WI: NACA Modified P-38

I don't think the P-38 was plagued by bad press. It was plagued by shortcomings resulting in bad results, which were duly reported.


Just Leo I think you already know all this but I'm posting this comment for the other readers to consider. This was a view point I read on an old WW2 pilots board a few years ago.

In the ATL with the P-38s shortcomings eliminated or greatly reduced then the good results should be duly reported. The OTL P-38 struggled in the bomber escort role with the 8th air force. I could make a case that the problems the early model P-38s had meant that the plane was used as a scapegoat to explain the heavy losses the 8th's bombers incurred in 1943 and early 1944.

The bomber mafia would not admit they blundered in promoting the doctrine that the bomber would always get through and be able to protect itself adequately. They also ignored the experience learned in other theatres and by other air forces.

Eventually they changed the doctrine and got more escorts to protect the bombers. But it was claimed that the reason for the high casualties at the beginning was because the P-38 wasn't a reliable escort fighter, not because of their flawed doctrine which didn't order adequate numbers of suitable escort fighters. That was bad press.

The P-38 was a flawed and unreliable fighter in 1943 for that high altitude job but it wouldn't have required much effort to institute the needed improvements in 1943 if the political effort was applied.
The plane had a huge potential for improvement as seen in the P-38L or P-38K. A big success in all other theatres it just needed those few more changes in the 1943 production to provide the 8th air force with the reliable and improved P-38 escort. Something like a P-38L appearing in numbers in 1943 would have been a good thing.
 
5 April 1943
27th FS, 1st FG, 5th BW, NASAF
Chateaudun-du-Rhumel Airfield, Algeria

Well told again. There's a feeling of authenticity in the details, like strain on the airframe & changing color of smoke. Bravo.
His few tracers flew past the Kraut’s canopy which could only mean that the rest of his machine guns shot high.
Did you know the tracer trajectory wasn't the same as for the hardball? It should be possible to judge if the .50s are visibly hitting him. The difference was one reason some aces (offhand I can't name anyone...) took out tracer entire, plus they wanted that extra few rounds to count.
em-ee one-oh-nines ... Enemy em-vees
A tiny quibble: wouldn't they use the phonetic alphabet? Or am I asking for too much sophistication in radio discipline? I'm thinking they'd be taught it, but maybe not trained to use it rigorously.
 
My understanding of tracer is that it simulates to a slight extent the performance of "base-bleed" ammo, and as such shoots a bit high, so the tracers he has flying past the 109's canopy should be indicative of accurate shooting... unless the guy was inverted...
 
My understanding of tracer is that it simulates to a slight extent the performance of "base-bleed" ammo, and as such shoots a bit high, so the tracers he has flying past the 109's canopy should be indicative of accurate shooting... unless the guy was inverted...
I had read the opposite, that the tracer tended to fly a bit low. Maybe I have it wrong though. There are a lot of little details and I am trying to as best I can but inevitably some things will be wrong. What I know I have right is that the 20mm dropped faster than the .50, so if the .50's are high the 20mm might be on which what MacKay relied on in this instance.
The difference was one reason some aces (offhand I can't name anyone...) took out tracer entire, plus they wanted that extra few rounds to count.
I read that Gabby Gabreski never used tracers. His biggest concern was in giving away his position when jumping the enemy. That was later in war, though, and it takes a little accumulated experience to get there...plus a more accurate compensating gunsight.
 
A tiny quibble: wouldn't they use the phonetic alphabet?
I missed this, on my last reply. I figured in the heat of the moment "em-ee" is easier than Mike Easy or Baker Fox (Bf.) especially when the important information is the 109 part of the message.
 
I had read the opposite, that the tracer tended to fly a bit low. Maybe I have it wrong though. There are a lot of little details and I am trying to as best I can but inevitably some things will be wrong. What I know I have right is that the 20mm dropped faster than the .50, so if the .50's are high the 20mm might be on which what MacKay relied on in this instance.

