Pop-culture in TL-191

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Alterwright

Alterwright

Historyman 14 said:
The Four Feathers, I also found interesting it being set Montana. (Remember, the British got decimated by Custer when they try to attack head on and for the rest of the war in Montana was the British cavalry and US Fifth Cavalry patrolled the border.)
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It wouldn't be that far-fetched of an idea I think. It could take on a different title and have a different plot. Theme of courages and cowardice can still be a main focus in the story, but told in a different way.

Side-note - Historically, this is a pretty interesting time for Charles Gordon to be here in North America. By this point in his career, he had already served in China and had already been Governor-General of Sudan. He retired in 1880 where he was offered numerous positions, but declined many of them. He was not a desk-man it seems and he preferred action. By 1881 he would have either been in England with family and friends, or in Mauritius overseeing construction of forts, of which he was described as "dying of boredom". A war in North America could have been a chance at action despite the thought of him allying with the Confederates - he was a staunch abolitionist and could have gone to Canada for personal reasons if it meant that the South would abolish slavery in exchange for victory.
 
Alterwright

Alterwright

Historyman 14 said:
The Boxer Rebellion I think would be the 'goldmine' of Confederate Warriors Abroad. Post Great War One would be the chaotic state of China.
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Oh believe me, I have a whole thing about the Boxer Rebellion I'd like to get into. Despite it all I have a dogged belief that the Confederates would in fact be sending a relief force to Peking during the rebellion, so Dixie's soldiers would be on the ground in an official capacity. Whether they would fight along side US soldiers and sailors is still up in the air for me, but I think it could also make for an interesting novel. Seemed like every great power at the time committed a force to the relief of Peking, this even included Austro-Hungarians and Italians too. And while the Confederate force would be small, Confederate civilians may be present in Peking, especially missionaries.

So, in terms of literature or media, we may get a different take on the movie "55 Days at Peking".

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^^^ --- So, for example, Charlton Heston here can potentially be playing a Confederate Marine officer as opposed to a US marine officer along side his British counterpart.
 

Tiro

I suspect that, by this point in Timeline-191, the American film industry would do their best to ignore the Confederate States - or at least marginalise their contribution to World History - as a sort of Damnatio Memoriae directed against the nation that wrought such havoc on the "Manifest Destiny" of the United States and then spawned one of the most malignant regimes imaginable.

My guess would be that the Confederate representative would be reduced to a walk-on and sidelined in favour of the byplay between the US & the UK (or at least their local representatives); the United States might make peace with the British, having walloped them thoroughly and ensured the dismemberment of their Empire, but the Reunited States are unlikely to revive the memory of the Confederate States where they can possibly avoid doing so.
 
pattontank12

pattontank12

I picture "Southern Scoundrel" would be a popular trope in Union and later German media. Often characterizing Confederate characters as ruthless opportunists and backstabbers hiding behind a thin veneer of classic southern charm and manners. Ranging everywhere from second rate con artists to sociopathic war criminals, often hailing from Charleston or New Orleans.
 
Historyman 14

Historyman 14

Tiro said:
I suspect that, by this point in Timeline-191, the American film industry would do their best to ignore the Confederate States - or at least marginalise their contribution to World History - as a sort of Damnatio Memoriae directed against the nation that wrought such havoc on the "Manifest Destiny" of the United States and then spawned one of the most malignant regimes imaginable.

My guess would be that the Confederate representative would be reduced to a walk-on and sidelined in favour of the byplay between the US & the UK (or at least their local representatives); the United States might make peace with the British, having walloped them thoroughly and ensured the dismemberment of their Empire, but the Reunited States are unlikely to revive the memory of the Confederate States where they can possibly avoid doing so.
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Me and @Joshua Ben Ari talked a little about this, and we took it an step further after the Second Great War.

I could see the US going even further. Remake Southern films, novels, etc, and destroy the original Confederate works. So that the new generations of Southron children grow up with only the US versions as the ones they know. Laughing at their parents for thinking that there was a Southern version of a movie/book/etc.

