"Fight and be Right"

Nice to see Churchill triumph with the NU over Central Office. Ostensibly, that will mean a more democratic, mass-appeal, right-wing party, not unlike, ohhh...

If Gladstone wins a small majority, then that will cause havoc when Ireland pops up. (Probably) And if Lord Randolph takes over the party, then we could see him as PM in a very short time indeed.
 
"Gordon's alive?" Oh dearie me... :D:p

I know - a century early!

Hmm - Brian Blessed with mutton-chop whiskers... :D


Excellent work as usual, EdT: it really helps having these footnotes to let us know what rally happened, for those not too familiar with the period.
 
1. How far in advance you have to plan if you want to plan a bomb? IMHO as those plans were made some time after the POD the butterfly effect gives you more liberty in choosing the targets different than IOTL.
2. “Irish Terrorism; 1880-1940” - this title spells trouble. ;)

I personally had no problem with Ed using the same targets - just because there's a POD, those targets would still be what the Irish are looking for...I feel the minor changes (ones that went off fail, failures work, deaths reversed and the like) work well.

Although, one has to wonder, if William Lomasney has survived....what is to come!? I can't wait!!

Wonderful update as always Ed!:D As for the Tay Bridge....why bring up the real train wreck when we're gonna get a monumental metaphorical one soon!
 
No British Sudan, and i take it the situation in Ireland is going to keep escalating?

Well, although Gordon has survived Britain's position in the Sudan is otherwise pretty much the same as OTL. Doesn't mean it'll stay that way for long though- things have a habit of butterflying.


"Gordon's alive?" Oh dearie me... :D:p

Great update and like the others have said, I can see the train getting close to the gap in the bridge... I wonder if there'll be a WWI analogue or it'll just go straight into that War that was shown in the preview...

I couldn't resist! We shall see more of General Gordon, of course- he's too insane to waste at Khartoum IMO. As for a WW1 analogue, there won't be a precise one but I can promise at least one Great Power war over the course of the TL. Not saying who's involved or what the result is though!


1. How far in advance you have to plan if you want to plan a bomb? IMHO as those plans were made some time after the POD the butterfly effect gives you more liberty in choosing the targets different than IOTL.
2. “Irish Terrorism; 1880-1940” - this title spells trouble. ;)

I wanted to give a flavour of what happened OTL as well, so keeping the attacks similar made sense for me. Plus, I don't think things will have butteflied quite that much yet- you've got the same people with the same bombs trying to do the same thing, so there's likely to be a fair bit of convergence. As for the title of the book, you could have something of the same name written in OTL- the contents would be a bit different though!


Nice to see Churchill triumph with the NU over Central Office. Ostensibly, that will mean a more democratic, mass-appeal, right-wing party, not unlike, ohhh...

If Gladstone wins a small majority, then that will cause havoc when Ireland pops up. (Probably) And if Lord Randolph takes over the party, then we could see him as PM in a very short time indeed.

Yes it will, much to the discomfort of the grandees. As for the rest, that all sounds quite possible- there are some interesting times to come, that's for sure.


This is really fascinating. I had no idea Irish terrorism was that extensive in Britain itself...

It's not that well known- I get the impression it suits everyone concerned to forget about it. One of the purposes of this TL is to demonstrate how unpleasant some aspects of OTL's Britain were during the period; I have quite a few things in mind that sound quite dystopic until you realise they happened OTL as well.


Excellent work as usual, EdT: it really helps having these footnotes to let us know what rally happened, for those not too familiar with the period.

I'm quite conscious that it's not really a period that many people are familiar with- which is a pity in my view, as the late 19th century in Britain (and elsewhere for that matter) is fascinating but often overlooked. Certainly it's a golden age in Parliamentary terms, there really was a huge amount going on


Although, one has to wonder, if William Lomasney has survived....what is to come!? I can't wait!!

I'm afraid you'll just have to! Not for too long though...
 
Just had this thought now: Gorden survives - I wonder if he gets sent back to Africa, since you have Anglo-Egyptain Soudan on a preview map you posted...and even if he doesn't, I'd like to see why Equatoria exists...all in good time I supose, but still, you gave me a map to look at the the hamster is running as fast as he can on his wheel. :D
 
Just had this thought now: Gorden survives - I wonder if he gets sent back to Africa, since you have Anglo-Egyptain Soudan on a preview map you posted...and even if he doesn't, I'd like to see why Equatoria exists...all in good time I supose, but still, you gave me a map to look at the the hamster is running as fast as he can on his wheel. :D

There are several reasons why Equatoria exists as a seperate colony to the Sudan; the British considered the two regions as being quite different OTL, and even administered them individually, although they never formally partitioned the area. More significant however are events in the late 1880s and early 1890s in the region, which diverge considerably from OTL. The rescue of Gordon means that East and Central Africa pans out very differently indeed ITTL, and this has global implications.
 
