The Anglo/American - Nazi War

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The Reich WOULD have developed nukes if they had had the time.

Would they, with how Hitler set up atomic research? He didived the effort in nine separate departments, among them the German Post Office.

And did many defectors managed to leave New Europe? I see interesting spots in Calais, the Channel Islands and the Pyreneans - Switzerland might be pressured into returning "fleeing criminals" to the Reich and its puppets.
 

CalBear

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Would they, with how Hitler set up atomic research? He didived the effort in nine separate departments, among them the German Post Office.

And did many defectors managed to leave New Europe? I see interesting spots in Calais, the Channel Islands and the Pyreneans - Switzerland might be pressured into returning "fleeing criminals" to the Reich and its puppets.
After Berlin had the reality of nuclear weapons demonstrated as dramatically as was the case ATL, they would start (and, lets just go with, did start) an effort. Didn't really matter. The USSR, with decent, albeit not complete, knowledge of the process managed to do it in four years, no way the Reich manages it in any less time, even if someone hands them a set of blue prints. Even getting sufficient fissile material would take longer than the Reich had available.

There were refugees, not a huge number, most people were unwilling to see there families sent to a terrible death, but a few. Mostly via fishing boats, either hired or stolen to the UK (especially after the WAllies retook the Channel Islands as part of the effort to save the Soviet Union when things went sideways) or across the Med, along with some who managed to get over the land frontiers into Spain or Turkey (these folks had a strong chance of getting thrown back unless the managed to get to a WAllied embassy or consulate, or could prove family ties to the country).

There wasn't the sort of mass escape effort you see out of OTL's Syria, the KM and Luftwaffe watched for these sorts of efforts and tended to sink any such vessel and leave the passengers to the sea, it was similar to the attempts from Cuba back at the height of the Cold War, and with similar results.
 
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Telakasi

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I was quite aware of it. It is actually mentioned several times.

Did you also mention how the Allies countered the combination of ME-262 and R4M rockets which in this TL would have been far more numerous than OTL? Because if some 50 ME-262 which fired 2500 of these rockets destroyed some 400 Allied aircraft in 1.5 months, then hypothetically 1000 ME-262 with 300 000 fired R4M´s would have destroyed 48 000 Allied aircraft in the 9 month period from April to December 1945. In other words the Allied bomber offensive is defeated in 1945 and the Allies have no prospect of invading the continent. How does the war go on into 1946/47?
 
Did you also mention how the Allies countered the combination of ME-262 and R4M rockets which in this TL would have been far more numerous than OTL? Because if some 50 ME-262 which fired 2500 of these rockets destroyed some 400 Allied aircraft in 1.5 months, then hypothetically 1000 ME-262 with 300 000 fired R4M´s would have destroyed 48 000 Allied aircraft in the 9 month period from April to December 1945. In other words the Allied bomber offensive is defeated in 1945 and the Allies have no prospect of invading the continent. How does the war go on into 1946/47?

It's outright stated that it doesn't, at least not in the air - there's a bomber holiday after 1947ish and the war continues mainly at sea until the St Patrick's Day Raids, by which time the Wallies have amassed enough materiel - and better materiel - to resume hostilities. Even then it takes three years of vicious fighting before THORN BUSH can be implemented.

Nazi wunderwaffen is most emphatically Not A Thing - even more than OTL the Hunger Plan takes priority in Berlin's twisted minds.
 

Thothian

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Search THIS THREAD for any year after 1965

I couldn't figure out how to do that under the search function. I did search " this thread only" but didn't see the option for specific timeline years. But it's no problem. Just restricted it to your posts and kept going back through them. Especially enjoyed the end of the TL being a manned mission to Mars.

TTL could actually be a damn good series of movies.

First movie being a summary of pre-POD history + the POD and a few years after.

2nd being from the previous end through the chemical attack on the Allies.

3rd being from there to the end of the war.

4th set in the mid 21st century, summarizing the intervening years and then the Chinese go full apesh-t with their bio attack, and then the A4 response.
 

CalBear

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Did you also mention how the Allies countered the combination of ME-262 and R4M rockets which in this TL would have been far more numerous than OTL? Because if some 50 ME-262 which fired 2500 of these rockets destroyed some 400 Allied aircraft in 1.5 months, then hypothetically 1000 ME-262 with 300 000 fired R4M´s would have destroyed 48 000 Allied aircraft in the 9 month period from April to December 1945. In other words the Allied bomber offensive is defeated in 1945 and the Allies have no prospect of invading the continent. How does the war go on into 1946/47?
No, I didn't.

