What it Spain keeps hold of Portugal?
- Thread starter Jimbo808
- Start date
Miguel Lanius
Banned
Sounds right up my alley in nightmares.
I suspect that for this to happen, the Spanish would have to deal with the Portuguese a lot better. Violence ain't gonna cut it, chief.
Don't forget: Portugal and Spain didn't become one Kingdom. There were two kingdoms, Spain and Portugal.
A lot hinges on how the Habsburgs do in the Wars of Religion. A less involved presence, or a victory, could change things.
I think that in practice, Portugal would always keep being an autonomous kingdom with its own laws and such. If there's an eventual integrations, it will require lots of autonomies and promises to respect the rights of the Portuguese. Otherwise, revolt - and there will be a lot of people willing to arm any revoltees.
Still... one problem is that the Portuguese will be subject to English piracy and raiding as much as the Spanish were, whereas ITTL they became allies again after the union was undone. Pirates of the Atlantic, using the British islands in the Atlantic to attack shipping of brazilian gold?
From what I remember, it was pretty much the locals rising up to defeat the Dutch. Especially after Mauricio de Nassau left and the Dutch got more stringent with the people who had debts with them. There was thought in the court of the time, of conceding the Northeast to the Dutch, because the Portuguese owned the parts of Africa used to bring slaves, so they would profit anyway.
Everywhere else outside Brazil? Yeah they fucked, Spanish don't care.
I suspect that for this to happen, the Spanish would have to deal with the Portuguese a lot better. Violence ain't gonna cut it, chief.
Don't forget: Portugal and Spain didn't become one Kingdom. There were two kingdoms, Spain and Portugal.
A lot hinges on how the Habsburgs do in the Wars of Religion. A less involved presence, or a victory, could change things.
I think that in practice, Portugal would always keep being an autonomous kingdom with its own laws and such. If there's an eventual integrations, it will require lots of autonomies and promises to respect the rights of the Portuguese. Otherwise, revolt - and there will be a lot of people willing to arm any revoltees.
Still... one problem is that the Portuguese will be subject to English piracy and raiding as much as the Spanish were, whereas ITTL they became allies again after the union was undone. Pirates of the Atlantic, using the British islands in the Atlantic to attack shipping of brazilian gold?
From what I remember, it was pretty much the locals rising up to defeat the Dutch. Especially after Mauricio de Nassau left and the Dutch got more stringent with the people who had debts with them. There was thought in the court of the time, of conceding the Northeast to the Dutch, because the Portuguese owned the parts of Africa used to bring slaves, so they would profit anyway.
Everywhere else outside Brazil? Yeah they fucked, Spanish don't care.
Spain was already composed by two kingdoms (Castile and Aragon) mostly independent between them.
Keeping Spain and Portugal united will likely require a different kind of union from which Portugal had no chance of exit (aka a survival of don Carlos line)
Lusitania
Donor
Ok there was a huge difference between the union of Castile and Aragon comprising of Spain and the Iberian union which was two separate Cortes, separate laws, separate armies and navies plus separate laws and as mentioned before different culture and language
Aragon also had a separate Cortes at this time, and has 2 to 3 languages in the Kingdom alone, not to mention Naples, Sardinia, and Sicily.
Exactly. If I remember well the true union of Spain will happen only under the Bourbon Kings, it under Philip II Castile and Aragon had each their own Cortes, rules, taxes and dominions (American colonies and other where under Castile, while Naples, Sicily and Sardinia were under the Crown of Aragon). Portugal was in a position similar to that of Aragon, maybe with a little more autonomy but still more or less the same. And with a survival of don Carlos’ line, Portugal would be a full part of Spain after the death of Philip II (as either don Carlos or his child will take the crown of Portugal after King Sebastian’s death)
Lusitania
Donor
The issue was that the Portuguese never considered themselves Spanish always Portuguese. The only similarity was we had the same King but the country was ruled from Lisbon by the king's representative. While those outside the country may claim similarities the Portuguese never accepted.
Well, they were feeling as spanish as anyone else before Spain became some politicial entity, because at the time Spain was just Iberia. You'd need this idea of Spain = Iberia to remain, and I don't know how to do it ...
Lusitania
Donor
That might of been outside view but unfortunately not the Portuguese and we don’t know how to explain to those outside the country. For the Portuguese Spain was everything east of Portugal not the idea of Iberia.
Lusitania
Donor
The other thing is that the Iberian union by 1620 had lost its support in Portugal. For Portugal received no benefit from it and had been subject to increased wars and attacks because of it.
Ok, I trust you, then maybe this mistake was the main reason why Spain failed to keep Portugal : they thought this Union was self-evident when it was actually an historical "accident".
But other historical accidents have happened before : the UK exists too, and Scott-English union was far from self-evident too.
Lusitania
Donor
Oh I do not disagree, luckily for us Spain got hit with combination of both external and internal pressures and revolts. They valued Aragon more and were able to keep it while Portugal was able to break free.
The major difference between Iberian Union and say United Kingdom wS thAt all external colonies were British and Britain defended them all where Portugal came into the union with a huge colonial empire that Spain squandered and by time we became independent had lost half of it and that more than anything made the Portuguese bitter towards the union
That is not true. When Isabel and Fernando started to use the term Spain to describe the union of the two crowns, the portuguese kings complained as they considered the word Spain as to be also theirs.
I just looked at these Spanish wars you told about, and maybe the Dutch war of independance ending sooner and Spain loosing all of Netherlands would make them look like less of a threat, thus making them a least priority for France and avoiding them a bunch of wars. Also, if they accept to let go all of Netherlands, they will probably be able to negociate to keep the Portuguese parts. On a sweet side note, France will be distracted from Spain if the Dutch are ruling over the Walloons.
Actually he has some valid points. We need to discuss how it happens, so we know how it looks like.
Dementor
Banned
It's also not productive to dismiss, without arguments, other users posts as hard nationalism.
Lusitania
Donor
I respect your opinions and I request that you respect ours. This has been discussed numerous times and not just me but other Portuguese members of this forum have stipulated this fact. If you do a little search you will find some very well articulated posts by other Portuguese who continually state from the Portuguese point of view the Union was not working and hatred of it wS growing after 1600 reaching a boiling point with the independence to 1640. There were no Portuguese fighting on the side of the Spanish as in 1580. The Spanish had squandered it all away with their endeavors elsewhere and neglect of the Portuguese empire needs which were begging for ships, resources and men.