I could see some ex-Confederates fleeing for Brazil, South Africa, Rhodesia, or even Australia and keeping their original works safe from damnyankee censors. But with so few surviving, most of the pre-End Confederate works are gone and destroyed while the US recreates them to be proper "true American" works.
 
Historyman 14

Historyman 14

pattontank12 said:
I picture "Southern Scoundrel" would be a popular trope in Union and later German media. Often characterizing Confederate characters as ruthless opportunists and backstabbers hiding behind a thin veneer of classic southern charm and manners. Ranging everywhere from second rate con artists to sociopathic war criminals, often hailing from Charleston or New Orleans.
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You forgot Richmond, the very heart of the Confederacy.
 
Historyman 14

Historyman 14

@Alterwright, @Joshua Ben Ari, @Tiro.

I gave it some thought and I thought about another sub-genre of Confederate pop culture: Caribbean literature. It been mention outside of Haiti, the Caribbean is an Entente/Confederate/Mexican Lake up till after the First Great War, and so I have the idea of an stuff written and made about Cuba, the many islands there, and so on. (Which adds to the uniqueness of TL-191 Cuba. Maybe even an few Black Confederate Authors?) So an lot of Pirate Movies, an lot of mysterious island novels, Lost Civilizations in Central America, and that kind of thing.

Same for Sonora and Chihuahua and they unique place within the CSA and what they have to offer cultural of the Hispanic and Native cultures, wildlife and geography wonders.
 
Historyman 14

Historyman 14

Alterwright said:
Side-note - Historically, this is a pretty interesting time for Charles Gordon to be here in North America. By this point in his career, he had already served in China and had already been Governor-General of Sudan. He retired in 1880 where he was offered numerous positions, but declined many of them. He was not a desk-man it seems and he preferred action. By 1881 he would have either been in England with family and friends, or in Mauritius overseeing construction of forts, of which he was described as "dying of boredom". A war in North America could have been a chance at action despite the thought of him allying with the Confederates - he was a staunch abolitionist and could have gone to Canada for personal reasons if it meant that the South would abolish slavery in exchange for victory.
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I think the issue of the British Abolitionism and they attacks and suppression of slave trading would be very interesting to explore, and honesty sad. I mention William Wilberforce before, and the fact the Second Mexican War pushed into the Confederacy's camp even when before they was embarrassed with its ties to the Confederate States.
 
pattontank12

pattontank12

Historyman 14 said:
You forgot Richmond, the very heart of the Confederacy.
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And of course when they're not from the major cities of the Confederacy they're usually from poor and impoverished rural regions. Often being portrayed hiding a dark cunning and intelligence under the guise of a humble countryman, being the main reason they got of the squalor of their birth in the first place.
Historyman 14 said:
@Alterwright, @Joshua Ben Ari, @Tiro.

I gave it some thought and I thought about another sub-genre of Confederate pop culture: Caribbean literature. It been mention outside of Haiti, the Caribbean is an Entente/Confederate/Mexican Lake up till after the First Great War, and so I have the idea of an stuff written and made about Cuba, the many islands there, and so on. (Which adds to the uniqueness of TL-191 Cuba. Maybe even an few Black Confederate Authors?) So an lot of Pirate Movies, an lot of mysterious island novels, Lost Civilizations in Central America, and that kind of thing.

Same for Sonora and Chihuahua and they unique place within the CSA and what they have to offer cultural of the Hispanic and Native cultures, wildlife and geography wonders.
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(I gotta wonder if the Union and Confederates still used privateers to raid each other's shipping routs during the Second Mexican and First Great Wars.)

While up North in the Union Westerns would remain relatively popular with it having a resurgence following the First Great War and the vast new territories now opened up to American settlers.
 

Pelranius

Going back to the Indiana Jones matter, perhaps some of the villains could be Russians looking for Baba Yaga, Koschei, or the Sampo (despite the last being a Finnish thing)?
 
