Pre-Columbian Native American cultures, PODs and alternate histories discussion

Petike · Sep 18, 2021

Greetings, everyone.

This thread is a replacement for the apparently concluded thread started in 2019 by Tempered Zen.

I intend this thread to be a continuation of that earlier discussion, but in a forum with more impact and with greater longevity.

Things to discuss in this thread (friendly guidelines to help foster well-informed, constructive and civil discussions):
- pre-Columbian (pre-contact) Native American history and alternate history (so please, no debates on US-Indian Wars of the 1800s)
- existing knowledge (including latest research and finds) on OTL history of the indigenous cultures of the Americas prior to (or at most very early into) European contact
- potential points of divergence for Pre-Columbian alternate history scenarios and timelines/stories
- the writing aspects of timelines and other alternate history stories that involve pre-Columbian cultures
- existing

What not to discuss in this thread (friendly guidelines to avoid arguing or causing embarassments):
- as this thread doesn't focus on post-contact (post-Columbian) history or PODs, don't discuss post-contact topics, especially not of a thorny political nature, whether historical or current (on that note, current political discussions are not allowed in this thread, take them to Political Chat)
- do not use discredited pseudoarchaeological/pseudohistorical hypotheses, or highly controversial or dubious-at-best hypotheses/theories about pre-Columbian native cultures, that weren't verified by a peer-review process and are fringe or otherwise not accepted by the vast majority of people working in the field of historical, archaeological and ethnographic research of Native American cultures
- if you have an ASB idea involving Pre-Columbian Native American cultures, please post it in the ASB forum, as it does not fit the Before 1900 forum

Links on our wiki:
- Native American points of divergence (detailed overview)
- Native American linguistic resources (not quite complete, but already covers a huge number of languages)
- general resources on native cultures worldwide (includes resources on indigenous cultures of the Americas)
- Native American timelines and AH stories

Ladies and gentlemen, feel free to engage in respectful and insightful discussion in this general discussion thread.

Don't be shy, the continued existence of this thread depends on your posts.

Petike · Sep 18, 2021

USEFUL RESOURCES

Already listed above:
- Native American linguistic resources (not quite complete, but already covers a huge number of languages)
- general resources on native cultures worldwide (includes resources on indigenous cultures of the Americas)

----

Resources shared/provided by AH.commer Arkenfolm:

----

Resources shared/provided by AH.commer Awesome Carlos:

"For Mesoamerica, I suggest Matthew Restall, who has debunked myths of the region."

----

Resources shared/provided by AH.commer lou H:

Collection of grammars from all across the world, resources on NA languages are slightly scarce sometimes but what it does have is quite useful
Significant amount of freely accessible anthropology sources
Just a generally interesting blog about decolonization worldwide
For mapmaking, a bunch of compiled tips I find very useful
You can check out 5 books at a time from archive.org, it's primarily older resources on linguistics, history and anthropology available there as that's what archive is allowed to keep legally i guess

----

Resources shared/provided by AH.commer Petike (me):

I've found an interesting chapter or two on the phonology and other linguistic aspects of some Native American languages.

nativelanguages_chiricahua_apache_notes-jpg.564801

Chiricahua Apache. Apache dialects are cousins to Navajo, and Navajo also has a similar not-really-that-many-adjectives grammar system.

They're more descriptive languages.

nativelanguagesphonologicalclues-jpg.564799

Phonology notes, focusing mainly on Mesoamerican languages.

All sourced from Historical Linguistics: An Introduction.

-----

Sealaska Heritage Institute:

Official website

Official YT channel

http://paninuittrails.org/index.html - This might come in handy for those who like researching Inuit peoples.

----

If anyone is interested in a few comprehensive Osprey Publishing e-books about various regional native cultures of North America in the pre-Columbian and post-Columbian period, please let me know and I'll send them to you.

----

Learning the basics of Tlingit (playlist, Sealaska Heritage Institute)

Learning the basics of Haida (playlist, Sealaska Heritage Institute)

Learning the basics of Tsimshian (playlist, Sealaska Heritage Institute)

Duolingo beta for learning the basics of Navajo (currently without notes, the final version will include them:

Learn a language for free

Learn languages by playing a game. It's 100% free, fun, and scientifically proven to work.

www.duolingo.com

----

Other geographic, cultural and economic topics related to the timeline:

Domesticated crops from pre-Columbian North America - just a general list and a overview of these agricultural crops.
Native American ethnobotany - various plant species around the Americas, used as a source of food or domesticated crops, for medicinal and healing purposes, and for crafting and woodworking various tools and weapons, including archery equipment
Native American use of fire in ecosystems - general article on the Native American use of fire for agricultural, forestry and other economic purposes
Metallurgy in pre-Columbian America - article on existing examples of mettalurgy in the New World (generally gold and copper item manufacturing, very rarely bronze, and no iron or steel)
Dwelling types of pre-Columbian North America - a comprehensive overview of the housing architecture and dwelling types of pre-Columbian native Americans in North America. (Here's a little addendum on how a wigwam hut was traditionally constructed.)
Indigenous peoples of the Eastern Woodlands - the eastern woodlands cultures of North America, including much of the Atlantic coastline. For the northeast equivalent, see here, and for the southeast equivalent, see here.
Eastern agricultural complex - the agriculture of the eastern woodlands cultures of North America, and some of its unique domestifications of plants for sedentary agriculture. Maize, though originally a central American crop, reached the eastern woodlands by the start of the 1st millennium AD, and became a commonly grown crop in eastern and northeastern North America by about 900 AD
Hopewell cultural complex - a continuity of archaeologically known natives cultures from eastern North America of the 1st millennium AD, sharing various technological, economic and cultural practices
Mississippian cultural complex - a continuity of archaeologically known natives cultures from eastern North America of roughly the 10th/11th to 16th century AD, sharing various technological, economic and cultural practices; an even more advanced successor to the some of the previous Hopewell tradition
Cahokia Mounds archaeological site and museum - documenting the remains of the largest known pre-Columbian city in North America, in the modern day state of Illinois
Indigenous peoples of the Pacific Northwest and the Northwest Plateau - the native cultures of northwestern North America
Pacific Northwest economy and agriculture - there was no real tilling-the-fields agriculture up in the northwest, but the local nationalities had a system of thicket and slash-and-burn clearing of coastal forests, encouraging forageable plants to grow, and of course, had a very well-developed fishing and whaling culture, the real backbone of their native economy, with hunting an additional source of food
Oasisamerica - overview of the region inhabited by the southwestern North American cultures (SW United States and NW Mexico)
Indigenous peoples of the North American Southwest - the southwest native cultures of North America
Agriculture in the prehistoric Southwest - the agriculture of the southwest cultures of North America, and some of its unique domestifications of plants and technique adaptations for sedentary agriculture in a more arid environment. Here's a further article on Hopi agriculture specifically.
The Pueblo Farming Project - an experimental archaeology project, a collaboration between Hopi farmers and the Crow Canyon Archaeological Center, that looks at southwestern agricultural practices in the past. Obviously, pre-contact southwestern cultures had more modest farming technology than what they potentially have at their disposal today.
Ancestral Puebloan dwellings - the dwelling and town architecture of the southwestern cultures, including the "pueblos" and other related architecture. (Fun fact: Acoma Pueblo is still inhabited nowadays, as a more semi-modern example, though it has a 2000 year old continuity.) Once the Navajo arrived in our world's southwestern US, they also constructed what's referred to as "pueblitos", small stone-fortified settlements and towns. These are surprisingly similar to smaller forms of European and other Old World castles, even moreso than the more traditional form of pueblos, many of them already quite formiddable in terms of defensive capability.

