Es Geloybte Aretz - a Germanwank

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Why does everyone assume they must match or pull ahead of Germany in chemical warfare for such a covert effort to be a success?

Germany will need every force multiplier it can obtain to stave off a Russia with a real industrial base, and the broad outlines of the next war which have been hinted at by Carlton show that it simply does not have them for most of it, not until it is able to visit St. Petersburg and Moscow with the fury of a small sun with the Russians in Prussia and Silesia.

I would suggest that that means that Russian efforts in this and other areas can only be considered a success.
I thought the hints were a bloody war which the Germans are winning when they decide '*** this, no more you godless easterners! Eat nukes!'

After all, early nukes need air superiority to get anywhere, and having that over Moscow seems remarkably unlikely if the Russians are in Silesia.
 
After all, early nukes need air superiority to get anywhere.
I guess some Gravity's Rainbow like delivery via rocket manned by a noble Herero prince could be conceived once the chemical warfare people have synthesized LSD.
 
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I thought the hints were a bloody war which the Germans are winning when they decide '*** this, no more you godless easterners! Eat nukes!'

After all, early nukes need air superiority to get anywhere, and having that over Moscow seems remarkably unlikely if the Russians are in Silesia.

I recall a few hints that they were losing until they pulled it off...

We know aviation to be somewhat retarded compared to its state IOTL. If the Russians and Germans are utilizing early-model monoplanes on the front while Germany has clandestinely developed a bomb and a high-altitude bomber project a la OTL’s B-29, they might be able to slip two in. This is especially true if they’ve pulled the Russians into a false sense of security by using lone bombers for long-range reconnaissance for weeks or months beforehand.
 
I recall a few hints that they were losing until they pulled it off...

We know aviation to be somewhat retarded compared to its state IOTL. If the Russians and Germans are utilizing early-model monoplanes on the front while Germany has clandestinely developed a bomb and a high-altitude bomber project a la OTL’s B-29, they might be able to slip two in. This is especially true if they’ve pulled the Russians into a false sense of security by using lone bombers for long-range reconnaissance for weeks or months beforehand.
Eh, how would they make a plane able to carry an A-bomb if they only have early-model monoplanes? A B-29 is a pretty advanced aircraft, and an equivalent that can still carry an A-bomb over a massive distance is not able to cut much in the way of advances (there were much simpler planes that could carry heavy loads or fly far, but not both).

Nevermind that nuking Moscow, while hurtful, is not something that turns 'Russia is winning' into 'Russia is defeated' - for the latter outcome you really need 'Russia is ever so slowly losing' as the starting point.
 

Deleted member 94708

Eh, how would they make a plane able to carry an A-bomb if they only have early-model monoplanes? A B-29 is a pretty advanced aircraft, and an equivalent that can still carry an A-bomb over a massive distance is not able to cut much in the way of advances (there were much simpler planes that could carry heavy loads or fly far, but not both).

Nevermind that nuking Moscow, while hurtful, is not something that turns 'Russia is winning' into 'Russia is defeated' - for the latter outcome you really need 'Russia is ever so slowly losing' as the starting point.

It was specifically mentioned that the one thing they did right in the air was strategic bombers.

Also, looking back, it seems that the Russians were outside Warsaw and still crawling forward slowly rather than in Germany proper when the Germans pulled the trigger on what would IOTL be Volgograd.

Also, I disagree; destroy Moscow and St. Petersburg in a single night and Russia’s “bloodbath with no victory in sight” becomes a “hopeless disaster we must escape from as quickly as possible”.
 
Also, I disagree; destroy Moscow and St. Petersburg in a single night and Russia’s “bloodbath with no victory in sight” becomes a “hopeless disaster we must escape from as quickly as possible”.
in russia literally all roads lead to moscow, and that wasn't just in soviet times and after, but already in czarist times. just look at a map how all roads and railways lead towards moscow.
yes, there are numerous cities in russia, but st peterburgs and moscow are embedded in the russian mind way more than any other city
 
Seriously, once the atom is split and the fission analysed, the consequences are clear and some concerned scientist may write a letter to the emperor.

Then it will take five years of massive engineering effort as both the U235 and PU239 paths must be pursued. Thus delivery systems will have to be developed in parallel.

Russia is not Japan, it is considerably bigger, but Germany can expect around one available bomb per month.

Does Germany have five years if hit with preemptive war? We would have to hope that still in peace time work on an industrial grade nuclear reactor is begun.
 

Deleted member 94708

Seriously, once the atom is split and the fission analysed, the consequences are clear and some concerned scientist may write a letter to the emperor.

Then it will take five years of massive engineering effort as both the U235 and PU239 paths must be pursued. Thus delivery systems will have to be developed in parallel.

Russia is not Japan, it is considerably bigger, but Germany can expect around one available bomb per month.

Does Germany have five years if hit with preemptive war? We would have to hope that still in peace time work on an industrial grade nuclear reactor is begun.

Authorial fiat has the war ending this way. Given the Germans’ commanding lead in every aspect of physics IOTL up to WWI and ITTL presumably until today, there is simply no reason they couldn’t put together a bomb in three years with a preexisting theoretical basis and some testbed reactors already built.

The biggest obstacle would, frankly, be getting that much electricity without crippling their industry, but again TTL’s interwar Germany will not be the basket case we are all familiar with.
 

altamiro

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Authorial fiat has the war ending this way. Given the Germans’ commanding lead in every aspect of physics IOTL up to WWI and ITTL presumably until today, there is simply no reason they couldn’t put together a bomb in three years with a preexisting theoretical basis and some testbed reactors already built.