Allochronian

Allochronian

Pelranius said:
Going back to the Indiana Jones matter, perhaps some of the villains could be Russians looking for Baba Yaga, Koschei, or the Sampo (despite the last being a Finnish thing)?
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If we are going to involve Russians, I'd be interesting to see them interact with British and Americans in Russian America.
 
oshron

oshron

i could see these hypothetical Russian antagonists featuring in an equivalent film to Temple of Doom where, like the Thuggee, they're considered poor substitutes to the Confederates and are searching for the Sampo similarly to the Shiva Stones in Finland at the behest of Koschei, who fills in for Mola Ram (and maybe the deathless aspect of the character could be implemented in a way like Ra's al Ghul's immortality in Batman Begins where it's not really confirmed or denied if Koschei is actually immortal). the opening could also figure into the altered geopolitics where Indy is in Britain and has to make a deal with some Silvershirts (those were the British *fascists in TL-191, right?) parallel to the opening at Club Obi-Wan with Lao Che and then escape flight, intended to go to US-allied Germany, instead goes to Scandinavia and Indy, *Willie, and *Short Round end up in Finland that way. bonus points if there's a meta-cameo by Simo Hayha as the leader of the rescue party at the very end, paralleling Blumburtt's cavalry moment at the end of the OTL movie
 
Alterwright

Alterwright

Nathan Bernacki said:
What would happen to 1960s military sitcoms in this world? I'm talking about shows like Hogan's Heroes and MASH. Would they exist in this world with some differences in characters and settings?


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Oh, that's a good point. You know I hate to say it, but I think M.A.S.H. is almost butterflied away in this timeline. Given the themes and setting of MASH, that would be my opinion - it was very much a product of its time and although a great piece of media and entertainment in our world, I can't see how a show like MASH could exist in TL-191, at least in the way we know it to be --- its a show that takes place during the Korean War and was produced in the 70s around the tail-end of the Vietnam War. It would have to be a completely different show to take place in TL-191, with different tropes, characters, themes, the works. Heck, it might even be about a post-Second Great War conflict the US gets involved in, making it a more relevant show to the conflicts going on after 1944, not the Second Great War itself. Just about the only thing that would probably remain would be the title though. That's just my opinion of course.

A show like Hogan's Heroes, however, might be able to exist in TL-191. I say this because of the setting and you'd be able to portray the Second Great War in that show. I wouldn't go as far as to put the show in Andersonville though, I'd probably place the show in a fictional prison camp. And the writers would really have to work their butts off to make a script and show with enough humor to appeal a hardened American audience like in TL-191. It can work, but you'd really have to think how you make it funny, you know?
 

cortz#9

Alterwright said:
Oh, that's a good point. You know I hate to say it, but I think M.A.S.H. is almost butterflied away in this timeline. Given the themes and setting of MASH, that would be my opinion - it was very much a product of its time and although a great piece of media and entertainment in our world, I can't see how a show like MASH could exist in TL-191, at least in the way we know it to be --- its a show that takes place during the Korean War and was produced in the 70s around the tail-end of the Vietnam War. It would have to be a completely different show to take place in TL-191, with different tropes, characters, themes, the works. Heck, it might even be about a post-Second Great War conflict the US gets involved in, making it a more relevant show to the conflicts going on after 1944, not the Second Great War itself. Just about the only thing that would probably remain would be the title though. That's just my opinion of course.

A show like Hogan's Heroes, however, might be able to exist in TL-191. I say this because of the setting and you'd be able to portray the Second Great War in that show. I wouldn't go as far as to put the show in Andersonville though, I'd probably place the show in a fictional prison camp. And the writers would really have to work their butts off to make a script and show with enough humor to appeal a hardened American audience like in TL-191. It can work, but you'd really have to think how you make it funny, you know?
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So Sgt. Schultz would just be a "good ole boy"?
 
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