Some videos on weapons and armour of non-metallurgical cultures - including Native Americans, Siberians, Polynesians, etc.:

Melee: Weapons without metals (general look, at Native American and Polynesian examples)
Melee: Crafting a replica ballhead club of eastern woodlands cultures (Great Lakes regional style replica)
Melee: Testing a ballhead club with a spike (simple weapon, but very nasty !)
Melee: 16th century bladed truncheons of Algonquin-speaking people (mentioned by Roanoke colonist Thomas Harriot)
Melee: Native lithic (stone) tools (from the Woodland period of North American pre-Columbian cultures)
Melee: Flintknapping a stone blade for a Native American knife
Armour: Iroquois wooden-frame armour (Part 1) and (Part 2) - nice video on a form of armour they had, with a simple non-metal breastplate and shield-like backplate, in addition to more ordinary unframed padded armour (more similar to a gambeson)
Armour: Tommy Joseph's lecture on his detailed reconstructions of Tlingit and other Pacific Northwest peoples' armour
Armour: American Warriors of the Northwest Coast (video lecture on native warriors and armour by the Sealaska Heritage Institute)
Armour: Siberian native armour from the Siberian Bronze Age, consisting of overlapping little plates made of bone and antler
Armour: Examples of armour with leather or bone parts throughout various cultures in history (the video discusses Siberian native armours at the 14:50 mark - stuff even Amerindians could potentially make)
As a little bonus, here's a discussion about various OTL Native Americans adopting and modifying imported Old World swords throughout history.

Some additional reading and images on the subject of traditional bow and crossbow forms, specifically those found outside of Europe:

American Indian Archery Technology - general article on the technological history of North American native bows and arrows (with an added focus on the OTL state of Iowa and the Great Plains cultures; bows and arrows became common in Iowa only around 500 AD)
A Note On Indian Bow Making or The Secrets of Sinew (article by Dick Baugh) - sinew use in simpler Native American composite bows
North American Sioux Indian Archery (article by Robert E. Kaiser) - Great Plains Native American bows and archery
Inuit cable-backed bow and Inuit arrows archery set - similar to the sinew-reinforced bows of Native Americans south of the Arctic
Video on making a Native American style composite hornbow (in the manner of western North American hornbow making)
Stone tool (i.e. lithic) technology among North American natives between 600 AD and 1600 AD (full research article)
Science articles on the potential sociopolitical impacts of bow archery on Native American cultures by region: northern regions of North America, Eastern Woodlands cultures, Southwest cultures, Californian coastal cultures, Canadian Plains cultures
Southeast Asian traditional crossbows: thami - image (Myanmar, Thailand), Thai crossbows, Vietnamese crossbows
Video on making a Southeast Asian traditional crossbow with only basic tools
Archery: Old method of seasoning a juniper stave for bowstave making (western North America)
Archery: Richard Fields, a modern day Cherokee bowyer, talking about his craft (southeastern North America)
Archery: Eastern Woodlands cultures archery (northeast and northern North America) - aside from the general overview, this video mentions the account of John Smith; native wooden "swords" (bladed clubs) also get a brief mention, based partly on another period account)
Archery: Native American sinew-backed/sinew-reinforced bows (and their covers)
Archery: Wyoming bowyers Tom and Travis Lucas on native hornbow making with bighorn sheep horn material (western North America)
Archery: Native American horn-and-wood composite bows (and how they compare with Old World cousins)
Archery: Playlist on crafting traditional forms of Native American arrows (stone, wooden, bone arrowheads, often detachabale/swappable; Californian (Yahi) and Comanche examples)
Archery: An overview of various traditional arrowhead types of North America
Archery: Video on replica of a Native American "trade arrowhead" arrow (i.e. one with a bought or otherwise traded steel broadhead, in contrast to a native obsidian broadhead or other stone broadhead)
Archery: Video on crafting a "trade arrowhead" arrow replica
Archery: Native Californian arrow with wooden barbed arrowhead equipped with a bone point
Archery: North Californian and Pacific Northwest Klamath "water-skipping arrow" for hunting duck and other waterfowl
Archery: Another video on the Klamath water-skipping arrow for hunting waterfowl (northern and northwest Pacific coast)
Archery: Crafting and shooting a reconstruction of a Khanty whistling arrow from Siberia (historically used for waterfowl hunting tactics) - there's really not much evidence that North American natives had and used whistling arrows, they were more of a north European/Siberian and Asian archery thing, but I've added some to the timeline, presumably invented independently, or having arrived as an idea from Siberia, across the Bering Strait, then down the Pacific coastline, until it spread through North America
Archery: Detachable arrowhead types for arrows and for hunting javelins launched by spear-throwers (this includes not only Old World Mesolithic and Neolithic spear-throwers, but the North American examples and the Mesoamerican atl-atl spear-throwers as well)
Archery: A simple Stone Age arrow, with a Mesolithic era microlith (thin stone flake) arrowhead and Neolithic era fletching (reconstruction by bowyer Shawn Woods)

Episodes of ArchaeoSoup's now-concluded Archaescoop news:
- Early Mayan turkey domestication
- Huge settlement found in Canada

Trey the Explainer's fascinating video on Native American dogs and their genetics:
- What happened to the pre-contact dogs ?

Lindybeige's visit to Guatemalan Mayan ruins:
- Mayan jade artefacts in a Guatemalan museum
- "El Zotz", ruins of the Mayan "City of Bats"
- "Uaxactun" with Mayan observatories

----

Resources shared/provided by AH.commer twovultures:

"Some useful resources that I seem to turn to regularly, and so maybe should be posted here for ease of access:

Horse Nations by Peter Mitchell

Polynesians in America by Jones et al

I've signed up for training this month through the library system I work for on Native American issues. Should be interesting."