Mainly because you data is incorrect. As other have pointed out your source regarding the success of the weapon is incorrect. USAAF records (which have to account for every single aircraft, since someone signed for them) are clear on the point. On the day you use as your calculation source the WAllied did not fly the number of bombers you state, losses were not what you state, and your supposition is, frankly, unsupportable.

TOTAL USAAF 8th AF bomber losses in March of 1945 amounted to 124 aircraft, in April of 1945 bomber losses TOTALED 87 aircraft, in May of 1945, there were NO losses over Europe (mainly because the 8th AF was almost exclusively being used to drop food parcels in Holland) from all reasons, including mechanical failure, flak and fighters. In the last 2.5 MONTHS of the war 8th AF losses were 211 aircraft. The only way you can even reach 400 total losses is to include all escort fighter losses.

Your further supposition, namely that the WAllies would not adapt if necessary is also incorrect.

I would recommend that, before you continue to ask questions, you read the T/L. Or do not read it if you believe it is a simple Allied-wank.. If you wish to criticize it, based on the work itself, feel free. Please do not throw easily disproved figures out, it does nothing to improve my future work, generates needless acrimony, and will tend to make your future contributions suspect.
 
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CalBear

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I couldn't figure out how to do that under the search function. I did search " this thread only" but didn't see the option for specific timeline years. But it's no problem. Just restricted it to your posts and kept going back through them. Especially enjoyed the end of the TL being a manned mission to Mars.

TTL could actually be a damn good series of movies.

First movie being a summary of pre-POD history + the POD and a few years after.

2nd being from the previous end through the chemical attack on the Allies.

3rd being from there to the end of the war.

4th set in the mid 21st century, summarizing the intervening years and then the Chinese go full apesh-t with their bio attack, and then the A4 response.
Well, thank you. :D

If you happen to be closely related to the head of a major studio feel free to mention the T/L at Christmas. :p
 
I couldn't figure out how to do that under the search function. I did search " this thread only" but didn't see the option for specific timeline years. But it's no problem. Just restricted it to your posts and kept going back through them. Especially enjoyed the end of the TL being a manned mission to Mars.
He meant type a year after 1965 into the box where it says search. The forum can't search for specific years within the TL, just text.

Though that would be a cool feature.
 

Deleted member 96212

I couldn't figure out how to do that under the search function. I did search " this thread only" but didn't see the option for specific timeline years. But it's no problem. Just restricted it to your posts and kept going back through them. Especially enjoyed the end of the TL being a manned mission to Mars.

TTL could actually be a damn good series of movies.

First movie being a summary of pre-POD history + the POD and a few years after.

2nd being from the previous end through the chemical attack on the Allies.

3rd being from there to the end of the war.

4th set in the mid 21st century, summarizing the intervening years and then the Chinese go full apesh-t with their bio attack, and then the A4 response.

Maybe it could be like a Lord of the Rings type of movie series? I'm not sure. I'd see the movies either way.
 
Maybe it could be like a Lord of the Rings type of movie series? I'm not sure. I'd see the movies either way.

AANW would probably work most faithfully as a 1990s-History-Channel documentary, with fake veteran interviews and CGI'd archive footage. To make actual films, you'd need to write a personal-level story, but it would be hard to convey the sheer scale of 'WWIII against Hitler' that way.
 
AANW would probably work most faithfully as a 1990s-History-Channel documentary, with fake veteran interviews and CGI'd archive footage. To make actual films, you'd need to write a personal-level story, but it would be hard to convey the sheer scale of 'WWIII against Hitler' that way.

That would be exciting. I can see it now. It can start with footage of the 40th Anniversary Events around the world at the turn of the millennium. I suppose VE Day would not be an appropriate name for the end of the war in this reality due to the intensely diminished significance of the Pacific Theatre in a WWII that lasted two decades. Perhaps "Victory for Freedom Day" or VF Day would be appropriate. It will start with the ceremonies in the A4 nations first of course....

I am getting ahead of myself.

I wonder if Mutual Broadcasting System ever went into television or if RKO still exists as a film studio in this reality as of TTL 2016. It would be fun to see a futuristic (not by our standards) version of their logos appear at the start of TTL programs/films. I imagine that cable TV will also be more diversified and widespread by the TTL Turn of the Millennium. Due to longer boosts of investment in communications technology over the course of a longer WWII, I suspect cable TV may become big a decade earlier than OTL...

I am getting ahead of myself again. Just some ideas for anyone who knows any studio heads or ambitious screenwriters.
 