There are several reasons why Equatoria exists as a seperate colony to the Sudan; the British considered the two regions as being quite different OTL, and even administered them individually, although they never formally partitioned the area. More significant however are events in the late 1880s and early 1890s in the region, which diverge considerably from OTL. The rescue of Gordon means that East and Central Africa pans out very differently indeed ITTL, and this has global implications.

I assume that the lack of British control of the Sudan at this point is why the French hold Cordofania... ;)

I'm still wandering what happens to get a German-British partitioning of Indochina and a British Djibouti... *Fashoda goes hot, maybe?
 

maverick

Banned
I'm afraid you'll just have to! Not for too long though...

But how long?

Anyhow...is the AH Irish conflict (it seems that the TL is building momentum for an intervention on Ireland under Churchill) gonna radically affect the Anglo-American relations, thus adding to the problematic relationship between the two nations that has resulted in the famous exclusion zone?
 
I assume that the lack of British control of the Sudan at this point is why the French hold Cordofania... ;)

I'm still wandering what happens to get a German-British partitioning of Indochina and a British Djibouti... *Fashoda goes hot, maybe?

Well, remember that map was from 1900 and we still have 15 eventful years to go. A lot can happen in that time... BTW Kordofan is British on the map, but Darfur is certainly under French control. At present, Chapter Eight should give some of the first clues as to why this is.


Sorry Ed - didn't mean to drag the discussion off course.

Nice chapter by the way!

Don't apologise, it was an interesting digression! I think we may have to disagree on that particular issue. I realise that late 19th Century British politics is more of a specialist field than 1940 but I should have some more interesting fodder for discussion by the end of the week...


But how long?

Anyhow...is the AH Irish conflict (it seems that the TL is building momentum for an intervention on Ireland under Churchill) gonna radically affect the Anglo-American relations, thus adding to the problematic relationship between the two nations that has resulted in the famous exclusion zone?

How long before the shit hits the fan? Put simply that'll be the end of Chapter Seven, so that's three and a bit weeks. As for Anglo-American relations I have telgraphed some nastiness in Ireland, and that'll certainly colour American attitudes towards the UK; however Randolph is married to a US citizen, and both he and Joseph Chamberlain remain staunch Americanophiles, at least as much as OTL's Winston. The combined effects may well cancel each other out. Or, something different will happen...
 
Well, remember that map was from 1900 and we still have 15 eventful years to go. A lot can happen in that time... BTW Kordofan is British on the map, but Darfur is certainly under French control. At present, Chapter Eight should give some of the first clues as to why this is.

Ah... That clears that up, then... :)
 
Chapter 4

“Continuous effort - not strength or intelligence - is the key to unlocking our potential.”


__________________________________________________


(Taken from ‘Lord Randolph Churchill’ by Timothy James, Picador 1978)

“Hearing that Parliament had been dissolved, Churchill cut short his expedition to India and rushed back to Britain[1]. He arrived to find himself in a position of massive popularity; Punch had published a series of cartoons urging his return, and it was generally agreed that the election campaign had been made duller by his absence. Churchill’s arrival was also regarded with some relief by his colleagues in the Party. Gladstone had spent the campaign crisscrossing the country in a self-conscious attempt to emulate his ‘Midlothian campaign’ of five years previously, and Stafford Northcote’s oratory was no match for that of the Prime Minister; indeed, now that Salisbury had withdrawn from public life only Balfour was capable of drawing the crowds.

Almost as soon as he had disembarked, Churchill threw himself into the campaign. His face was known throughout the country; the cartoonists made his shaggy moustache and large wing collars famous; people grinned and raised their hats when they recognised him. His speeches, repeated verbatim in the press, were read by an enormous audience, and as his reputation spread and increased, that of the unfortunate Northcote and his colleagues declined...”


(Taken from ‘Britain, from Churchill to Chamberlain’ by Peter Moorcroft, Star 1983)

“The Election of 1885 was a strange one; the absence of Randolph Churchill for much of the campaign and the supine leadership of Sir Stafford Northcote meant that at times, the struggle seemed to be more between different wings of the Liberal Party and the Irish Nationalists rather than the traditional Tory-Liberal contest of previous years. One of Gladstone’s ulterior motives for calling an election that spring was to paper over the cracks in policy that were beginning to appear in his party; not only over Ireland, where the need to renew the Coercion Bill passed in the wake of Earl Spencer’s murder was approaching, but also over local government and finance.