----

Resources shared/provided by AH.commer odinson and Tempered Zen:

"Try warpaths2peacepipes.com."

"I'd second that recommendation, it's a really useful website. Check out the Delaware's official website (delawaretribe.org) too, they have loads of information. Native-languages.org is usually helpful as well. While the site provides a more general overview (and it focuses more on the linguistic aspect), they have links that focus on more specific topics.

As far as anything else, I don't have anything in my library on the Delaware during that timeframe specifically (I mostly have before contact stuff, as well as myths and general cultural things, don't know how useful that might be), but since you're in the post-Columbian period, a quick Google search might work.

If you're looking for a more comprehensive look (and can find a copy), I'd recommend The Delaware Indians: A History by C. A. Weslager.

Also, pro-tip on researching the Delaware- Take the Walam Olum with a grain of salt."

----

Resources shared/provided by AH.commer Thanksforallthefish:

"I offer to you this invaluable resource in Spanish: Pueblosoriginarios.com . It has endless detail, resources and clear descriptions of people from all the Americas, both ancient peoples and their current descendants. If anyone needs help I can offer myself as a translator. It is really an invaluable website."

Vinization · Sep 18, 2021

I always wondered what could be the consequences of more extensive contact between Polynesia and the Americas. Say their expansion doesn't suddenly pause for 1000 years, ensuring that they reach Rapa Nui many centuries earlier (say, around 500 AD). This gives them plenty of time to settle the Galapagos and other places (Cocos Island, the Islas Marías and maybe even the Channel Islands), which can then serve as points from which they interact and trade with the Andean and Mesoamerican civilizations.

Petike · Sep 20, 2021

If I find any more serious resources, from the previous thread or elsewhere, I will add them.

Native American timelines now have their own article on our wiki.

Vinization said:
I always wondered what could be the consequences of more extensive contact between Polynesia and the Americas. Say their expansion doesn't suddenly pause for 1000 years, ensuring that they reach Rapa Nui many centuries earlier (say, around 500 AD). This gives them plenty of time to settle the Galapagos and other places (Cocos Island, the Islas Marías and maybe even the Channel Islands), which can then serve as points from which they interact and trade with the Andean and Mesoamerican civilizations.

Tha would depend a lot on whether the Polynesian side and the South American side were in regular contact at all (as opposed to fairly sporadic contact), and on whether they had any intention to trade and exchange things with each other on a regular, rather than sporadic basis. You'd also have to look into why the Polynesians never reached the Galapagos islands or Cocos Islands, et al, in the easternmost Pacific. It might have been happenstance, but there might have been other reasons in play.

The unfortunate thing about studying the history of Polynesian and South American native contact is that there has been a lot of quackery involved in this topic in the past, at least several decades ago and for several decades. I won't bash Thor Heyerdahl, because he meant well, but what he was proposing and promoting was something different to what modern archaeology, modern genetic analyses, etc., have shown.

With hindsight, Heyerdahl was doing far-reaching conclusions on Polynesian and South American contacts and intermingling. A sort of more acceptable version of that dilweed Hancock seeing the ancient and medieval Chinese behind literally everything worldwide. Or Vinland fanboys claiming that Scandinavians were running around the entirety of North America, buddying up with natives, despite there being no evidence for that aside from a few huts at L'Anse aux Meadows.

Vinization · Sep 20, 2021

Petike said:
If I find any more serious resources, from the previous thread or elsewhere, I will add them.

Do you have any good data on population numbers right before contact? I'm writing a TL, so it would be much appreciated.

Petike · Sep 20, 2021

Vinization said:
Do you have any good data on population numbers right before contact? I'm writing a TL, so it would be much appreciated.

I have never purposefully tracked down any data of that sort, but there might be professional estimates listed somwhere, at least in more public-accessible articles.

Vinization · Sep 20, 2021

Petike said:
I have never purposefully tracked down any data of that sort, but there might be professional estimates listed somwhere, at least in more public-accessible articles.

Thanks.

Vinization · Sep 20, 2021

I stumbled upon a cartographic gold mine in Reddit.

The top post is even better, full of maps of stuff involving Mesoamerica, from the big empires to the smaller chiefdoms, all carefully divided.

Vinization · Sep 20, 2021

This site seems to be a good source on Aztec culture and agriculture.

I'tikaf · Sep 20, 2021

Petike said:
USEFUL RESOURCES

Already listed above:
- Native American linguistic resources (not quite complete, but already covers a huge number of language)
- general resources on native cultures worldwide (includes resources on indigenous cultures of the Americas)

----

Resources shared/provided by AH.commer Arkenfolm:

"I've used Google Books extensively as I've written my pre-Columbian TL A Horn of Bronze so here's a variety of these texts annotated with my descriptions. The previews available are usually decent and with clever searching you should be able to reveal plenty of additional useful information.

