If they will not meet us on the open sea (a Trent TL)

Saphroneth

Banned
On a different topic, has the good Dr Gatling been up to anything interesting in the Union? Even if he hasn't been working on the weapon that bears his name, there's still a lot of interesting stuff he could be doing, like his tractor designs and the like :)
At the moment he's still a bit focused on what amounts to an attempt to produce a weapon with the firing properties of the pom-pom well before it's actually technically feasible. He's likely to give up at some point, though.
 
I find the idea of ten aimed rounds a minute being the maximum with a magazine unlikely
For someone who's completed their training, certainly - a trained infantryman should be able to fire a 30-round magazine empty in a minute using only aimed shots - that's why I was comparing it to someone just starting their training. It's the fact that these rifles are quite new technology, without a magazine, that makes the 10/min impressive, IMO.
the aim here is to break the enemy, not kill them, and volume of fire is as important as accuracy
That's a very valid tactic, and only needs shots to be aimed generally at the enemy, which is of course much easier. The same tactic was used OTL for centuries (e.g. Welsh longbowmen).

p.s. still enjoying the TL - thanks for all the work!
 

Saphroneth

Banned
It's the fact that these rifles are quite new technology, without a magazine, that makes the 10/min impressive, IMO
Oh, indeed - the Snider is cutting edge for the time. The 67th have had theirs for some months, which has given them time for lots and lots of reloading drill, and of course they're already trained to fire aimed individual shots.
 
10 August (11:20)

As British troops land on Morris Island, one of the sandbank islands forming the southern edge of the entrance to Charleston Harbour, the local militia commander (Dunovant) determines to attack their beachhead before they have become fully established.
In addition to his own 12th SC Infantry, he also has the 5th and the 17th - recently recruited or re-upped, these total three thousand men as disease and desertion has not yet had time to reduce their ranks.
Around four hundred of the force have had rifle training of the quality given by Cleburne, the rest are fairly typical for the quality of an average infantryman of the late American War.

Double-timing along the coast just inland, the South Carolina troops are sighted by the southern picket at about six hundred yards and the alarm goes up.
It is a relatively vulnerable time for the British landing, as only one battalion has yet landed (the 67th regiment of foot) and of these about half are facing Fort Wagner in case it turns out to still be able to fire on them, while the naval situation is confused due to the effort involved in landing one of the big 110-lbers intended to set up a British battery on Cummings Point.
However, Dunovant discovers that there is bad news as well - the 67th have reequipped with the Snider-Enfield, and they have had enough time to train with it.


The first rifle fire begins from the British pickets at 550 yards range, and it is apparent to the most experienced SC troops that something is up - in the first place, the British riflemen seem to be lying down, and in the second place there seem to be an awful lot of them.
Making a count of the shots fired over the space of thirty seconds, Dunovant assures his men there can't be more than three or four hundred of them.

In fact, this is just the 1st company. They are firing measured shots at long range to whittle down the South Carolina troops, while behind them 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th companies - the entirety of the battalion that is on the southern flank - form into four spaced company lines behind a sandy hillock.
Casualties mount as the Carolinan troops close in, with each British rifleman having the time to fire about twenty shots as the Confederates move forwards, and by the time the forces are 200 yards apart the Confederates have taken well over a hundred casualties on what - against Federal troops - would be an approach march. The Confederate sharpshooters have inflicted some casualties themselves, but firing prone has been giving the British an advantage.
At two hundred yards the Confederate infantry accelerate to a trot, preparing for their charge - at which point, to a trumpet call, the 1st company withdraws.
It is at this point Dunovant realizes something is badly wrong. He can only see perhaps ninety British troops retreating, and - far worse and more worrisome - they are retreating according to a plan.
It is at this point that four hundred British riflemen come over the hillock, in a double-thickness firing line with gaps to allow 1st company to withdraw through them. According to the doctrine subscribed to by the commander of the 67th, the rapid rate of fire of the Snider-Enfield is best used for a concentrated burst of accurate fire at short range. This is one reason why only 1st company was engaged at first - the smoke they have produced is relatively minor, while only 1st Company's rifles have been dangerously heated or jammed by repeated rapid firing.
As the Confederates close to a hundred and fifty yards, more orders go out. The first rank falls prone, the second kneels. The rifle muzzles come up, and there is a slight quiver as they pick their targets - then the 67th Regiment of Foot opens fire.

The results are devastating. All of these men have the range, most of them are veterans who have no particular psychological problem with shooting to kill, and they are able to fire ten aimed rounds per minute.

Within two minutes, eight thousand rounds have gone downrange, and the militia charge has disintegrated into knots of men falling back, or running, or trying to find cover and return fire with their relatively slow and clumsy muzzle-loaders. Or, as is quite common, simply dead or badly wounded.

Meanwhile, the first Armstrong 110 pounder lands on the beach, ready to be dragged to Cummings Point.


