WI: NACA Modified P-38

[viperjock]

Switching gears away from the A-10...

What did everyone think of the summarized description of the joint 12/15 AF raid on Lechfeld as described in this latest chapter?

Nice touch!
So the Lechfeld raid was to take out the ME-262s. The Germans threw everything they had at the USAAF to prevent that from happening.
I think it was realistic that the raid suffered from lack of better coordination between the Twelfth and Fifteenth Air Forces. It sounds like the raid was rushed and the results kept quiet. The Allies don’t want word of Nazi jets getting out. If word does get out then the official story will be “we took care of the threat”. The Luftwaffe doesn’t want the Allies to know how bad the raid may have hurt them.

 

[Draconis]

Just how successful was the Lechfeld raid?

 

[EverKing]

Just how successful was the Lechfeld raid?

The airstrip was knocked out for 2-3 weeks as the strip was repaired and the loss of about 1/2 the A/C at the field will delay operational introduction of the Me.262 by about two months. So instead of the first combat sorties occuring in July/August of 1944, the 262 will not fight until late September at the earliest.

 

[James Ricker]

Switching gears away from the A-10...

What did everyone think of the summarized description of the joint 12/15 AF raid on Lechfeld as described in this latest chapter?

Wait a minute here a P-38 optimized for ground attack. You'd have to armor the radiators but you would have a good payload and loitering time.

 

[EverKing]

Wait a minute here a P-38 optimized for ground attack. You'd have to armor the radiators but you would have a good payload and loitering time.

A posibility but for the sake of expediancy (and to balance production load) I think it is more likely Republic is given direction to build a designated ground-attack P-47, as we've previously discussed. This will leave the more limited numbers of P-38s free to pursue and hunt the enemy A/C, supported by a multitude of P-51s. Demand for the P-38 & F-5 ITTL, especially once the effect of the much improved P-38J/K is felt, may soon outstrip even the increased production provided by having a full third line at Bell AC. Adding the additional demand load of an A-xx model (without the Vultee A-41, I suppose an Attack version of the P-38 would end up sliding in at A-41 or A-42) may be too much.

 

[EverKing]

For those curious, as of right now (June 1944) in the TL the 8th AF fighter groups are as follows (I am including this outside the narrative because I do not intend to check in with 8AF Fighter Command or even Kelsey again until quite a bit later in the TL bu tI thought this would be good information nonetheless):

• 67 Combat Bombardment Wing (67 Fighter Wing) / 1 Bomb Division (B-17):
  • 20 FG (P-38 since Dec '43)
  • 352 FG (P-51 since Apr '44)
  • 356 FG (P-47 since Oct '43)
  • 359 FG (P-51 since Apr '44)
  • 364 FG (P-38 since Mar '44)
• 65 Combat Bombardment Wing (65 Fighter Wing) / 2 Bomb Division (B-24):
  • 4 FG (P-51 since Apr '44)
  • 56 FG (P-47 since Jan '43)
  • 355 FG (P-51 since Apr '44)
  • 361 FG (P-51 since May '44)
  • 479 FG (P-38 since May '44)
• 66 Combat Bombardment Wing (66 Fighter Wing) / 3 Bomb Division (B-17):
  • 55 FG (P-38 since Oct '43)
  • 78 FG (P-38 since Sep '43)
  • 339 FG (P-51 since May '44)
  • 353 FG (P-47 since Aug '43)
  • 357 FG (P-51 since Feb '44)

The plan now is to transition 356 and 353 FG to P-51s in July 1944 (as IOTL) but I am also considering moving the 56 FG to P-38s by the end of summer as well (IOTL they kept P-47s for the duration). That will balance each Wing with 3 FGs of Mustangs and 2 FGs of Lightnings. In the 9 AF they received the 370 FG with P-38s in Feb '44, followed by the 474 FG in Mar '44 and the 367 FG in Apr '44. I think that is enough for their needs. The other FGs in the 9th will transition to P-47s by Autumn '44 (if they haven't already) and all FGs in the 9th will re-organize as Fighter-Bomber Groups.

I haven't broken down all the other Fighter Groups by type just yet, but here are the other active P-38's in the world as of June '44...

• 5AF (PTO/SWPA)
  • 35 FG
  • 8 FG
  • 475 FG
    • (49 FG Sep '44)
• 7AF (Hawai'i)
  • 21 FG
• 11AF (Alaska)
  • 343 FG
• 12AF (MTO/Italy)
  • None (transferred to 15AF)
• 13AF (PTO/Solomans)
  • 347 FG
  • 18 FG
    • (318 FG Nov '44)
• 14AF (CBI)
  • 51 FG
  • 33 FG
• 15AF (MTO/Italy)
  • 1 FG
  • 14 FG
  • 82 FG

P-38 Groups by major Theatre (Europe & Mediterranean / Pacific, China, Burma, India, Alaska, & Hawai'i)
Europe: 11 (12 by Autumn of '44)
Pacific: 9 (11 by Autumn of '44)

 

[Draconis]

That's interesting to see the larger number of fighter groups equipped with the NACA P-38 in TTL.
The Pacific and CBI based fighter groups also gain advantages operating the ATL P-38. The Lightning also being the pilot's choice for long range and long range over water missions.