https://books.google.com/books?id=D1Ffhzz0UOkC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false - Nez Perce
https://books.google.com/books?id=4_y_uAbaCOoC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false - Cayuse
https://books.google.com/books?id=2Nx1guRPcu8C&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false - Plateau/Columbia/Sahaptins
https://books.google.com/books?id=oTYXs35aTFkC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false- Chinook wawa
https://books.google.com/books?id=ukqw6sstR54C&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false - Encyclopedia of American Prehistory
https://books.google.com/books?id=Q1BFAAAAMAAJ - Takelma
https://books.google.com/books?id=xoR0AAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false - Oregon archaeology
https://books.google.com/books?id=U7Nfd8J7FmwC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false - Northern Paiute dictionary
https://books.google.com/books?id=OaEwAAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false - Washoe
https://books.google.com/books?id=mUDbAwAAQBAJ - Tututni
https://books.google.com/books?id=YtwUBQAAQBAJ - Denaina
https://books.google.com/books?id=9ZoEh0udvTQC - Nooksack
https://books.google.com/books?id=ekq921r1kV0C - Lushootseed
https://books.google.com/books?id=hbNFWv94THQC - Sahaptin/Tenino
https://books.google.com/books?id=Z3X0q28uB7cC - Nez Perce dictionary
https://books.google.com/books?id=CdKUAwAAQBAJ - Numic expansion
https://books.google.com/books?id=gWH-VKscau4C - Idaho
https://books.google.com/books?id=VHKTDAAAQBAJ - Great Basin/Colorado Plateau
https://books.google.com/books?id=IiuNLhUZpTMC - Opata
https://books.google.com/books?id=9ITLnLu0TLAC - Casas Grandes/Paquime
https://books.google.com/books?id=WfRqBgAAQBAJ - Casas Grandes/Paquime
https://books.google.com/books?id=YrsAlkuLPg4C - Mississippians
https://books.google.com/books?id=9XuM4DcrWhQC - Mississippians
https://books.google.com/books?id=PsYpDwAAQBAJ - Caddoans
https://books.google.com/books?id=LUVTFUXJpZgC - Texas
https://books.google.com/books?id=Z4DhuHc-sG8C - Lower Ohio River
https://books.google.com/books?id=yFFReQFAPpEC - Eastern Woodlands
https://books.google.com/books?id=bABAAAAAYAAJ - Puebloan names (most Tewa)
https://books.google.com/books?id=6KCQCgAAQBAJ - Zuni/Southwest
https://books.google.com/books?id=yCq6kBwHrKIC - Koasati/Alibamu
https://books.google.com/books?id=LXJNAAAAQBAJ - Descent/kinship/inheritance/Salish/Wakashan
https://books.google.com/books?id=u9iCMq0zBnQC - Interior Salish
https://books.google.com/books?id=PpaSbEGmOaEC - Cowlitz
https://books.google.com/books?id=7Vo3lD_V9JUC - WA ethnobotany
https://books.google.com/books?id=g3uNxI851A0C - Northwest archaeology
https://books.google.com/books?id=qWg1DwAAQBAJ - Interior Salish
https://books.google.com/books?id=o5LRp0B2Cy8C - Plateau Plateau archaeology
https://books.google.com/books?id=aPIEjEZUEUQC - Interior Salish
https://books.google.com/books?id=NPqEDwAAQBAJ - Chehalis

There's a few more sources I have which are available in full IIRC:
http://faculty.washington.edu/hunn/vitae/Hunn 2007 OHQ Sk'in.PDF - Celilo/Wayam
https://anthrosource.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/toc/15481433/1938/40/3 - Denaina
https://escholarship.org/uc/item/5t63g845 - Naming (Foothills)
https://escholarship.org/uc/item/47v2w4gw - Wintu
http://cla.berkeley.edu/item.php?bndlid=1419 - Pomo
http://ksw.shoin.ac.jp/spaelti/Klamath/ - Klamath
http://nalc.ucdavis.edu/hupa/hupa-lexicon.html - Hupa
https://anthrosource.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1525/aa.1925.27.4.02a00030 - Tolowa
https://archive.org/details/jstor-532806/page/n1 - Siletz
https://archive.org/details/jstor-659586/page/n5 - Takelma

https://escholarship.org/ is typically a nice source since the University of California system has been very kind in free publishing, although for the purposes of this thread it mostly focuses on the California Indians (I found a nice Wintu dictionary there). The American Anthropologist journal is also very kind in releasing it's many old issues.
https://www.tn.gov/environment/program-areas/arch-archaeology/archaeology-publications.html - The Tennessee state government's archaeology department which has some nice free sources on local archaeology including articles from some important specialists on the Woodland and Mississippian period in the region like those who created the "stone box graves", a notable trait of the Middle Cumberland Mississippians.

If you can find it, the Handbook of North American Indians is a fantastic overview of linguistics, archaeology, and anthropology of numerous groups.

As for sources I'm looking for, I'm looking for any free source (even limited) on the Yoncalla/Southern Kalapuya, Tsamosan-speaking Coast Salish (Chehalis, Lower Cowlitz, etc.), and Upper Umpqua (the Athabaskan-speaking group since "Umpqua Indians" has historically been a vague term)."

"Another dump of sources I've used, mostly Google Books. Same focus on the Pacific Northwest but some from outside that region. I notice one on Hokkaido toponymy which I listed because I was curious how the Japanese interpreted the local Ainu names.