In this, he was not particularly successful. In late April, Joseph Chamberlain and Charles Dilke split from the Liberal leadership and began to campaign on a platform of Local Government reform in Ireland and on the mainland, combined with national councils for each constituent nation of the United Kingdom[2]. In a speech in Newcastle Chamberlain outlined his vision;

I cannot admit that five million Irishmen have any greater inherent right to govern themselves without regard to the rest of the United Kingdom then the five million inhabitants of London... I for my part would concede the greatest measure of local government to the Irish as I would concede to the English and the Scotch

Chamberlain’s call for ‘Home Rule all round’ angered the Nationalists, and in early May the rupture between the Irish and the Radicals was confirmed. Speaking in Dublin, Parnell declared for ‘national independence’ and urged Irish voters in Britain to support ‘Whig or Conservative candidates over the Radical’[3]. Churchill, by now back in the country, looked on with astonishment; when Lord Hartington expressed his own dismay at the Liberal infighting, he opportunistically made a speech in Sheffield inviting him to ‘come over and join us’. When Hartington asked who ‘us’ was, Churchill cheerfully replied ‘’us’ is me!’.

For Churchill, the augur of Conservative fortunes in the campaign came on the day before the polls, when the Tory leader in the Lords, Earl Cairns, died suddenly[4]. When he was told the news, Churchill rolled his eyes. ‘How can they tell?’ he asked...”


(Taken from “The Encyclopaedia of British Politics”, ed Fred Timms, Star 1976)

1885 ELECTION: General Election held in April 1885 after W E Gladstone’s Liberal Government opportunistically dissolved itself following the rescue of General Gordon from Khartoum. After a campaign where Liberal divisions over Ireland were exposed and the Conservatives barely contested the election at all, the result was a narrow Liberal victory; however the real winners were the Irish Nationalists, who gained many seats thanks to the extension of the franchise and redistribution of seats.

The results were as follows:

Liberal: 334 (-22)
Conservative: 233 (-4)
Irish Parliamentary: 85 (+22)
Independent Liberal: 9 (+9)
Crofters’ Party: 3 (+3)
Independent Conservative: 2 (+2)
Independent: 1 (+1)[5]


(Taken from ‘The Fall of the Liberal Party’ by Steven Dyson, Peterson 1964)

“At first glance, it appeared that Gladstone had won a famous victory. The Tories had been humiliated, and the Irish advance, while impressive, had been blunted before Parnell could hold the balance of power in the Commons[6]. However, beyond the raw figures a rather more worrying picture emerged. Joseph Chamberlain’s ‘unauthorised programme’ had proven surprisingly popular with the new electorate, and electoral success had considerably strengthened his position[7]. On the Conservative benches, the failure of Northcote had only strengthened the hand of Lord Randolph Churchill and his notion of ‘Tory Democracy’.

As Chamberlain had made it plain in his campaign that he would only enter a Liberal Government if it promised free schools, graduated taxation and compulsory acquisition of land by local authorities for allotments and smallholdings, Gladstone was left with a potential dilemma. If Chamberlain was left in the cold then his supporters could be relied upon to vote with the Government for the time being, but if they abstained or even voted against Government proposals then the Liberals would have to depend on Parnell’s Irish votes. Forced to decide on which was the better prospect, Gladstone resolved to negotiate with Chamberlain as his first choice. However, as early as June 1885 Gladstone made tentative contacts, through his son Herbert, with the elusive Parnell...”


(Taken from ‘Lord Randolph Churchill’ by Timothy James, Picador 1978)

“For Churchill, although the election was a disaster for the Conservatives, it was a personal triumph. ‘The Tories’, said The Times on the 24th April, ‘have to thank Mr Churchill not only for their few victories at the polls but also for the good parts of the organisation of the party’. After the election, the first priority for Churchill was the matter of the vacant leadership of the Lords, caused by the death of the Earl Cairns just before the poll. A series of names were put forward for the role; it was rumoured that Northcote favoured ennobling his ally R A Cross for the purpose, a suggestion that Churchill reacted to with horror, exclaiming that ‘Cross is even more Goaty than the Goat!’ In fact, to his surprise and amusement, Churchill’s mischievous suggestion that Northcote should be raised to the Peerage and lead the Party from the Lords was actually seriously considered for time[8]; however the appeal of escaping Churchill’s scornful asides in the Commons was outweighed by Northcote’s realisation that abandoning the Lower House would only give his rival a further powerbase, and so the plan was abandoned...

