So Sealion can prevent Germany from committing suicide in Russia. Point - Sealion.
The bottleneck in paratroop ops was in transport aircraft, not soldiers. A paratrooper is just some infantry guy with extra training on jumps and assembly.
Operation Sea Lion (1974 Sandhurst Wargame)
- Thread starter Not James Stockdale
- Start date
So Sealion can prevent Germany from committing suicide in Russia. Point - Sealion.
The bottleneck in paratroop ops was in transport aircraft, not soldiers. A paratrooper is just some infantry guy with extra training on jumps and assembly.
Two things. First, the British had no countermeasures in July 1940. Second, my understanding is that the countermeasures they evolved (Aspirin) wouldn't work when the target was on the south coast of England. The target had to be inland so that the jammers could be situated between the bomber and the transmitters.
How did you arrive at the conclusion that LW air losses in a 3 day Channel battle would be larger than in a 4 month air campaign?
In terms of shipping losses, if the RN approaches the French coast they're walking into minefields, massive air attacks, and coastal artillery, (which can hit and sink destroyers if under 10,000 yards).
No, when attacking coastal shipping, one means coastal shipping.
The assembly along the French side would have been behind defensive minefields and under the cover of airpower and coastal artillery. It's when the invasion moves north and leaves that protection behind that the RN can attack.
The LW would have to escort paratroopers. For the rest of it, none of it applies in the timeframe that the invasion is in the Channel.
I think the difficulties the RAF and RN would experience attempting to shut off lines of communication would be very large.
What about the guy waiting in the wings, Halifax? Not so much a last-ditcher there, right?
The RN can certainly do pattern bombardments of targets using air spotting - so could the IJN in all those threads where posters hotly argue at how useless the IJN was at fire support. But in 1940, not so much of the precision fire tank plinking that posters were posting pictures of, and, AFAIK, coordination between the RN and British army on shore fire support teams was lacking. For example, can anyone cite a single instance of any army unit on Isle of Wight did a fire direction exercise with RN warships in the summer of 1940? Was the RN even tasked with such a mission as fire support in 1940?
I don't think the British had a snowball's chance in Hell of holding IOW if this was airborne-seaborne assaulted in July 1940. I doubt you do either.
Where did you get the idea that civilian traffic on the Danube for countries other than Germany would be more important than military industrial production in Germany?
I didn't. As you frequently do you are distorting. Something that had got you run out of other discussion boards, and eventually is likely to do so here.
My guess would be that about the first time an "R" Class battleship drops 400 x 15" HE rounds on Ventor and killed 300 British civilians, that the rest of the British civilians on IOW are leaving for Portsmouth on anything that will float, and the Germans will not stop them. When they got to Portsmouth, they would ask why Churchill ordered such a bombardment? Cabinet crisis?
In terms of civilians burning their own equipment and supplies, that generally wasn't a thing civilians did - you're just inventing arguments to cover for the fact that you didn't think to realise that a rich and well stocked island of 100,000 people was not quite the Kakoda Trail.
The defenses of IOW in July 1940 were regimental or brigade in scale, and the were poor troops. An invasion would be of the scale of 30,000 in a day. There's no chance the defenders would hold. In terms of onshore, the Portsmouth garrison, (8,000) was available to send some reinforcements, but protecting Portsmouth was its primary task. The 4th division was covering the coast in this sector, but it was spread out over 30 miles - it might send a battalion or a regiment within 12 to 24 hours of the start of the attack. Meanwhile, the local garrison has surrendered and there are over 15,000 enemy troops on IOW. I don't think the British were likely to win the Battle of Isle of Wight in the landing phase. Could they win the SLOC phase? Maybe. But the landing phase? No.
Glenn:
1. In September, 1940 Austria (which the Danube runs through - hence "Die Blau Donau Waltz") is PART of Germany so Danube traffic serves that part of Germany. Likewise the Danube services parts of Czechoslovakia, and the industries of this "protectorate" are vital.
2. In September, 1940 Hungary and Romania, while friendly to Germany are NEUTRAL powers, as is Yugoslavia which is more on the fence. In any case, the Danube shipping is essential for these countries and a significant proportion of the barge traffic is on vessels owned/controlled by these countries. Are you suggesting that Germany seize these barges from neutral countries? This would piss them off and hurt their economies and they would resist this. Don't forget that Germany gets a huge percentage of oil from Romania, and it has to pass through Hungary to get to Germany (Polish rail lines can't handle much extra traffic. Some may come on barges owned by Romania up the Rhine.
3. Connections between the Danube and the main German river systems are limited in 1940, and some barges simply won't fit in those locks.
Bottom line is that while you MAY get some barges from the Danube system, the overwhelming majority of losses will need to be BUILT. To the extent that barge traffic on the Danube is reduced by this, industries in Austria and Czechoslovakia will be impacted. If you attempt to seize neutral shipping, especially after SEALION v1.0 flops, forget making allies/co-belligerents of these countries.
1. In September, 1940 Austria (which the Danube runs through - hence "Die Blau Donau Waltz") is PART of Germany so Danube traffic serves that part of Germany. Likewise the Danube services parts of Czechoslovakia, and the industries of this "protectorate" are vital.