As an example the OTL 35th fighter group operated a mix of P-38s, P-39s, P-47s and P-51s through the war. Being equipped in TTL exclusively with NACA Lightnings from 1942 onward brings nothing but benefits as in a more capable airplane, consistent pilot familiarity and simplified logistics.

 

[Errolwi]

BTW, The Aviation Historian finishes a 3-part series on aerodynamics this quarter with a look at 'Compressibility & the P-38 Lightning'.

http://www.theaviationhistorian.com/shop-rest-of-world.htm#iss23

The issue also looks at another AH favourite, “A VERY LARGE AND AWKWARD BABY . . .” Continuing his investigation into the political aspects of some of the British post-war aviation industry’s most significant episodes, Prof Keith Hayward FRAeS turns his attention to the innovative but unwanted Fairey Rotodyne

 

[phx1138]

10 June 1944
27 FS, 1 FG, 306 BW, 15 AF
Foggia #3 (Salsola A/F), Foggia Airfield Complex, Italy

Yet again, a work of art. I feel like I could build a P-38 myself. And, for the record, the level of detail is a great guide for model builders who want to superdetail their kits.

You're making me wish for a POD where I could start fresh on the P-38 & fix the engineering-for-production & engineering-for-maintenance issues.

Also, these guys are my heroes. They're the ones who built the tanks & went lakes racing postwar. They built the lead sleds. They had the skill, & nerve, to cut up the brand-new Mercs & make them works of art. (Somebody once said to the effect prewar rodders were amateurs, postwar were professionals. This is where they learned.) Thx for the tribute.

(For the record, they also figured out how to stuff a 136ci Ford flatty into a Jeep.)

secured down by hundreds of small screws

That is crazy design engineering. Can you imagine how look it took to fasten those on the line?

recessed to produce a smooth surface

I've never been convinced of that...

small motor-bike engines and simple carriages built on holed, damaged, or otherwise worn out drop-tanks

Somebody's been paying attention...

two distributors

Really? The plugs weren't fired on the same one? (IIRC, some twin-plug straight sixes prewar used V12 distributors. I can't say as a fact the twin-plug 201s used V8s, but I'd bet on it.)

needed to disassemble a good portion of the nacelle and forward boom to gain sufficient access to the ductwork

That is fairly cracked design engineering, too. Especially on a 50 hour TBO.

“No, no, the ‘Mess.’ The mess hall. You know, the kitchens. Their ovens should be able to to hit three-fifty and hold it.”

That is a hot rodder talking. (Just don't let your wife, or your mom, catch you! {That's why used appliance stores exist...})

4. REDEZVEOUS

Nitpick alert: "rendezvous"... (If nobody else caught it... )

Lufberry’s

Nitpick alert 2: wouldn't it be a Lufberry? (I've seen it called a Lufberry Circle.)

5 FW-190—Lt. Hatch

In a single mission?

View attachment 383976
And, yes, that is an SCR-720...to scale

They should've done it that way. (Even a pair of .50s ought to work nicely at night.) On the space issue, wouldn't their be room for a belly pack, fitted a bit further back?

 

[Draconis]

Really? The plugs weren't fired on the same one? (IIRC, some twin-plug straight sixes prewar used V12 distributors. I can't say as a fact the twin-plug 201s used V8s, but I'd bet on it.)

Two completely separate ignition systems on all certified piston aircraft engines. They made them that way back then and they still build them that way nowadays too. As well as improving the power output it is also for safety reasons. If some failure knocks out one ignition system the engine will run just fine on the remaining one. With slightly reduced revs.

 

[phx1138]

Two completely separate ignition systems on all certified piston aircraft engines.

Now you mention it, I do recall reading that it Flying, more years ago than I'd like to admit Long enough it slipped my mind. (Yep, that's my excuse.)

 

[EverKing]

That is crazy design engineering.

It is. Originally I had excluded its mention because it just seemed wrong but the detail drawings I found the more it appeared that is the way it was. I am going to visit our "local" (two hours away) P-38L (actually a re-fitted F-5C) in a few weeks and I hope I can get a closer look at some of these details for confirmation.

I've never been convinced of that...

Still has to be better than protruding screw/bolt/rivets.

Somebody's been paying attention...

Really? The plugs weren't fired on the same one?

Yup, like @Draconis said.

That is fairly cracked design engineering, too.