There followed a complex series of negotiations between Churchill, who adamantly resisted the prospect of Cross, and Northcote, who disliked Churchill’s proposal of the Earl of Cranbrook[9]. Eventually the Earl of Carnarvon was settled on as a compromise, but an element of farce entered proceedings when the Earl declined the honour, wisely realising that his growing convictions towards Irish Home Rule might prove embarrassing for the Party. With their compromise dashed the Duke of Richmond seemed the obvious alternative; his installation as Leader of the Lords was marked by very little enthusiasm from anyone but himself...”


(Taken from “The Encyclopaedia of British Politics”, ed Fred Timms, Star 1976)

PANJDEH INCIDENT: War scare between Britain and Russia in early summer 1885. On March 30th 1885 the Russian commander General Komarov successfully attacked and occupied Panjdeh in Afghanistan, breaking an agreement signed less than a month before by the British Government. The incident brought Britain and Russia to the brink of war; only the expert negotiation of Lord Dufferin, the Viceroy of India, enabled a settlement in which Russia kept Panjdeh itself but relinquished the furthest territories it had taken in its advance[10]...


(Taken from ‘The Fall of the Liberal Party’ by Steven Dyson, Peterson 1964)

“Chamberlain’s stay at Hawarden Castle was not a success. Neither man was particularly inclined to make concessions in their respective programmes; Chamberlain’s desire to be appointed Chancellor was utterly unacceptable to the Prime Minister, while his offer to Chamberlain of the Presidency of the Local Government Board was taken as a calculated insult[11].

Yet even as Chamberlain and Gladstone half-heartedly groped towards a deal, the Prime Minister was looking elsewhere for a majority. Parnell’s support would initially cost more than Chamberlain’s, it was true; however, if the stark choice was between governing on Parnell’s terms or that of the Radicals, Gladstone increasingly leaned towards the former. Faced with the prospect of temporarily depending on Irish votes, the Prime Minister shrewdly noted the consequences of a form of Home Rule so drastic as to eliminate the Irish representatives from Westminster. In Great Britain alone the Liberals still had a heavy majority; accepting Parnell’s price for continued Government in the short term could make Chamberlain irrelevant in the long term once Home Rule was enacted. The alternative was continued instability, or even a Tory settlement with the Irish, neither prospects that the Prime Minister found tempting.

As Chamberlain left Hawarden without the agreement he wanted, Gladstone made a pointed remark; ‘An instinct blindly oppresses me with the likelihood that Ireland may soon shoulder everything else aside.’ Realising what the Prime Minister was hinting at, Chamberlain promised to give his full support to a Home Rule scheme, but only if it ‘was decided on the basis of four bodies resembling the States Governments in the United States’. Gladstone simply smiled and replied that ‘That is, I presume, a speculation upon my views’...”


(Taken from ‘Britain, from Churchill to Chamberlain’ by Peter Moorcroft, Star 1983)

“Gladstone genuinely seems to have believed that Northcote and the Conservatives could be persuaded to embrace a separate Parliament in Dublin, or at least allow a Liberal Government to set one up without serious opposition. W E Forster once said that Gladstone ‘could convince most people most things, and himself of anything’, and the Prime Minister’s reasoning did have a certain amount of logic. Not only had the Tories passed Catholic Emancipation, the repeal of the Corn Laws and the Second Reform Act, but they had also shown their willingness to compromise the previous year over Reform and the Redistribution of seats. Gladstone was sure that Stafford Northcote, his former Private Secretary[12], would see reason and ensure the Tories fell into line with his new course; and if he did not, then he was certain that the ever-opportunistic Randolph Churchill would alight on Home Rule as a popular policy position and force Northcote to concede. Indeed, one of the few things that Gladstone had not counted on was Conservative unity on the issue; and combined with the divisions in his own Party this would be a recipe for division and struggle...”


(Taken from ‘The Fall of the Liberal Party’ by Steven Dyson, Peterson 1964)

“On the fourth column of page six of the Times on July 15th 1885, there appeared a short, 152 word letter from Gladstone’s son Herbert, dated July 4th and postmarked from Gladstone’s country seat, Hawarden Castle. ‘Nothing could induce me to countenance separation’ wrote Herbert, presumably on his father’s behalf, ‘but if five-sixths of the Irish people wish to have a Parliament in Dublin for the management of their own local affairs, I say, in the name of justice and wisdom, let them have it!’[13] These simple words changed the face of modern British politics, and were the spark for the once of Westminster’s greatest- and most enduring- political crises. With a simple stroke of the pen, the Prime Minister’s son had made the previously remote spectre of Home Rule a real possibility. Things would never be the same again.”


__________________________________________________

[1] OTL as ITTL, Churchill spent the first months of 1885 in India; his trip was rather similar ITTL, so it does not require that much description.