I read that Gabby Gabreski never used tracers. His biggest concern was in giving away his position when jumping the enemy. That was later in war, though, and it takes a little accumulated experience to get there...plus a more accurate compensating gunsight.
Not only were there individuals not using tracer, but some Sqdn COs tried hard to get their guys to shoot without the benefit of tracer. Think how scary that is, out of the blue (literally), your acft starts taking hits, no warning whatsoever...
 
I missed this, on my last reply. I figured in the heat of the moment "em-ee" is easier than Mike Easy or Baker Fox (Bf.) especially when the important information is the 109 part of the message.
You're not wrong, & as said, the discipline might not be total in any case. Once the shooting starts, I have no problem believing it goes out the window, but on first contact & ship sightings & such...

Aside: would they have identified merchantmen as "MVs" & not just "ships"? I'm thinking USN/MC aviators might distinguish, but AAF? Again, not a huge issue...

I don't mean to sound finicky. It's not like this detracted from enjoying, they're just small irritations.
 
Aside: would they have identified merchantmen as "MVs" & not just "ships"? I'm thinking USN/MC aviators might distinguish, but AAF? Again, not a huge issue...
HQ 321st BG War Diary said:
On April 5, 1943, mission number eighteen took off at 0615 with 18 planes on a sea search. Two planes returned early. Sixteen planes dropped 70 five-hundred pound bombs from 6,000 and 100 feet at 0935. One plane landed at Bone. The lower element claims 1 destroyer blown to pieces, 2 barges hit and bodies blown from it, 1 vessel smaller than a destroyer hit directly amidships and 1 small escort vessel strafed. The upper element claims 1 direct hit and 2 near misses on M/V, a direct hit amidships on 1 M/V, a direct hit on 1 M/V and several near misses. The crew of the tailplane saw 3 ships afire and 1 blow up. The bomb pattern covered the convoy excellently. One plane was lost. One landed at Bone with two pilots slightly wounded. From the air, 53 transport planes were observed heading south 77 miles north of Cape Bon. The estimates of the number of ships vary, but at least 3 large M/Vs headed the convoy with highly maneuverable small boats interspersed among them. These M/Vs were followed by smaller vessels, including barges, destroyers and about 6 Seibel Ferries at the rear. Submarines were also reported with the convoy. The flak was directed almost entirely against the lower element. It was light and intense and included some small arm fire. Flight leaders were Maj. Cook and Capt. Schwane.

There are many more references to "M/V" or "MV" as well, you can find the complete Diaries at: http://57thbombwing.com/321stBombGroupHistory.php

Also, in USAAF context "M/V" was "Military Vessel" or "Maritime Vessel" rather than "Merchant Vessel."
 
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As understand it, tracer bullets have different dynamics than plain ones, I suppose they have different density, and their burning skins certainly represent a different aerodynamic interaction than those of visually inert bullets. I don't know to what degree this problem could have been identified and compensated for and to what degree it is just inherent in the practice of having burning bullets. But for this reason, tracers did not take the same trajectories other bullets did, therefore the apparent stream of fire the tracers sketched out were actually quite misleading.

I suppose experienced gunners who had practiced a lot caught on to this eventually and then compensated. But indeed I've seen others claim that on the whole the tracers benefited the enemy being fired upon, both alerting them of the need to evade and of course pinpointing exactly where the attackers were firing from (the one part of the trajectory they'd share with ordinary bullets was of course the origin of both!)

I believe tracers were phased out early in the war as everyone came to realize the drawbacks outweighed the advantages.
 
I should just stop bugging you about this stuff. Clearly you know more about it than me.
No, please keep bringing up these little points. Each one, regardless of historical use, is fair to examine. Note how little I used E/A after you mentioned it felt odd to read that. I want to minimize anything that may feel disjointed to you, the reader, so you may just sit back and enjoy the ride. Each point is something for me to keep in mind as we move forward.
 