This engagement is often seen as the prototypical one for British rifle doctrine of the late 1860s and the 1870s, though this is a considerable simplification.

Ouch!
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Yes, ACW quality troops (who haven't had a fight in a year or more) versus breech-loading rifles manned by well trained regulars is... not good news for the militia.
Sorry for posting the whole note, I've not got used to the new format!
If you highlight a small section of a post you can quote just that bit by pressing Reply or Quote on the little dialogue which appears next to the highlight.
 
If you highlight a small section of a post you can quote just that bit by pressing Reply or Quote on the little dialogue which appears next to the highlight.

Now that is useful, I'm usually replying on a phone and cutting a full post down to just the bit you want to comment on is difficult.
 
Going a couple of pages back Saphroneth what do you think about the Childers and Cardwell reforms? To me the abolition of flogging, the end of purchase, creation of useful reserves and two battalion regiments all seem fairly sensible.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Going a couple of pages back Saphroneth what do you think about the Childers and Cardwell reforms? To me the abolition of flogging, the end of purchase, creation of useful reserves and two battalion regiments all seem fairly sensible.
Going through the components you mention, drawing on occasion from past discussion with Robcraufurd:

1) Abolition of flogging. This is one of those things which is a good idea, but which isn't as much of a reform as it sounds as the system already heavily restricted flogging - it was kind of the last-resort punishment.

2) End of purchase. Much like the Duke of Cambridge notes, this has the purpose of a good-behaviour bond.
In isolation, getting rid of it is a good idea, as it means the officer corps is theoretically open to a broader base of society (i.e. those who could not actually afford purchase) - but the thing is, promotions for cause were already exempted from the requirement to purchase, it served the automatic function of being a pension for officers (they sold their commission) and everyone who attained a commission through purchase already had to pass exams.
The real bugbear, however, is that it abolishing it was quite expensive. This is a problem if you're trying to cut costs in the military, as Cardwell was doing, as it means you have to get really sweeping with cost cutting.

3) Creation of useful reserves.
The reserves is a tricky thing, because part of the principle behind the reserve system is that it be possible to mobilize a large additional force in time of emergency.
This has both pros and cons - but the chief problem the reserve system as originally considered has is that it reduces the service time. Part of what made the British Army of the 1860s the buzz-saw it has been in this TL is that the average soldier (counting re-enlistment at the end of the first stretch) served for an average of seventeen years, meaning that the average battalion's regulars are seven years or more in the job - while the reserves system leans far too heavily on younger men for the active duty force and low-service-time men for the reserves.
This also points something out - Britain is an empire. Right now in the TL there's garrison forces spread all over the shop, plus three wars going on at once (New Zealand, South Carolina and to some extent Japan) and in the past few years there's been Trent, India, Crimea, China and Persia - and there's an expedition to Afghanistan percolating through the Imperial bureaucracy.
The point is - reserves work best if you expect to fight a very dangerous war in tight time constraints. The British expect to be more or less continually fighting brushfire wars, for which you need long service regulars simply because men who join up at the minimum age won't be eligible for overseas service for several more years... and if you've got short service, then you can only send them out for a couple of years anyway.
Robcraufurd has at times done pieces on the Cardwell reforms' problems, you can search for Cardwell under his name on this site and find plenty on this aspect in particular.

4) Two battalion regiments.
This is related to the above, in that it's linked to the short service idea. Under Cardwell, one battalion serves abroad and the other stays at home training recruits. As such, every year the home battalion is stripped of its best men: when it's called on to serve in a war, therefore, it has vast numbers of men unfit for service which it has to slough off and replace with reservists.


Essentially, the Cardwell reforms are really kind of problematic for the kind of war the UK was expecting to fight, and also had rather dire consequences for the status of the army as a respectable occupation.
Under Cardwell's short service, men about 25 years old discharged onto the job market with no useful skills, resulting in a chronic problem of soldier's unemployment; under the older long service system, the average man re-upped and served in the army until his late thirties or early forties, after which point he had a pension to support him.
If the reforms had been aimed at the kind of army that the UK actually needed, I think they would have worked rather better. Instead it tries to fit a Prussian square peg into a British triangular hole.
 
creation of useful reserves and two battalion regiments all seem fairly sensible.
Two battalion regiments sound OK, until you have a crisis overseas- at which point it invariably turns out that your home battalions are on too low an establishment, that some of the soldiers are medically unfit, that even more are too young to go overseas, that the ones who are old enough were supposed to be sent to the foreign battalion as a standard reinforcement draft in a few months time; that this doesn't qualify as an 'emergency' for the purposes of calling out the reserve, and that financial pressure means the reservists haven't received refresher training since they left the army anyway.