https://books.google.com/books?id=G8PhsYU1xnYC - Sinixt/Lakes
https://books.google.com/books?id=bv8mLjJADw4C - Coast Salish
https://web.archive.org/web/20090730030604/http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9479/salish.html - Salish
https://books.google.com/books?id=QRHLy4xwcboC - PNW slavery
https://books.google.com/books?id=kWBHAQAAMAAJ - PNW Kinship
http://www.interiorsalish.com/ - Interior Salish
https://books.google.com/books?id=5XfxzCm1qa4C - Place names (nationwide)
https://digitalcollections.lib.washington.edu/digital/collection/lctext/id/7634/rec/2 - Sahaptin texts
https://books.google.com/books?id=MP8Vqmvg0qwC - Wishram/Chinook
https://books.google.com/books?id=LDq1ZbjDA5wC& - The Dalles
https://digitalcollections.lib.washington.edu/digital/collection/lctext/id/1580 - Wishram
https://books.google.com/books?id=9jDtBgAAQBAJ - Potlatch
https://books.google.com/books?id=xQK5DwAAQBAJ - Northwest anthropology/archaeology
https://pages.uoregon.edu/ecostudy/elp/ehistory/kalapuya.htm - kalapuya
Kalapuya Amin: 2006 Symposium
http://saanich.montler.net/WordList/placenames.html - Saanich/Straits Salish
https://pdxscholar.library.pdx.edu/open_access_etds - Open access, useful content
Coast Salish Villages of Puget Sound
https://archive.org/details/cu31924027107741/page/n11 - Galice/Applegate/Chasta Costa
https://books.google.com/books?id=kGGZcb8ISH8C - Toyah phase (Central Texas)
https://archive.org/details/Ethnographyphil00Hale - Australian Aboriginals and Northwestern Amerindians
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Journal_of_Northwest_Anthropology/F9t7DwAAQBAJ - Rainier/volcanoes
https://books.google.com/books?id=zvrdVG44R-IC - Halkomelem/Stolo
http://www.pref.hokkaido.lg.jp/ks/ass/new_timeilist.htm - Ainu toponomy (Hokkaido, in Japanese)
https://digitalcollections.lib.washington.edu/digital/collection/lctext/id/7498 - Columbia Salish
https://books.google.com/books?id=qUwYm6e8UxgC - Spokane
https://archive.org/details/cbarchive_121801_thesalishantribesofthewesternp1895 - Interior Salish
https://books.google.com/books?id=W3PZHcvr7EkC - BC archaeology
https://www.jstor.org/stable/i253971 - Athabaskan (Nicola, Portland Canal BC)
https://books.google.com/books?id=KZhdAAAAQBAJ - Chilcotin
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278416518302368 - Reindeer domestication
https://books.google.com/books?id=ZYHc2ShJFFkC - Lillooet grammar
https://books.google.com/books?id=NbuZDwAAQBAJ - Athabaskan prehistory
https://books.google.com/books?id=ahvVAgAAQBAJ - Place Names (Canada/West US)
https://anthrosource.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1525/aa.1938.40.3.02a00040 - Oregon Indians
https://books.google.com/books?id=9HfqRdLXyAwC - Huu-ay-aht (Nuu-chah-nulth)
http://iridl.ldeo.columbia.edu/SOURCES/.LDEO/.TRL/.NADA2004/.pdsi-atlas.html - Historic Drought atlas
https://www.jstor.org/stable/1264210 - Methow
condortales.com
https://archive.org/details/adictionarykali00jesugoog - Kalispel dictionary (Jesuit)
https://www.jstor.org/stable/3034689 - Haida settlement patterns
https://scholarsbank.uoregon.edu/xmlui - Open access sources
https://books.google.com/books?id=HuCjdhf_hMIC - Chinookan
http://undiscoveredcoast.blogspot.com - Northern Vancouver Island
https://digitalcollections.lib.washington.edu/digital/collection/lctext/id/8186 - Sanpoil/Nespelem
https://books.google.com/books?id=Jw9wAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false - Skagit/Mount Baker/Nooksack/Salish
https://archive.org/details/rosettaproject_noo_vertxt-1 - Nootka/Nuu-chah-nulth (Sapir)
https://anthrosource.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1525/aa.1941.43.2.02a00050 - Lushootseed/Coast Salish
https://anthrosource.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1525/aa.1938.40.1.02a00120 - Canadian Coast Salish
https://tulaliplushootseed.com/places/ - Toponymy
https://www.jstor.org/stable/41103698 - Athabaskan migrations
https://books.google.com/books?id=ustxjL5p-y4C - Olympic Peninsula
https://archive.org/details/notesarchaeologi00moriuoft/ - Morice, Carrier Athabaskans
https://anthrosource.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1525/aa.1933.35.4.02a00050 - Carrier names/toponymy
https://archive.org/details/greatdenerace00moririch/page/n11/mode/2up - Morice, Dene/Athabaskans
https://www.billposer.org/NakalbunCarrierDictionary/dicttop.html - Carrier
https://www.jstor.org/stable/43868950 - Woodland ethnicity
https://www.jstor.org/stable/1265868 - Alsea/Wintu
https://books.google.com/books?id=fFX066QfQv8C - California Prehistory
https://books.google.com/books?id=W_zrDwAAQBAJ - Numic Archaeology
https://www.firstvoices.com/ - Mostly Canadian indigenous languages
https://ndnhistoryresearch.com/ - Blog of an Oregon historian/anthropologist and college professor of Kalapuya descent, lots of articles on indigenous history in the area (along with colonial Oregon)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCo8b-uS6uD5l9YitDJpA2RA - A Christian/missionary Youtube channel featuring all manner of Bible stories in indigenous languages (including indigenous American)
https://www.jstor.org/stable/43103149 - Columbia Plateau toponymy

A few websites like the Smithsonian have free archives of anthropological sources, like Philip Drucker's work on the Nootka/Nuu-chah-nulth which remain important sources to this day. I don't seem to have saved the link to those sources however.

The Alaska Native Language Archive is extremely useful for all the indigenous languages and cultures of Alaska (which extend into Yukon and BC).

Also note that until the end of the year, JSTOR is offering 100 free articles a month thanks to the COVID-19 pandemic and JSTOR has a lot of useful sources."

----

Resources shared/provided by AH.commer Awesome Carlos:

"For Mesoamerica, I suggest Matthew Restall, who has debunked myths of the region."

----

Resources shared/provided by AH.commer lou H:

Collection of grammars from all across the world, resources on NA languages are slightly scarce sometimes but what it does have is quite useful

Significant amount of freely accessible anthropology sources

Just a generally interesting blog about decolonization worldwide

For mapmaking, a bunch of compiled tips I find very useful

You can check out 5 books at a time from archive.org, it's primarily older resources on linguistics, history and anthropology available there as that's what archive is allowed to keep legally i guess

----

Resources shared/provided by AH.commer Petike (me):

I've found an interesting chapter or two on the phonology and other linguistic aspects of some Native American languages.

Chiricahua Apache. Apache dialects are cousins to Navajo, and Navajo also has a similar not-really-that-many-adjectives grammar system.

They're more descriptive languages.

Phonology notes, focusing mainly on Mesoamerican languages.

All sourced from Historical Linguistics: An Introduction.

-----

Sealaska Heritage Institute:

Official website

Official YT channel

http://paninuittrails.org/index.html - This might come in handy for those who like researching Inuit peoples.

----

If anyone is interested in a few comprehensive Osprey Publishing e-books about various regional native cultures of North America in the pre-Columbian and post-Columbian period, please let me know and I'll send them to you.

----

Learning the basics of Tlingit (playlist, Sealaska Heritage Institute)

Learning the basics of Haida (playlist, Sealaska Heritage Institute)

Learning the basics of Tsimshian (playlist, Sealaska Heritage Institute)

Duolingo beta for learning the basics of Navajo (currently without notes, the final version will include them:

Learn a language for free

Learn languages by playing a game. It's 100% free, fun, and scientifically proven to work.

www.duolingo.com

----

Other geographic, cultural and economic topics related to the timeline:

Domesticated crops from pre-Columbian North America - just a general list and a overview of these agricultural crops.

Native American ethnobotany - various plant species around the Americas, used as a source of food or domesticated crops, for medicinal and healing purposes, and for crafting and woodworking various tools and weapons, including archery equipment

Native American use of fire in ecosystems - general article on the Native American use of fire for agricultural, forestry and other economic purposes

Metallurgy in pre-Columbian America - article on existing examples of mettalurgy in the New World (generally gold and copper item manufacturing, very rarely bronze, and no iron or steel)

Dwelling types of pre-Columbian North America - a comprehensive overview of the housing architecture and dwelling types of pre-Columbian native Americans in North America. (Here's a little addendum on how a wigwam hut was traditionally constructed.)

Indigenous peoples of the Eastern Woodlands - the eastern woodlands cultures of North America, including much of the Atlantic coastline. For the northeast equivalent, see here, and for the southeast equivalent, see here.

