A Blunted Sickle - Thread II

avernite

pdf27 said:
Slowly. 18th Army was pretty much gone at this point, this is really the last remnants giving up. Remember it's late October, the weather is rotten and they've advanced a long way past their supply lines so nobody is moving very fast.
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Still, that's West-European no-supply and West-European not moving fast. Water line to Berlin is only 12 days walking, assuming a 10 hour walking day and Google Maps walking speed :)

I'd expect localized advances, at least until a natural stop-line is reached, to continue at a few km per day. Kinda like what you wrote for the 27th to occur all along the frontline, just usually not being so significant as the end of an army.
 

Mr Carrot

Army level officer corps, medical corps and arse end of the supply line that's not been chucked into the grinder isn't going to stand up to much more than a light mechanised feather.

Army on paper only! Stalingrad and other last stands had a huge proportion of the tooth wrapped up with the tail.
 

pdf27

18th Army is in a special position because it has been subject to the attentions of most of an army group with virtually no support for several weeks now so is falling apart at the seams. The other German forces are in a rather better position and are still able to offer effective resistance.
 

matlef

pdf27 said:
18th Army is in a special position because it has been subject to the attentions of most of an army group with virtually no support for several weeks now so is falling apart at the seams. The other German forces are in a rather better position and are still able to offer effective resistance.
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So with the 18th gone (that was the sole army holding the dutch i believe?) what's between Berlin and the Entente forces right now? If there is nothing then whatever the Germans scrounge up won't be ablo to stop a slow methodical advance. And there isn't really any reason for the Entente not to take small attacks if they have the supplies for it. Might that mean a sudden collapse of the German army happens during these winter offensives and catches the Entente by surprise? Leading to a quicker pace after they have sorted out their supplies.
 

pdf27

matlef said:
So with the 18th gone (that was the sole army holding the dutch i believe?) what's between Berlin and the Entente forces right now? If there is nothing then whatever the Germans scrounge up won't be ablo to stop a slow methodical advance. And there isn't really any reason for the Entente not to take small attacks if they have the supplies for it. Might that mean a sudden collapse of the German army happens during these winter offensives and catches the Entente by surprise? Leading to a quicker pace after they have sorted out their supplies.
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Nope, that's 15th (which isn't in a great position either). 18th was originally tasked with defending the approaches to the Ruhr, but Brooke had other ideas.

naraht said:
How different is the Quebec power discussions than OTL?
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Somewhat earlier, but the big difference is that in OTL it was Godbout who was pushing things from Quebec. Here, there is a significant push from London: MAUD will need at least 400 MW of additional power, and they don't trust the current privatised utilities to provide the extra capacity. As a result London (and hence Ottawa) are pushing for Quebec to take over the utilities and rapidly expand capacity - something Godbout wants to do anyway. Since Ottawa is lending them the money to do it and hinting that doing so will be regarded as war work (and thus stave off any idea of introducing conscription), Godbout has jumped on the proposal like a starving hyena on a juicy steak...
 

Ian_W

Banned
14th October 1941
Brooke launches an offensive over the drained water line with Five Armies. The overall operational plan is very simple – the armies will attack across the former water line and fan out into the Netherlands and northern Germany – but the execution is very complex due to the sheer concentration of forces and limited number of available roads.
Overall, the plan for Operation Dracula has:
The Dutch Army on the left flank, tasked with wheeling left towards the North Sea coast and clearing the German forces from as much of their territory as possible while protecting the left flank of the British First Army.
First Army is tasked with advancing across the North German Plain in the direction of Hannover. Their major objective is one of deception rather than conquest, in that they are to so far as possible simulate a much larger force and focus German attention on their “planned” movement deep into Germany.
Second, Third and Fourth armies constitute the centre of gravity for this offensive, and are to wheel slightly right down the east bank of the Rhine through Arnhem and onwards, in the direction of the Ruhr.
The availability of Rhine barges in the Netherlands means that much of the supply of fuel and ammunition will be water-borne. This will be a separate operation (Zeeleeuw) under the command of the Royal Netherlands Navy. Over 1,000 barges have been assembled for this operation, many of them being fitted with engines for the first time ever.
Phase 1 of the plan involves only the Dutch, First and Second Armies due to the sheer density of forces required, and has the objective of clearing the Veluwe before pausing for 48 hours to allow a reorganisation of supplies and the building of temporary roads across the former water line.
Phase 2 comes in two options, depending on Brooke’s understanding of the condition of the German armies facing him. The first (Operation Musketeer) is a relatively minor operation to clear the remaining German occupation forces out of the Netherlands and capture jumping-off points for an offensive into Germany in the spring. The second (Operation Varsity) is much more ambitious and calls for Second, Third and Fourth Armies to launch a rapid, mobile campaign with the objective of encircling and capturing the Ruhr.
***

14 October-27 October 1941

Operation Dracula continues, with assistance from Zeeleeuw and it's barges.

***

27th October 1941
Fighting in the Ruhr picks up slightly, with a small convoy of petrol barges having got through to Duisburg during the night. While still short of fuel and with next to no reserves, the shipment does permit Alexander's men to complete the destruction of Eighteenth Army, including the capture of Lindemann and his HQ.

