If Portugal stays Spanush, then the Dutch might end up keeping more of the Portuguese colonies they conquered during this period IOTL.
Spain was already composed by two kingdoms (Castile and Aragon) mostly independent between them.Sounds right up my alley in nightmares.
I suspect that for this to happen, the Spanish would have to deal with the Portuguese a lot better. Violence ain't gonna cut it, chief.
Don't forget: Portugal and Spain didn't become one Kingdom. There were two kingdoms, Spain and Portugal.
A lot hinges on how the Habsburgs do in the Wars of Religion. A less involved presence, or a victory, could change things.
I think that in practice, Portugal would always keep being an autonomous kingdom with its own laws and such. If there's an eventual integrations, it will require lots of autonomies and promises to respect the rights of the Portuguese. Otherwise, revolt - and there will be a lot of people willing to arm any revoltees.
Still... one problem is that the Portuguese will be subject to English piracy and raiding as much as the Spanish were, whereas ITTL they became allies again after the union was undone. Pirates of the Atlantic, using the British islands in the Atlantic to attack shipping of brazilian gold?
From what I remember, it was pretty much the locals rising up to defeat the Dutch. Especially after Mauricio de Nassau left and the Dutch got more stringent with the people who had debts with them. There was thought in the court of the time, of conceding the Northeast to the Dutch, because the Portuguese owned the parts of Africa used to bring slaves, so they would profit anyway.
Everywhere else outside Brazil? Yeah they fucked, Spanish don't care.
Ok there was a huge difference between the union of Castile and Aragon comprising of Spain and the Iberian union which was two separate Cortes, separate laws, separate armies and navies plus separate laws and as mentioned before different culture and languageSpain was already composed by two kingdoms (Castile and Aragon) mostly independent between them.
Keeping Spain and Portugal united will likely require a different kind of union from which Portugal had no chance of exit (aka a survival of don Carlos line)
Aragon also had a separate Cortes at this time, and has 2 to 3 languages in the Kingdom alone, not to mention Naples, Sardinia, and Sicily.Ok there was a huge difference between the union of Castile and Aragon comprising of Spain and the Iberian union which was two separate Cortes, separate laws, separate armies and navies plus separate laws and as mentioned before different culture and language
Ok there was a huge difference between the union of Castile and Aragon comprising of Spain and the Iberian union which was two separate Cortes, separate laws, separate armies and navies plus separate laws and as mentioned before different culture and language
Exactly. If I remember well the true union of Spain will happen only under the Bourbon Kings, it under Philip II Castile and Aragon had each their own Cortes, rules, taxes and dominions (American colonies and other where under Castile, while Naples, Sicily and Sardinia were under the Crown of Aragon). Portugal was in a position similar to that of Aragon, maybe with a little more autonomy but still more or less the same. And with a survival of don Carlos’ line, Portugal would be a full part of Spain after the death of Philip II (as either don Carlos or his child will take the crown of Portugal after King Sebastian’s death)Aragon also had a separate Cortes at this time, and has 2 to 3 languages in the Kingdom alone, not to mention Naples, Sardinia, and Sicily.
The issue was that the Portuguese never considered themselves Spanish always Portuguese. The only similarity was we had the same King but the country was ruled from Lisbon by the king's representative. While those outside the country may claim similarities the Portuguese never accepted.Exactly. If I remember well the true union of Spain will happen only under the Bourbon Kings, it under Philip II Castile and Aragon had each their own Cortes, rules, taxes and dominions (American colonies and other where under Castile, while Naples, Sicily and Sardinia were under the Crown of Aragon). Portugal was in a position similar to that of Aragon, maybe with a little more autonomy but still more or less the same. And with a survival of don Carlos’ line, Portugal would be a full part of Spain after the death of Philip II (as either don Carlos or his child will take the crown of Portugal after King Sebastian’s death)
The issue was that the Portuguese never considered themselves Spanish always Portuguese. The only similarity was we had the same King but the country was ruled from Lisbon by the king's representative. While those outside the country may claim similarities the Portuguese never accepted.
That might of been outside view but unfortunately not the Portuguese and we don’t know how to explain to those outside the country. For the Portuguese Spain was everything east of Portugal not the idea of Iberia.Well, they were feeling as spanish as anyone else before Spain became some politicial entity, because at the time Spain was just Iberia. You'd need this idea of Spain = Iberia to remain, and I don't know how to do it ...
The other thing is that the Iberian union by 1620 had lost its support in Portugal. For Portugal received no benefit from it and had been subject to increased wars and attacks because of it.That might of been outside view but unfortunately not the Portuguese and we don’t know how to explain to those outside the country. For the Portuguese Spain was everything east of Portugal not the idea of Iberia.
That might of been outside view but unfortunately not the Portuguese and we don’t know how to explain to those outside the country. For the Portuguese Spain was everything east of Portugal not the idea of Iberia.
Oh I do not disagree, luckily for us Spain got hit with combination of both external and internal pressures and revolts. They valued Aragon more and were able to keep it while Portugal was able to break free.Ok, I trust you, then maybe this mistake was the main reason why Spain failed to keep Portugal : they thought this Union was self-evident when it was actually an historical "accident".
But other historical accidents have happened before : the UK exists too, and Scott-English union was far from self-evident too.
That is not true. When Isabel and Fernando started to use the term Spain to describe the union of the two crowns, the portuguese kings complained as they considered the word Spain as to be also theirs.The issue was that the Portuguese never considered themselves Spanish always Portuguese. The only similarity was we had the same King but the country was ruled from Lisbon by the king's representative. While those outside the country may claim similarities the Portuguese never accepted.
Therefore for the Iberian union to of continued a Spain not involved with the Habsburg and spend all $$ and resources there and instead concentrated on developing and expanding both Spanish and Iberian colonial empires
I don't think we have to take the hard Portugese nationalist view of history as unalterable fact. Nor is it productive for PODs like this to be instantly met with a barrage of attack. It's a legit POD, deal with it.
It's also not productive to dismiss, without arguments, other users posts as hard nationalism.I don't think we have to take the hard Portugese nationalist view of history as unalterable fact. Nor is it productive for PODs like this to be instantly met with a barrage of attack. It's a legit POD, deal with it.
I respect your opinions and I request that you respect ours. This has been discussed numerous times and not just me but other Portuguese members of this forum have stipulated this fact. If you do a little search you will find some very well articulated posts by other Portuguese who continually state from the Portuguese point of view the Union was not working and hatred of it wS growing after 1600 reaching a boiling point with the independence to 1640. There were no Portuguese fighting on the side of the Spanish as in 1580. The Spanish had squandered it all away with their endeavors elsewhere and neglect of the Portuguese empire needs which were begging for ships, resources and men.I don't think we have to take the hard Portugese nationalist view of history as unalterable fact. Nor is it productive for PODs like this to be instantly met with a barrage of attack. It's a legit POD, deal with it.