I did a little digging into the Tracer problem and discovered the standard AP "Ball" bullet weighed 706 grains (about 1/10 of a pound or a little over 1.5 oz), the API weighed between 647gr. and 662gr. while the Tracer weighed in at 680gr. This means, assuming the same propellant behind each, that the Tracer would fly over the AP round, but under the API round. So, for MacKay firing API and Tracers the description in the story should be accurate: high tracers means even higher API. Conversely, if he were loaded with AP, then high tracers would mean accurate strikes with the AP. If he loaded a mix of alternating AP and API with some tracers--as some pilots did--then they'd be going all over the place.
 

Driftless

Donor
Tracers: based on the different ballistics, did more experienced marksmen pilots dispense with tracers once they got a "feel" for how there shooting tracked in different situations? Deflection would be different than straight on shots, of course.
 
Just Leo I think you already know all this but I'm posting this comment for the other readers to consider. This was a view point I read on an old WW2 pilots board a few years ago.

In the ATL with the P-38s shortcomings eliminated or greatly reduced then the good results should be duly reported. The OTL P-38 struggled in the bomber escort role with the 8th air force. I could make a case that the problems the early model P-38s had meant that the plane was used as a scapegoat to explain the heavy losses the 8th's bombers incurred in 1943 and early 1944.

The bomber mafia would not admit they blundered in promoting the doctrine that the bomber would always get through and be able to protect itself adequately. They also ignored the experience learned in other theatres and by other air forces.

Eventually they changed the doctrine and got more escorts to protect the bombers. But it was claimed that the reason for the high casualties at the beginning was because the P-38 wasn't a reliable escort fighter, not because of their flawed doctrine which didn't order adequate numbers of suitable escort fighters. That was bad press.

The P-38 was a flawed and unreliable fighter in 1943 for that high altitude job but it wouldn't have required much effort to institute the needed improvements in 1943 if the political effort was applied.
The plane had a huge potential for improvement as seen in the P-38L or P-38K. A big success in all other theatres it just needed those few more changes in the 1943 production to provide the 8th air force with the reliable and improved P-38 escort. Something like a P-38L appearing in numbers in 1943 would have been a good thing.
I just wanted to add some thoughts to Draconis' great comment.
I think something else that killed the P-38 as the primary fighter was the lack of an advocate. In 1943 the air war in NW Europe was "the big show". The 8th Air Force was flying out of England along with the RAF bombing our primary enemy Nazi Germany. The Allies were also preparing the way for the invasion of Europe by the ssummer of 1944. I think there was the added pressure to turn the air war in the ETO around ASAP. The P-47 Thunderbolt had its aces with Gabreski and Johnson in the ETO. The P-38 did not produce a top scoring ace in that period. No one was going to bat for it. The P-51 was already in the pipeline so the AAF decided to throw in it's shiny new fighter at the problem. The P-47 also got sidelined by the P-51 but in 1943 it's showed it's value as far as the Army brass was concerned. So I think if some group commanders had championed the P-38 and had it develop a high kill ratio to compete with the P-47 in 1943 it would have got more respect.
 
5 April 1943
27th FS, 1st FG, 5th BW, NASAF
Chateaudun-du-Rhumel Airfield, Algeria


“Up and at’em, Lieutenants.” The Sergeant’s hooded light flashed over the sleeping face of Second Lieutenant John MacKay. “Mission today, breakfast oh-four-thirty, briefing at oh-five-fifteen.”

MacKay stirred, raising a hand to block the glaring light from his eyes and acknowledging the Sergeant so he would move on to the next cot. Sitting up, he rubbed the crust from the corners of eyes—ever present from the dust of the northern Algerian coast—and blinked to adjust to the dark tent. The other pilots were slowly doing the same, each going through whatever little routine had become habit in their time at Chateaudun-du-Rhumel since they transferred there in February.