Eastern agricultural complex - the agriculture of the eastern woodlands cultures of North America, and some of its unique domestifications of plants for sedentary agriculture. Maize, though originally a central American crop, reached the eastern woodlands by the start of the 1st millennium AD, and became a commonly grown crop in eastern and northeastern North America by about 900 AD (so, just a few decades before our crossbow-themed story begins)

Hopewell cultural complex - a continuity of archaeologically known natives cultures from eastern North America of the 1st millennium AD, sharing various technological, economic and cultural practices

Mississippian cultural complex - a continuity of archaeologically known natives cultures from eastern North America of roughly the 10th/11th to 16th century AD, sharing various technological, economic and cultural practices; an even more advanced successor to the some of the previous Hopewell tradition

Cahokia Mounds archaeological site and museum - documenting the remains of the largest known pre-Columbian city in North America, in the modern day state of Illinois (similar to the large native city appearing briefly in my story)

Indigenous peoples of the Pacific Northwest and the Northwest Plateau - the native cultures of northwestern North America

Pacific Northwest economy and agriculture - there was no real tilling-the-fields agriculture up in the northwest, but the local nationalities had a system of thicket and slash-and-burn clearing of coastal forests, encouraging forageable plants to grow, and of course, had a very well-developed fishing and whaling culture, the real backbone of their native economy, with hunting an additional source of food

Oasisamerica - overview of the region inhabited by the southwestern North American cultures (SW United States and NW Mexico)

Indigenous peoples of the North American Southwest - the southwest native cultures of North America

Agriculture in the prehistoric Southwest - the agriculture of the southwest cultures of North America, and some of its unique domestifications of plants and technique adaptations for sedentary agriculture in a more arid environment. Here's a further article on Hopi agriculture specifically.

The Pueblo Farming Project - an experimental archaeology project, a collaboration between Hopi farmers and the Crow Canyon Archaeological Center, that looks at southwestern agricultural practices in the past. Obviously, pre-contact southwestern cultures had more modest farming technology than what they potentially have at their disposal today.

Ancestral Puebloan dwellings - the dwelling and town architecture of the southwestern cultures, including the "pueblos" and other related architecture. (Fun fact: Acoma Pueblo is still inhabited nowadays, as a more semi-modern example, though it has a 2000 year old continuity.) Once the Navajo arrived in our world's southwestern US, they also constructed what's referred to as "pueblitos", small stone-fortified settlements and towns. These are surprisingly similar to smaller forms of European and other Old World castles, even moreso than the more traditional form of pueblos, many of them already quite formiddable in terms of defensive capability.

Some videos on weapons and armour of non-metallurgical cultures - including Native Americans, Siberians, Polynesians, etc.:

Melee: Weapons without metals (general look, at Native American and Polynesian examples)

Melee: Crafting a replica ballhead club of eastern woodlands cultures (Great Lakes regional style replica)

Melee: Testing a ballhead club with a spike (simple weapon, but very nasty !)

Melee: 16th century bladed truncheons of Algonquin-speaking people (mentioned by Roanoke colonist Thomas Harriot)

Melee: Native lithic (stone) tools (from the Woodland period of North American pre-Columbian cultures)

Melee: Flintknapping a stone blade for a Native American knife

Armour: Iroquois wooden-frame armour (Part 1) and (Part 2) - nice video on a form of armour they had, with a simple non-metal breastplate and shield-like backplate, in addition to more ordinary unframed padded armour (more similar to a gambeson)

Armour: Tommy Joseph's lecture on his detailed reconstructions of Tlingit and other Pacific Northwest peoples' armour

Armour: American Warriors of the Northwest Coast (video lecture on native warriors and armour by the Sealaska Heritage Institute)

Armour: Siberian native armour from the Siberian Bronze Age, consisting of overlapping little plates made of bone and antler

Armour: Examples of armour with leather or bone parts throughout various cultures in history (the video discusses Siberian native armours at the 14:50 mark - stuff even Amerindians could potentially make)

As a little bonus, here's a discussion about various OTL Native Americans adopting and modifying imported Old World swords throughout history.

Some additional reading and images on the subject of traditional bow and crossbow forms, specifically those found outside of Europe:

American Indian Archery Technology - general article on the technological history of North American native bows and arrows (with an added focus on the OTL state of Iowa and the Great Plains cultures; bows and arrows became common in Iowa only around 500 AD)

A Note On Indian Bow Making or The Secrets of Sinew (article by Dick Baugh) - sinew use in simpler Native American composite bows

North American Sioux Indian Archery (article by Robert E. Kaiser) - Great Plains Native American bows and archery

Inuit cable-backed bow and Inuit arrows archery set - similar to the sinew-reinforced bows of Native Americans south of the Arctic

Video on making a Native American style composite hornbow (in the manner of western North American hornbow making)

Stone tool (i.e. lithic) technology among North American natives between 600 AD and 1600 AD (full research article)

Science articles on the potential sociopolitical impacts of bow archery on Native American cultures by region: northern regions of North America, Eastern Woodlands cultures, Southwest cultures, Californian coastal cultures, Canadian Plains cultures

Southeast Asian traditional crossbows: thami - image (Myanmar, Thailand), Thai crossbows, Vietnamese crossbows

Video on making a Southeast Asian traditional crossbow with only basic tools

Archery: Old method of seasoning a juniper stave for bowstave making (western North America)

Archery: Richard Fields, a modern day Cherokee bowyer, talking about his craft (southeastern North America)

Archery: Eastern Woodlands cultures archery (northeast and northern North America) - aside from the general overview, this video mentions the OTL account of John Smith, which I've paraphrased in my story to also include mention of native crossbows; native wooden "swords" (bladed clubs) also get a brief mention, based partly on another period account)

Archery: Native American sinew-backed/sinew-reinforced bows (and their covers)

Archery: Wyoming bowyers Tom and Travis Lucas on native hornbow making with bighorn sheep horn material (western North America)

Archery: Native American horn-and-wood composite bows (and how they compare with Old World cousins)

Archery: Playlist on crafting traditional forms of Native American arrows (stone, wooden, bone arrowheads, often detachabale/swappable; Californian (Yahi) and Comanche examples)

Archery: An overview of various traditional arrowhead types of North America

Archery: Video on replica of a Native American "trade arrowhead" arrow (i.e. one with a bought or otherwise traded steel broadhead, in contrast to a native obsidian broadhead or other stone broadhead)

Archery: Video on crafting a "trade arrowhead" arrow replica

Archery: Native Californian arrow with wooden barbed arrowhead equipped with a bone point

Archery: North Californian and Pacific Northwest Klamath "water-skipping arrow" for hunting duck and other waterfowl (maybe our father-and-son duo used something similar after using their whistling arrows and bolts to trick the ducks into landing)

Archery: Another video on the Klamath water-skipping arrow for hunting waterfowl (northern and northwest Pacific coast)