[2] OTL the ‘unauthorised programme’ was developed in the summer of 1885 and comprised of Chamberlain’s platform in the election that autumn. ITTL he has been more rushed in putting it together, but it still exists, albeit in a looser sense.

[3] This is still better for the Liberals then OTL, when Parnell advised Irish voters to vote Conservative.

[4] Cairns had poor health OTL and died of pneumonia on April 15th; ITTL the strains of campaigning take him off a few days earlier.

[5] These results are rather different from OTL; most notably the Liberals have done a lot better, and the Tories a lot worse. ITTL the Liberals can now theoretically rule without needing the votes of any other party, a major change. The reasons for the poor Tory performance are a combination of the absence of Salisbury for all the campaign, Churchill for part of it, and Northcote’s poor leadership, all of which mean that 1885 is a disaster for the Tories ITTL rather than a slight defeat.

[6] The main consequence of the 1885 Election OTL were to give Parnell this balance of power.

[7] This is also a major change from OTL, as there the 1885 election damaged Chamberlain’s standing.

[8] OTL, this is exactly what Lord Salisbury did to Northcote, who became the Earl of Iddesleigh and took the title ‘First Lord of the Treasury’ while Salisbury was Prime Minister.

[9] Cranbrook was not a fan of Northcote, having been passed over as Leader of the Commons in favour of him in 1876, when Disraeli gained his peerage.

[10] All of this occurs largely as OTL.

[11] Gladstone offered Chamberlain this post OTL, and he accepted; ITTL, Chamberlain’s stock is far higher thanks to the election and so he feels a similar offer is unacceptable.

[12] Northcote had been Gladstone’s PPS when the latter was at the Board of Trade in the 1840s during the Peel premiership.

[13] Herbert Gladstone used similar wording OTL, although in that case the letter was sent in December.
 
Dyson's choice of title makes it sound like something similar to OTL's split of the Whigs into the Liberal Dems and the Labours is going to happen.
 

maverick

Banned
Well, only you could make boring late 19th Century British Politics half-way interesting...:p

Quite a frightening omen at the end, but not as intriguing as this

Britain, from Churchill to Chamberlain’ by Peter Moorcroft, Star 1983)
 
Interesting as always Ed...though you have me thinking...

As Chamberlain left Hawarden without the agreement he wanted, Gladstone made a pointed remark; ‘An instinct blindly oppresses me with the likelihood that Ireland may soon shoulder everything else aside.’ Realising what the Prime Minister was hinting at, Chamberlain promised to give his full support to a Home Rule scheme, but only if it ‘was decided on the basis of four bodies resembling the States Governments in the United States’. Gladstone simply smiled and replied that ‘That is, I presume, a speculation upon my views’...”

“On the fourth column of page six of the Times on July 15th 1885, there appeared a short, 152 word letter from Gladstone’s son Herbert, dated July 4th and postmarked from Gladstone’s country seat, Hawarden Castle. ‘Nothing could induce me to countenance separation’ wrote Herbert, presumably on his father’s behalf, ‘but if five-sixths of the Irish people wish to have a Parliament in Dublin for the management of their own local affairs, I say, in the name of justice and wisdom, let them have it!’[13] These simple words changed the face of modern British politics, and were the spark for the once of Westminster’s greatest- and most enduring- political crises. With a simple stroke of the pen, the Prime Minister’s son had made the previously remote spectre of Home Rule a real possibility. Things would never be the same again.”

...Home Rule Crisis... I can't wait!!! This could be fun!:D
 
Dyson's choice of title makes it sound like something similar to OTL's split of the Whigs into the Liberal Dems and the Labours is going to happen.

Well, the Liberals certainly split. But it won't be quite the same as OTL, and the parties will eventually shake out quite differently..


Well, only you could make boring late 19th Century British Politics half-way interesting...:p

I try! To be honest I think the period is fascinating, and in Parliamentary terms a golden age- along the corridor to my office they have some wonderful Phil May sketches of the Commons Chamber and the Members' reading rooms etc from the period, and they are fantastically entertaining. The original of this is there, as is the famous Vanity Fair sketch of Churchill and the acompanying group sketch of the Fourth Party. It's difficult not to be inspired by the surroundings when you have that sort of thing- my old office had Alan Clark's sofa in it too :rolleyes:


...Home Rule Crisis... I can't wait!!! This could be fun!:D

You won't have to wait long, as the crisis is coming up next. It's a bit more fraught than OTL's version, I'll say that.
 
I'm just going to shamelessly bump this before I post the next part on Thursday/Friday- know it's a bit obscure at present but bear with me...
 
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