2Lt. Sweet, groaned, “Did he say oh-four-thirty? What time is it?”

Samuel Sweet had come over to the 27th Fighter Group with MacKay as replacements a few weeks ago and neither of them of were quite used to the random wake ups at any hour on mission days. The night before Sweet, MacKay, and a few others had stayed up quietly throwing dice until midnight and now both would be paying for it.

“I don’t know. We need some light. Are the curtains down?” 2Lt. Donald Hilgert sounded more excited to be up than Sweet did. He had been with the unit since February, having been transferred down with his P-38 from the 78th Fighter Group and was a pretty good pilot with one Air Medal already to his name.

nisian border and word had come from that forward airbase that he was injured but not seriously. Ten of the other planes had been damaged, two seriously. In return the 27th was credited with 14 Ju.52/3, 3 Ju.87, 2 Bf.109, 1 Fw.190, and 1 Fw.189.

MacKay and Holden shared the kill on the ‘190, while individually Holden was credited with two Ju.52/3 and MacKay with two Ju.52/3 and the Fw.189. That left him just half-a-kill short of ace.

But there were more days to come in Operation Flax, and more opportunities for good hunting.

Everking, you have the 27th and 78th Fighter Squadrons referred to as Groups in first part of this section before the mission..
 
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No, please keep bringing up these little points. Each one, regardless of historical use, is fair to examine. Note how little I used E/A after you mentioned it felt odd to read that. I want to minimize anything that may feel disjointed to you, the reader, so you may just sit back and enjoy the ride. Each point is something for me to keep in mind as we move forward.
Thx. To be clear, tho, I didn't mean uncomfortable, just unfamiliar. I had no problem understanding & following you. If you've got the technical terms in hand, go ahead & use 'em. I would.:) My only gripe, if you're going to do that, is using the tech term & immediately "translating", so make a choice: use it, or don't, but don't do both. That irritates me no end.:mad: So far, I haven't caught you at that.:) Be advised. (If you're convinced it wouldn't be clear in context, you might sneak in an explanation as part of the narrative--but do be as sneaky as you can.;))

FYI, I favor the Heinlein style: no explanation; let what's happening explain what it means. If you're doing it that way, however, you need to bear in mind Harshaw's Law: if the reader fails to understand what your intent is, it's your fault, not his.:) (Robert A. was pretty uncompromising about that.:eek:)
 
Everking, Thank you for the shout out to "Shoot your Faded!"
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My Granddad was on that flight's ground crew.. couple of pics from my granddad's album.. I have many more from the 27th.. Pics from the Collection of Corporal Wm. "Bill" Waddell, https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...75864284.1073741878.1045995701&type=3&theater
 
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Everking, you have the 27th and 78th Fighter Squadrons referred to as Groups in first part of this section before the mission..
Thanks for catching that. 27th has been corrected to Squadron. 78th is not a mistake. In Feb 43 the 78 FG, assigned to the 8 AF had all of its P-38's, and some of its pilots, taken away and distributed among the 1st, 14th, and 82nd Fighter Groups in Algeria.
Please don't quote the entire chapter just to add one line.
Butchpfd, you may want to consider going back and editing the post to limit the quote length. It saves us the trouble of having to scroll past a duplicate long post. :)
Everking, Thank you for the shout out to "Shoot your Faded!"
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My Granddad was on that flight's ground crew
Again, thank you for this and I am amazed that of all the squadrons and all the planes I could have picked it ended up being one your Grandpa worked on!!
 
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FYI, I favor the Heinlein style: no explanation; let what's happening explain what it means. If you're doing it that way, however, you need to bear in mind Harshaw's Law: if the reader fails to understand what your intent is, it's your fault, not his.:) (Robert A. was pretty uncompromising about that.:eek:)[/QUOTE]


That's a good rule providing the reader isn't thick. :)
 
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