Archery: Crafting and shooting a reconstruction of a Khanty whistling arrow from Siberia (historically used for waterfowl hunting tactics) - there's really not much evidence that North American natives had and used whistling arrows, they were more of a north European/Siberian and Asian archery thing, but I've added some to the timeline, presumably invented independently, or having arrived as an idea from Siberia, across the Bering Strait, then down the Pacific coastline, until it spread through North America

Archery: Detachable arrowhead types for arrows and for hunting javelins launched by spear-throwers (this includes not only Old World Mesolithic and Neolithic spear-throwers, but the North American examples and the Mesoamerican atl-atl spear-throwers as well)

Archery: A simple Stone Age arrow, with a Mesolithic era microlith (thin stone flake) arrowhead and Neolithic era fletching (reconstruction by bowyer Shawn Woods)

Episodes of ArchaeoSoup's now-concluded Archaescoop news:
- Early Mayan turkey domestication
- Huge settlement found in Canada

Trey the Explainer's fascinating video on Native American dogs and their genetics:
- What happened to the pre-contact dogs ?

Lindybeige's visit to Guatemalan Mayan ruins:
- Mayan jade artefacts in a Guatemalan museum
- "El Zotz", ruins of the Mayan "City of Bats"
- "Uaxactun" with Mayan observatories

----

Resources shared/provided by AH.commer twovultures:

"Some useful resources that I seem to turn to regularly, and so maybe should be posted here for ease of access:

Horse Nations by Peter Mitchell

Polynesians in America by Jones et al

I've signed up for training this month through the library system I work for on Native American issues. Should be interesting."

----

Resources shared/provided by AH.commer odinson and Tempered Zen:

"Try warpaths2peacepipes.com."

"I'd second that recommendation, it's a really useful website. Check out the Delaware's official website (delawaretribe.org) too, they have loads of information. Native-languages.org is usually helpful as well. While the site provides a more general overview (and it focuses more on the linguistic aspect), they have links that focus on more specific topics.

As far as anything else, I don't have anything in my library on the Delaware during that timeframe specifically (I mostly have before contact stuff, as well as myths and general cultural things, don't know how useful that might be), but since you're in the post-Columbian period, a quick Google search might work.

If you're looking for a more comprehensive look (and can find a copy), I'd recommend The Delaware Indians: A History by C. A. Weslager.

Also, pro-tip on researching the Delaware- Take the Walam Olum with a grain of salt."

----

Resources shared/provided by AH.commer Thanksforallthefish:

"I offer to you this invaluable resource in Spanish: Pueblosoriginarios.com . It has endless detail, resources and clear descriptions of people from all the Americas, both ancient peoples and their current descendants. If anyone needs help I can offer myself as a translator. It is really an invaluable website."

This is an impressive list of resources I'll be sure to read through at least some of these. Though I'm not currently planning to create a Native-centred TL I am planning to create a TL with global implications so this is helpful, was wondering though if you have anything on the Plaquemine Mississippi ( I might have missed it scrolling through) though? I'm having a hard time creating names for Plaquemine individuals tried searching through the Natchez Dictionary and the Wiki but didn't find much on given names.

I'tikaf · Sep 20, 2021

Oh, and do you guys think a similar thread based around general Southeast Asian History might be fruitful? It is another portion of the world that I feel doesn't have much attention placed onto it and usually gets neglected in Timelines...

Kerney · Sep 21, 2021

Vinization said:
Do you have any good data on population numbers right before contact? I'm writing a TL, so it would be much appreciated.

First, off I know I'm a few years out of date (haven't looked in depth for a few years), but the answers you'll get are all over the place, with low counters going as low as 10m and high counters going 110m.

And someone on these forums will assume you got it grossly wrong no matter what you do.

There is a chapter in Charles Mann's 1491 just dedicated to this subject.

My personal suspicion is the archeology and historical research has improved and tend to favor the higher estimates but not the highest and something around 80m is close to correct but poplar understanding (i.e. readers) goes lower, to around 40m.

What is useful to you, however, is probably some regional histories which will give you a close up of a given area, for example, David E. Stuart's Anasazi America are more accurate and also have good fine details. Also, sources before the turn of the millennium are probably okay for ethnographic info but poor on population sizes.

Finally, some groups that are big now were moderately sized in the past but grew because they tended to take in or forcibly assimilate refugees/survivors from other groups post contact. Good examples of this are the Iroquois and Navajo.

Hope this is helpful.

Petike · Apr 12, 2022

I think it's time to give this thread a shot in the arm.

This particular post is related to Native American cultures more tangentially, as it pertains to a Polynesian culture. It's currently the 300th anniversary of the Easter Island's "discovery" by Dutch sailors. (And who knows how many more centuries before that saw the arrival of the natives.) You might have heard about all the eager claims over the years, that Easter Islanders supposedly had - or, wishful thinking, "should" have - DNA traces from the native peoples of South America.

Weeeelll... It's never been proven this was the case before European contact, and before the Europeans brought enslaved South Americans to Rapa Nui and, sadly, also took many Easter Islanders into slavery or indentured servitude, seriously damaging their cultural continuity.

The Skeptoid podcast just did a great episode on a lot of the misconceptions and research grey areas pertaining to Easter Island.

There's a lot of "popular wisdom" out there, based on far-fetched and outdated hypotheses, such as "the locals deforesting the whole island, then turning to cannibalism" and other stuff. Things like cannibalism on Easter Island have never been proven, not even in the archaeological record, where you'd think there'd be at least some abundant finds as evidence for this claim. (This podcast episode doesn't touch up only on Heyerdahl's claims, but also on Jared Diamond's claims. Yes, that Jared Diamond, and his "ecocide" claims and local environmental determinism claims.)

Similarly, DNA testing of DNA from pre-contact skeletons has not proven that Easter Islanders had non-Polynesian, South American DNA before the 18th and especially 19th century. That would put the inclusion of South American DNA well into the post-contact period, when Europeans or European colonies in South America were actively interfering with the lives and even continued survival of Easter Island's native Polynesians. In short, it's unlikely that (as "Heyerdahlites" liked to claim) there was any regular or even irregular pre-European contact between the islanders and South American coastal cultures, and as a consequence, also no intermarrying that could have added more South America indicative DNA markers to those of the Polynesian Easter Islanders.

Does this rule out transoceanic contact between Easter Island and other parts of Polynesia with South America ? Not entirely.

If anything, though we still don't have ay real evidence the seafaring cultures of Pacific coast South America did any ocean voyages, there seems to be some evidence that Polynesian sailors occassionally visited South America, to do some modest trade on the coast, then leave. So, there might have been some cotnact, but contrary to what "Heyerdahlites" kept peddling for decades, it was not from South America to Polynesia, but more likely the other way around.