2. In September, 1940 Hungary and Romania, while friendly to Germany are NEUTRAL powers, as is Yugoslavia which is more on the fence. In any case, the Danube shipping is essential for these countries and a significant proportion of the barge traffic is on vessels owned/controlled by these countries. Are you suggesting that Germany seize these barges from neutral countries? This would piss them off and hurt their economies and they would resist this. Don't forget that Germany gets a huge percentage of oil from Romania, and it has to pass through Hungary to get to Germany (Polish rail lines can't handle much extra traffic. Some may come on barges owned by Romania up the Rhine.
3. Connections between the Danube and the main German river systems are limited in 1940, and some barges simply won't fit in those locks.
Bottom line is that while you MAY get some barges from the Danube system, the overwhelming majority of losses will need to be BUILT. To the extent that barge traffic on the Danube is reduced by this, industries in Austria and Czechoslovakia will be impacted. If you attempt to seize neutral shipping, especially after SEALION v1.0 flops, forget making allies/co-belligerents of these countries.
Ok, where are the Germans getting all these paratroopers. Scraping together the Fallschrimjager units you might be able to get a single regiment ready for an immediate drop. 30,000 is as usual, you just talking out of your ass. Are the Germans dropping untrained infantry given a parachute and then thrown out of a plane? That's a damn good way to break a LOT of ankles.
So the distance from Calais to the isle of wight is about 138 miles. With those speedy barges going all out 6 knots which is about 7 mph, that's a good 19 hours of sailing, through the channel. It cant all be at night, the Brits will notice and attack.
From cherbourg it's a better 108 miles which still requires 15 or so hours of sailing. So it cant all be at night.
All of this of course is without form up times, not factoring in currents or other issues that may occur.
I fail to see how Wightlion is going to do anything but get what's left of the KM slaughtered along with the barge forge, leaving nothing for the "real" invasion. It's a completely idiotic plan given the disparity of naval forces available.
I mean I get it, Lionistas want to completely disregard the RN or the RAF. It's hard not to understand why, because if they acknowledge that the Germans weren't able to defeat, cripple, or drive away either force then their fantasies of Invasion UK are completely destroyed. But it is as best dishonest.
From cherbourg it's a better 108 miles which still requires 15 or so hours of sailing. So it cant all be at night.
All of this of course is without form up times, not factoring in currents or other issues that may occur.
I fail to see how Wightlion is going to do anything but get what's left of the KM slaughtered along with the barge forge, leaving nothing for the "real" invasion. It's a completely idiotic plan given the disparity of naval forces available.
I mean I get it, Lionistas want to completely disregard the RN or the RAF. It's hard not to understand why, because if they acknowledge that the Germans weren't able to defeat, cripple, or drive away either force then their fantasies of Invasion UK are completely destroyed. But it is as best dishonest.
The airbase network in northern France was probably not suitable in the period June 15-July 15 for the type of softening up required to remove the RN from Portsmouth prior to an assault on IOW. Nor could all bombing missions be made against one port target. But, from bases in Belgium and Germany, using radio navigational aids and attacking at night, it would require thousands of bombing sorties concentrated on the naval dockyards and piers for a matter of weeks. To assault IOW by airborne, Portsmouth had to be largely neutralised by LW attacks first. Since the Battle of France was over, the entire OOB of the Luftwaffe twin engine level bombing forces were available for such a mission, less the HE-111's that had to be used for airborne transport.
would be interesting to watch all those seaworthy river barges towed across from france(nearest point is cherbourg at 70 miles away)at 3 knots then try to land(on what beach?) on the south shore of the isle of wight.Hint:check the currents in and around the solent.the parrallel the shoreline and move at up to three knots.
That is very very unfair. You have used as proof that Sea Lion has a chance that the LW did better over the Channel than the RAF. You then say that the LW would be attacking RN ports. When I pointed out that ports have anti-aircraft and well are over land you ignore that fact.
You are unwilling to.answer questions when asked. Use variable plans. Ignore anything that points out problems in your ideas but you act like others are being offended by someone questioning their religious dogma.
So either answer or don't but here are some questions.
1. How many Heer soldiers will be sent on Sea Lion? Of those how many do you think will land in England? And how many British soldiers will be lost defending?
2. How much losses will the Kriegsmarine take? How many losses will the RN take?
3. How many losses will the LW take? How many will the RAF take.
Now if more Jerries than Tommies die or are captured is Sea Lion a good idea? Because if you need a straight flush to win at cards folding is a better plan.
Glenn, I have no desire to join in the pile-on, but I want to point something out.
Post #2918 You are saying:
Then by post 2928 you are:
I am aware, that you think you are talking about two different invasions. Full-on SeaLion vs. IOW SeaLion, but you really are talking about the same thing. There is a seat of the pants, flow state way that you construct an argument that feels like it has to do more with wrestling than academia.
Post #2918 You are saying:
Then by post 2928 you are:
I am aware, that you think you are talking about two different invasions. Full-on SeaLion vs. IOW SeaLion, but you really are talking about the same thing. There is a seat of the pants, flow state way that you construct an argument that feels like it has to do more with wrestling than academia.