The biggest obstacle would, frankly, be getting that much electricity without crippling their industry, but again TTL’s interwar Germany will not be the basket case we are all familiar with.

There is no specific mandatory reason to pursue both U and Pu route at the same time. A TL with more of basic, not immediately application oriented R&D goes on for longer - or where e.g. nuclear power generation is invented before the bomb - may not require the enormous amounts of energy needed to enrich U235 from 0,7 to 99%. You can run a heavy water moderated reactor with natural or slightly enriched natural uranium and if you time the chemical reprocessing just right you can get almost clean Pu239.
(And if you don't time it just right you get stuff tainted with Pu240 which means in best case a fizzle on initiation, or in worst case a fizzle on assembly which may produce some "interesting" storyline possibilities)
 
No way it is going to anyone German. They'll find some nice Italian fellow who studied beetles or something. Gas is, I assume, poitically topic.

There's no reason the Chemistry one shopuld be different, though the medicine/physiology one will certainly go to someone else. As an asidfe, the Nobel Prizes ITTL will not be regarded as highly as they are IOTL. Certainly prestigious awards, but without the glow of Sweden's neutrality to lend extra cachet, no more so than the Planck medal or the legion d'honneur.
 
There's no reason the Chemistry one shopuld be different, though the medicine/physiology one will certainly go to someone else. As an asidfe, the Nobel Prizes ITTL will not be regarded as highly as they are IOTL. Certainly prestigious awards, but without the glow of Sweden's neutrality to lend extra cachet, no more so than the Planck medal or the legion d'honneur.

Actually I'd value both Planck Medal and legion d'honneur HIGHER than the Nobel Prize - the latter is chosen internationally - so you have to avoid to insult someone ;)

The former both are national medals, so you can award them how it suits the issuing nation - and if a foreigner gets this award you can be (almost) sure he REALLY has done something special ;)
 
Actually I'd value both Planck Medal and legion d'honneur HIGHER than the Nobel Prize - the latter is chosen internationally - so you have to avoid to insult someone ;)

The former both are national medals, so you can award them how it suits the issuing nation - and if a foreigner gets this award you can be (almost) sure he REALLY has done something special ;)
and when you are REALLY special, you get all 3 of them
 
Berlin, 24 October 1908



A gentlemen’s club is an association of – well – gentlemen.” Hasso von Deweritz was nonplussed. It was obvious, wasn’t it? “Admissions need to apply certain standards.”


“Indeed, I see.” The terrifying presence of Field Marshal von der Goltz, was undiminished by his seeming to agree. There were greater men than von Deweritz in Berlin who would quake in their boots at an unannounced visit from the great man. His smiling affability hid steel, and the eyes behind the pince-nez were downright predatory. “I fully understand. It does say ‘Herrenclub’, after all.”


A servant brought in chilled champagne, allowing for a temporary respite in the conversation. The club’s president felt unsure where things were going. The field marshal smacked his lips in an appreciative, if undignified fashion and turned to General Mackensen seated to his left. “August, this is quite good. Better than what we get at the Wilhelmstrasse.”


Mackensen returned the smile and sipped. “Indeed. The Herrenclub is known for good taste in wine, horseflesh and tobacco, I have heard.”


Hasso von Deweritz nodded gratefully. “We try, Herr General. Our members have standards to uphold.”


“I was wondering about that.” Von der Goltz set down the glass and inspected the monogrammed napkin with a pretense of attention. “Colonel von Walcker must have fallen short in some regard.”


Mackensen was gratified to spot the glass in von Deweritz’s hand tremble momentarily.


“It is a policy of our association to only admit those of unquestioned nobility of birth. In the case of the colonel…” The defense was interrupted peremptorily by the cavalry general.


“Sir, how did you receive your title of nobility?”


“I… but … how does this relate….” Von Deweritz was visibly shaken. “I inherited it.”


“I see. And how did your ancestors come by it?” The trap was obvious, but nothing that could be said now would prevent it from closing around von Deweritz.


“Through valour and prowess in the emperor’s service. Herr General.”


Mackensen nodded, smiling. Von der Goltz interjected: “Then, sir, you now have the opportunity to admit a man who did precisely this himself. A man whose family tree does not yet resemble a potato plant.” That slur was current among bourgeois officers these days: Families whose best members were underground.


“I know von Walcker personally.” Mackensen pointed out. “He is a man of impeccable taste, significant personal wealth, and enough courage for an entire regimental staff, and then some. It would be a signial disappointment to mwe if the members of this club did not come to share this assessment.”


Von Deweritz smiled hopelessly, a desperate man: “Much as I regret, the modalities of adlection allow for member vetos, and I believe there is no law to prevent them.”


The two demi-gods nodded sagely. “Indeed, there is none.” Von der Goltz confirmed. “Just as there is none to prevent the officers of the guards regiments to choose not to patronise certain clubs based on the estimate of their commanding officers. I am merely voicing a personal opinion.”


Mackensen now fixed his unfortunate victim with a ferocious stare: “An opinion I share, as you should know.” he said. “To be honest, I believe a great deal is going to have to change in this country. A great deal indeed. But I assume we can trust the sound judgement of men of quality in this matter.” He rose. “Good day, Herr von Deweritz. I am sure we will hear only good things from your club in the future.”
 
Who is von Walcker again? I can't find anyone by that name via Search.

Also I love the fact that these old time Prussians are the ones driving progressivism.
 
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