Telakasi

Banned
Mainly because you data is incorrect. As other have pointed out your source regarding the success of the weapon is incorrect. USAAF records (which have to account for every single aircraft, since someone signed for them) are clear on the point. On the day you use as your calculation source the WAllied did not fly the number of bombers you state, losses were not what you state, and your supposition is, frankly, unsupportable. TOTAL USAAF 8th AF bomber losses in March of 1945 amounted to 124 aircraft, in April of 1945 bomber losses TOTALED 87 aircraft, in May of 1945, there were NO losses over Europe (mainly because the 8th AF was almost exclusively being used to drop food parcels in Holland) from all reasons, including mechanical failure, flak and fighters. In the last 2.5 MONTHS of the war 8th AF losses were 211 aircraft. The only way you can even reach 400 total losses is to include all escort fighter losses.

You do realize that the stated 400 to 500 aircraft does include all American, British AND Soviet aircraft right? The Soviets alone lost 4 300 aircraft (in combat) from January to May. As for the British- Bomber Command alone lost 590 aircraft from January to April. So your supposition that the R4M rocket could not have destroyed as many aircraft as claimed by the few surviving reports is frankly unsupportable.


Your further supposition, namely that the WAllies would not adapt if necessary is also incorrect.
Adaptation takes time. If the Allies need just 6 months to install a countermeasure it would allready have been to late.

I would recommend that, before you continue to ask questions, you read the T/L. Or do not read it if you believe it is a simple Allied-wank.. If you wish to criticize it, based on the work itself, feel free. Please do not throw easily disproved figures out, it does nothing to improve my future work, generates needless acrimony, and will tend to make your future contributions suspect.

Dont worry - now that I know that you just handwave things away that represented an obstacle to Allied victory Im not really interested anymore. Seeing that in your TL 1955 Germany still fights with 1945 technology, while the 1955 Allies fight with 1960 technology I cant take it seriously anymore. I guess I expected something else because of all the hype - sorry to have bothered you.
 
Have found a couple of handy links. One is a German website on the R4M itself. The other is on the F-89, the Mighty Mouse rocket being a copy of the R4M.

There is one thing we can say that the R4M was excellent at hitting - the ground. :D
 

Telakasi

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There is one thing we can say that the R4M was excellent at hitting - the ground.

Either you desperately spread misinformation because you dont want to admit how wrong you were or you have no idea what the article you posted says:rolleyes:
From your own link: In einem Einsatz wurden ohne eigene Verluste innerhalb kürzester Zeit aus einem Verband von 425 „B-17 Fortress"-Bombern 25 Stück zerstört. In a single engagement a few Me 262 armed with the Rm4 rockets destroyed 25 out of 425 bombers without sustaining any losses.

The second article has no relevance to the topic at all. But anyway - thanks for posting another source that proves the effectiveness of the R4M.:D
 

CalBear

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You do realize that the stated 400 to 500 aircraft does include all American, British AND Soviet aircraft right? The Soviets alone lost 4 300 aircraft (in combat) from January to May. As for the British- Bomber Command alone lost 590 aircraft from January to April. So your supposition that the R4M rocket could not have destroyed as many aircraft as claimed by the few surviving reports is frankly unsupportable.


Adaptation takes time. If the Allies need just 6 months to install a countermeasure it would allready have been to late.



Dont worry - now that I know that you just handwave things away that represented an obstacle to Allied victory Im not really interested anymore. Seeing that in your TL 1955 Germany still fights with 1945 technology, while the 1955 Allies fight with 1960 technology I cant take it seriously anymore. I guess I expected something else because of all the hype - sorry to have bothered you.
Well, sorry you find the work a disappointment.

I would, however, be remiss in not addressing one element of your specific response. Losses by any Allied air force prior to March 18 of 1945 are not really germane to the discussion. That was the combat debut of the weapon.

Thanks for the feedback nonetheless.
 
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The Scottish movement has been around for well over a century and a half. In this universe something that uses the world 'national', or 'nationalist' in its title has probably gained as much traction as in @. I'd suspect that the movement is somewhat similar to how it was pre-1945.

Mind you, Robert McIntyre would have been an MP for fifteen years rather than a few months! :D
 

Telakasi

Banned
Losses by any Allied air force prior to March 18 of 1945 are not really germane to the discussion. That was the combat debut of the weapon.

During the Berlin offensive alone the Soviets lost 917 combat aircraft (in combat) and Bomber Command lost 288 in March/April. And 8th air force lost at least 280 aircraft from March 19th until early May. That means if the R4M destroyed just 100 British, 100 American and 200 Soviet aircraft it would allready have reached the 400 as claimed by the books I have provided. You and your supporters on the other hand claim that these numbers are wrong, yet have not provided any evidence to support this claim.

The only thing JN1 manged to throw at me was a link that claims that in a single engagement the R4M rocket destroyed 25 Allied bombers without any losses on the German side. Again - thanks for the help mate!
 
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