, with the difference being mostly transport aircraft. Hundreds more on each side in the other weeks where its a SLOC battle.
Yes, given the comparatively (for WW2) trivial losses I just listed, in comparison to the possibility of ending the war, attempting Sealion was the correct idea.
Right, eventually the lost barges would have to be replaced with new construction in cases where they just can't simply be requisitioned from France (or wherever) as a war prize. But in the meantime, what I said about using other shipping and economizing.
Nobody said anything about using barges for an IOW op. Barges are too slow. It's a small seaborne operation that requires much faster transport than those - it has to get across the Channel from Cherbourg to IOW and unload completely during the night, and fast enough to stand a decent chance of evading RN warships, (which can be tracked by radar at Cherbourg).
I believe the lack of port facilities on the south coast of the IoW has already been commented on.
Garrison
Donor
Yes you said it, but as with so much else it demonstrates you lack of knowledge about the realities of Nazi Germany. In 1940 German transport infrastructure was already overstretched and overloaded. Years of prioritizing rearmament at the expense of domestic consumption and infrastructure meant there was no spare capacity lying around and they had already been economizing. Germany cannot absorb the loss of a significant part of its transport infrastructure. Also has been explained previously looting the conquered countries for transport infrastructure has consequences for the Reich. A significant part of the reason for the fall in French productivity was the shortage of transport capacity caused by the Germans confiscating so much rolling stock. Another round of confiscation of river and canal transport is just going to make matters worse. I know you would prefer to believe Germany can shrug off the effects of a failed Sealion, but in the real world you can't just turn up the industry slider for a couple of turns. Germany cannot afford to throw away manpower and resources on a military operation with a chance close enough to zero to make no difference.
It should also be pointed out that though Barbarossa ultimately failed to win the war it did help sustain the German war economy by providing a supply of food and labour from the Ukraine and other conquered areas, of course the aforementioned food was obtained largely by starving the local population.
So they somehow avoid the British noticing them assembling, or sailing, and they manage to cross in the dark, unload and get back to France before the RAF and RN, which is literally 20 miles away, can intervene. Oh and of course I assume they are basically abandoning the troops to live off the land and whatever supplies transport planes running the gauntlet of the RAF and finding some place to actually land can deliver? Because even if by some miracle the ships get through once they won't survive doing it twice.
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Right, there are different scenarios being discussed. Isle of Wight is about 3 or 4 years old - is that the definition of seat of the pants? Full on Sealion arising from a variation of the Battle of Britain, (no switch to London) is one scenario. Isle of Wight in July followed by Sealion in September is another scenario. Of the two theoreticals, the former was the historically possible situation, while latter was the more dangerous possibility.