Maybe "disassemble" was misleading. "Removing many skin panels" of the nacelles and foward booms would probably be a more accurate description.

Nitpick alert: "rendezvous"... (If nobody else caught it... )

Arg! Typo. I will fix it, thanks!

Nitpick alert 2: wouldn't it be a Lufberry?

The way the report is written was copied from the OTL report. I delibrately kept the oddities of style as they appeared.

In a single mission?

Even IOTL he got 5 confirmed and a probable on this mission.

They should've done it that way. (Even a pair of .50s ought to work nicely at night.) On the space issue, wouldn't their be room for a belly pack, fitted a bit further back?

Once I played around with it and realized just how perfectly they fit there it made wonder why they never did it IOTL. I suppose they figured that the external AN/APS-6 was good enough.

As for the belly pack idea I ran into issues with the nose gear being the way.

 

[Driftless]

Whitewalls? Pretty spiffy ride there....

 

[Draconis]

I do like that spiffy little car. There's a tiger in that drop tank.

 

[Butchpfd]

I do like that spiffy little car. There's a tiger in that drop tank.

Cute but a second generation Johnny come lately, and a sporty single seater, as compared to the runabout.

 

[phx1138]

Itis. Originally I had excluded its mention because it just seemed wrong but the detail drawings I found the more it appeared that is the way it was. I am going to visit our "local" (two hours away) P-38L (actually a re-fitted F-5C) in a few weeks and I hope I can get a closer look at some of these details for confirmation.

Huh. I will look forward to hearing about that.

Still has to be better than protruding screw/bolt/rivets.

I am not defending that. I was thinking adhesive, or welding. (Yes, it's possible to weld aluminum. Maybe not then, however...)

View attachment 384565

I should have known... However, that goes back to my remarks on the lakes racers: bigger tanks, looking not too different, would set records.

Maybe "disassemble" was misleading. "Removing many skin panels" of the nacelles and foward booms would probably be a more accurate description.

Still sounds cracked. Maybe I've underestimated the total length of piping involved...

Arg! Typo. I will fix it, thanks!

ti hpapens.

The way the report is written was copied from the OTL report. I delibrately kept the oddities of style as they appeared.

That works for me.

Even IOTL he got 5 confirmed and a probable on this mission.

That's decoration-worthy. And most assuredly mention-worthy.

Once I played around with it and realized just how perfectly they fit there it made wonder why they never did it IOTL. I suppose they figured that the external AN/APS-6 was good enough.

As for the belly pack idea I ran into issues with the nose gear being the way.

I suppose we'll never know for sure why they decided on an external pod. When you did it, did you find a lot of difficulty fitting the aerial? And do you suppose there were power supply problems? (I can't think of anything else that would hang it up.)

I confess I'm surprised the nosegear would be a problem, if the 20mm were offset either side of it. However, given you knew about the screws, I will take your word for it.

I do like that spiffy little car. There's a tiger in that drop tank.

Ouch.

 

[marathag]

(Yes, it's possible to weld aluminum. Maybe not then, however...)

Yep, Heliarc, or as it called today, TIG, but with Argon replacing Helium. Northrop started this in 1941

But they were gas welding Aluminum in WWI, but it were not as high strength as TIG, and required a very corrosive flux, that unless careful cleaning was don, would later really weaken the joint.

 

[phx1138]

Yep, Heliarc, or as it called today, TIG, but with Argon replacing Helium. Northrop started this in 1941

But they were gas welding Aluminum in WWI, but it were not as high strength as TIG, and required a very corrosive flux, that unless careful cleaning was don, would later really weaken the joint.

Thx.

It never ceases to surprise me how long some of this took to reach the broader hot rodders' community... Until the '80s (AFAIK, from reading the rodding mags), welding aluminum was virtually unheard of...

 

[marathag]

Thx.

It never ceases to surprise me how long some of this took to reach the broader hot rodders' community... Until the '80s (AFAIK, from reading the rodding mags), welding aluminum was virtually unheard of...

Well, until the '80s, there wasn't much aluminum in rodding where fabrication came it, like with all the billet stuff that stared in the '80s.
Before that, it was near all Al for wheels, valve covers and intakes.

But there were a number of guys in the '60s using heliarc for doing chromemoly tubing for rollcages and chassis, it was so much better, the controlled heat weakened the tubing much less

 

[phx1138]

Well, until the '80s, there wasn't much aluminum in rodding where fabrication came it, like with all the billet stuff that stared in the '80s.
Before that, it was near all Al for wheels, valve covers and intakes.

But there were a number of guys in the '60s using heliarc for doing chromemoly tubing for rollcages and chassis, it was so much better, the controlled heat weakened the tubing much less

That's true. My first encounter (AFAIR) was with welding a cracked aluminum head. The remark I recall was, that was really unusual; the writer in question had never heard of it being done.