In addition to this brand new podcast episode, I can also recommend this very well done FAQ about Rapa Nui Polynesians that focuses addressing a lot of those "popular wisdom" clichés about the island, the natives and the known archaeological record and history.

I don't want to turn this into a Polynesian history, archaeology and ethnography dicussion thread, but Easter Island seems to be brought up often by the "They did have contact with South America, didn't they ?" crowd, so I've felt this is a good side-topic to address.

Arkenfolm · May 3, 2022

This vaguely relates to some ideas for Mesoamerica I had for my TL--how thorough can you make a Nahua screw in the Postclassic starting around 1000-1100 AD? From what I can tell, Nahuatl speakers had spread to numerous places in central Mexico and coastal areas directly south by that era and even if you can attribute an Otomi or non-Nahua character to centers like Cholula, they were in so many places it seems like some Nahuatl group might rise to a dominant position.

I'd love to see a Mesoamerica divided into regional blocs with states of the Nahua, Mixtec, Zapotec, Huastec, and Purepecha all more or less equal in power (I won't count the Maya for this, but maybe 1-2 Maya states on that level). I'm not quite sure how to achieve that, granted, but it would make the area even more fascinating as it develops.

Arkenfolm · May 29, 2022

Here was another idea I had--getting the actual Olmecs (the people the archaeological culture was named for) more recognition by having their area be wealthier during the Postclassic. The Olmecs look to have been mostly Mixe-Zoque speaking people (thus very likely the descendents of the people who built La Venta, San Lorenzo, Tres Zapotes, etc.) but also Zapotecs and Mixtecs and Nahuas as Nahuatl was the lingua franca. It appears to have been a backwater in this era, known most for a belief that it was where Quetzalcoatl departed to the east (some say the city of Coatzacoalcos) and was a frontier of the Aztec Empire (the Spanish arrival stopped the Aztecs from subduing this area). However, it produced similar goods to nearby wealthier areas like rubber (hence the term "Olmec", "rubber people"), amber, and especially cotton so economic prosperity is very much possible.

So how can we make this area a wealthy center again? I was thinking the Quetzalcoatl belief could inspire a pilgrimage center (maybe in Coatzacoalcos itself), and then discovery of some nearby Olmec ruins "proves" to the locals and educated people of Mesoamerica that it is (or was) indeed Tlillan-Tlapallan, Quetzalcoatl's country, meaning more pilgrims and others. The goods from pilgrims are used to support merchant ventures of their own, letting the city compete with the Mayans to their east. The city perhaps ends up like Cholula, where the religious component provides the rationale for the city to exist. I'd assume the Olmec ruins nearby would be viewed akin to how the Aztecs and others viewed Teotihuacan and likely subject to some level of religious use.

Petike · Jul 16, 2022

Two nice videos on famous New World crop from a channel pertinent to this thread, Ancient Americas.

Godot · Jul 16, 2022

I'm glad this thread has returned to the frontpage and I've found it! I've done some work on a timeline, but I keep running into the problem of the POD.

Namely - a more successful Vinland colony leads to European diseases spreading in the Americas all the way back in 1000. Thus, by the time Europeans re-arrive in 1492, the continent(s) already have some degree of resistance to disease. Native Americans and Europe are left on more equal footing.

However, I have no clue if this makes sense, and I can't personally judge if the POD *would* lead to a more disease resistant Americas. Or maybe it would, but would butterfly so severely recognizable structures like the Haudenosaunee wouldn't even exist? Dunno. Looking for feedback!

Odinson · Jul 16, 2022

Assouf said:
I'm glad this thread has returned to the frontpage and I've found it! I've done some work on a timeline, but I keep running into the problem of the POD.

Namely - a more successful Vinland colony leads to European diseases spreading in the Americas all the way back in 1000. Thus, by the time Europeans re-arrive in 1492, the continent(s) already have some degree of resistance to disease. Native Americans and Europe are left on more equal footing.

However, I have no clue if this makes sense, and I can't personally judge if the POD *would* lead to a more disease resistant Americas. Or maybe it would, but would butterfly so severely recognizable structures like the Haudenosaunee wouldn't even exist? Dunno. Looking for feedback!

I think, while somewhat resistant because of how diseases could evolve in North America, it might be similar to what the Europeans bring over in the 1400s, it won't be the same strains as say, the English, so I can see there still being deaths. But I wonder if maybe the Europeans could bring back new strains that they aren't resistant too that evolved in North America? Does that make sense?

Godot · Jul 16, 2022

Odinson said:
I think, while somewhat resistant because of how diseases could evolve in North America, it might be similar to what the Europeans bring over in the 1400s, it won't be the same strains as say, the English, so I can see there still being deaths. But I wonder if maybe the Europeans could bring back new strains that they aren't resistant too that evolved in North America? Does that make sense?

I'm mostly thinking of smallpox, though I admit I'm not sure how many strains of that were floating around at the time. Further, there weren't really infectious diseases to spread back the other way, minus syphilis.

Arkenfolm · Jul 16, 2022

Assouf said:
I'm mostly thinking of smallpox, though I admit I'm not sure how many strains of that were floating around at the time. Further, there weren't really infectious diseases to spread back the other way, minus syphilis.

This gets brought up a lot but it isn't really plausible to the degree you're imagining given the way epidemic disease works. Basically, Iceland and Greenland were fairly free of disease (including smallpox) until the end of the Middle Ages. Further, the long travel time to the New World acts as a natural quarantine for all but a few diseases (ones with long incubation period plus long period of infectiveness) so in the end I don't think you'd get much more than chickenpox/shingles, mumps, and whooping cough transmitted by humans. Further, you have the factor that because of relative lack of trade and lack of dense population, the disease wouldn't become endemic like smallpox was in Europe and Africa. We see this in remote parts of the Old World, like in Siberia and certain parts of Africa, the people suffered just as heavily from epidemic as New World natives did.

That said, just a few epidemic diseases in the New World might have huge consequences since those would be removed from the long list of plagues Europeans brought and societies would have a better social response to disease.

Pre-Columbian Native American cultures, PODs and alternate histories discussion

Recent threadmarks

Petike

Petike

Learn a language for free

Vinization

Petike

Vinization

Petike

Vinization

Vinization

Vinization

I'tikaf

Learn a language for free

I'tikaf

Kerney

Petike

Arkenfolm

Arkenfolm

Petike

Godot

Odinson

Godot

Arkenfolm

Recent threadmarks