***

Two weeks, and Lindemann's 18th Army ceased to exist.

This campaign is making the Hundred Days look like the Somme.
 

pdf27

All perfectly logical. You're launching an attack up the Rhine valley which needs lots of supplies shifting from a major port on the Rhine to the frontline. Unless you're a total nut, you're going to use barges to do a lot of the shifting - loads are available and they can carry a huge amount. It'll be a Dutch operation, and they will want an appropriate name. Sea Lions do live in rivers (although admittedly not the Rhine for a long time thanks to pollution levels) and Sea Lion is a lot fiercer sounding a name than "Bruinvis", although "Zeehond" would have been plausible. Still, if I can shoehorn Rene Artois into my timeline then a successful Operation Sea Lion will get in there too.
 

Decius00009

Banned
Not criticising in any way - this is my favourite timeline in this forum - but can't help but think that the focus has become somewhat ... Anglocentric. According to the timeline itself, the French still have the majority of men and equipment on the fighting front. Could be my paranoia as a self confessed Francophile, though.
 

pdf27

Decius00009 said:
Not criticising in any way - this is my favourite timeline in this forum - but can't help but think that the focus has become somewhat ... Anglocentric. According to the timeline itself, the French still have the majority of men and equipment on the fighting front. Could be my paranoia as a self confessed Francophile, though.
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There are two reasons for that:
  1. Firstly and most importantly, I am English which means it's significantly easier for me to write from an anglocentric viewpoint, i.e. covering what the UK is doing. There are some other countries involved, but there are limits to how much detail I can put in from elsewhere. That isn't going to change.
  2. The current set of operations are dominated by supplies. The previous fighting was mostly French - they've got the biggest ground forces and had the best supply lines - but now Amsterdam and Rotterdam are the best route to the schwerpunkt (the Ruhr) the focus will shift to the UK forces who being on the left flank are supplied from them. The French are currently struggling with major problems shifting supplies across Belgium - the rail network is destroyed so everything has to go by road. Give them until around Christmas and they'll be back doing most of the fighting again.
 

Ian_W

Banned
pdf27 said:
There are two reasons for that:
  1. Firstly and most importantly, I am English which means it's significantly easier for me to write from an anglocentric viewpoint, i.e. covering what the UK is doing. There are some other countries involved, but there are limits to how much detail I can put in from elsewhere. That isn't going to change.
  2. The current set of operations are dominated by supplies. The previous fighting was mostly French - they've got the biggest ground forces and had the best supply lines - but now Amsterdam and Rotterdam are the best route to the schwerpunkt (the Ruhr) the focus will shift to the UK forces who being on the left flank are supplied from them. The French are currently struggling with major problems shifting supplies across Belgium - the rail network is destroyed so everything has to go by road. Give them until around Christmas and they'll be back doing most of the fighting again.
Click to expand...

I don't care. You killed Roald Dahl, you **&%&*(.
 

naraht

pdf27 said:
There are two reasons for that:
  1. Firstly and most importantly, I am English which means it's significantly easier for me to write from an anglocentric viewpoint, i.e. covering what the UK is doing. There are some other countries involved, but there are limits to how much detail I can put in from elsewhere. That isn't going to change.
  2. The current set of operations are dominated by supplies. The previous fighting was mostly French - they've got the biggest ground forces and had the best supply lines - but now Amsterdam and Rotterdam are the best route to the schwerpunkt (the Ruhr) the focus will shift to the UK forces who being on the left flank are supplied from them. The French are currently struggling with major problems shifting supplies across Belgium - the rail network is destroyed so everything has to go by road. Give them until around Christmas and they'll be back doing most of the fighting again.
Click to expand...
I think there may be some additional related reasons, though perhaps less important.
1) The British Generals in the story are people who their fighting in OTL stretched out over more time, so getting information on how they did things is easier than those about a French General who was responsible for the Defenses on the south end of the Maginot line and never got into the OTL fighting.
2) The French are the Anvil, and the story of the fast moving hammer is more interesting.

Can the French keep fighting in winter at the south end of the front? Seems to me that that area is higher and southern mountains would be just as cold as northern plains?

(General response to everyone, not pdf27)
At this point if the French(/empire) picked up their toys and went home (A western miracle of Brandenberg?) the remainder of the Entente would still win the war, but it would take much longer. But while the French aren't advancing that fast now, they've got most of the German Military trying to keep them from the Ruhr which makes things much easier for the British. And I *seriously* doubt that the British would turn around and stab the French in the back by determining zones of control (if they are doing that) based on what the British have conquered vs. the French have. And I'm not sure things would be *that* different if the French had *complete* control of the military planning.
 

bm79

Just had a brainfart: a version of Jean-Jacques Goldman's "Je te donne" as the rallying cry for aid to those in the formerly occupied parts of France and Belgium. Not exactly that song, but the idea of a Frenchman and a Brit doing a duet. Band-Aid 1942? What a public relations coup amongst the neutrals. The war is young and people aren't quite so jaded yet as to not be able to appreciate such an endevour
 
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