It's all fixable, of course, but once you've spent the money on depots for two-battalion regiments it becomes very tempting to patch over the cracks instead of fully overhauling the system.

it means the officer corps is theoretically open to a broader base of society (i.e. those who could not actually afford purchase)
If Cardwell had really wanted to open it up to a broader base of society, he would have had to increase pay and/or crack down on mess bills. Even after the abolition of purchase, you couldn't live in most regiments without a private income of some sort. What I think he was hoping for was an officer corps drawn from broadly the same social classes, but one in which officers passed almost all their careers in the same regiment, where real incompetents could be weeded out, and where there wasn't resentment and manoeuvring every time a position became vacant.
 
Last edited:
On another topic, what's happened/ing to Andrew Carnegie ITTL? OTL, he was involved with the telegraph and railways for the Union, IIRC, with his steel investment coming after the ACW.
Similarly, will the rise of Rockefeller be affected adversely ITTL? He hired 'substitute soldiers' to fight instead of him, OTL, and I don't see why that would change ITTL, but the USA's ability to subsidise the oil price, which helped him somewhat, might be more limited than OTL.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Carnegie's not had nearly the same degree of "start" so would not take off as much as OTL. Rockefeller might well make his fortune, though not so much of one.

One interesting one is DuPont, who has been basically destroyed by the Trent War - his purchase of large quantitites of saltpetre didn't come through (prevented from leaving British ports by the British) until the gunpowder price had plummeted.
 
Reichstag report on Prussian Army

Saphroneth

Banned
Digest of report to Reichstag on the state of the army


1) The army's cost has increased since last year.
2) Mobilization exercises in individual provinces have shown a general increase in speed as the rail timetables have been worked out.
3) Rail timetables have now been determined for various contingencies - defending to the North, East, South, West and various combinations thereof.
4) The artillery arm is quite satisfactory, though more heavy siege guns would be preferred. Krupp is working on these.
5) The cavalry needs some significant reform, chiefly in the matters of provision of mounts. While the current system provides sufficient horses, it does not allow for nearly enough spares and the horse artillery needs larger teams.
6) Regular rifle practice is good.
7) Reservist rifle practice has been gaining in popularity. Request to the Reichstag for permission and funding to host Landwehr rifle competitions, with gradated bonuses for good accuracy.
8) Manoeuvres have demonstrated the need for Regulars to go along with the Landwehr. A long debate takes place as to at what level Regular-Landwher intermixing should take place, with the most radical being squad level! (i.e. regular noncoms and officers for every single mobilized squad, no all-regular squads.) This is considered at least one step too far by almost everyone.
9) To aid unit cohesion, recommendation is made for the calendar to be amended. Cycled refresher courses should now take ten months of the year, with the other two months incorporating very large scale manoeuvres.
10) Request for funds for further development of the Dreyse needle gun, owing to concerns over long range accuracy and the imperfect quality of the seal.
11) Recommendation for one extra battery per mobilized division; this is accepted with little debate.
12) Each Regular regiment to form multiple lists of who to mobilize, depending on degree of mobilization. The idea here is to cream off the best of the linked Landwehr for any large field army, and the rest to form garrison divisions and the second line.
It is felt that a field army of upwards of 400,000 could be supplied by this means, of which roughly half would be regular infantry and the other half would be high quality Landwehr, and still allow for another ~200,000 or so for garrison work and line of communication - though of course forty divisions could not be supplied all at once in one place. In the event of a surprise attack then full mobilization would produce ~600,000 line troops and no garrison troops, minus whichever regions are unable to fully mobilize.

The overall picture is one of optimism - the army's funding increase is a relatively minor source of friction as much of it is going towards paying the Landwehr, and ironically enough a lot of the money being paid out is thus going on things which are taxed and thus cycling back into governmental coffers.
Bismarck feels this is all far too feel-good and wishy-washy; Frederick III, on the other hand, considers it all to be working rather well. The army has influence, but not control; the people feel enthusiastic, but not militarist; and both the Russians and the French are far too busy with their respective incidents to actually be any sort of threat while his army trains up. (The other German states are too small to worry him.)
 

Saphroneth

Banned
A couple of the things that could see attention in future, from OTL:

1 - Napoleon III considered buying Krupp guns for the French army. OTL the French army didn't like the idea, but perhaps they might consider some good French rifled breechloaders from Le Creusot... after all, the French navy has them and so do les anglais. (Or just Buy Krupp TTL.)
2 - Civilian control of the Prussian military. Might be an important psychological step.
3 - The locomotive torpedo. The idea's coming along, but it might see more urgent development in multiple areas.
 
ITTL:
The Sound of Music is a 2000-word poem written by Georg Wittmann (1886-1937), son of Prussian immigrants to the Confederate States of America. Telling of the slow onset of deafness in the famous composer Ludwig van Beethoven, it is considered to be one of the finest English-language poems of the early 20th century, though the use of uneven meter and his movement from euphony to increased use of caesurae (meant to symbolise the composer's struggle with his loss of hearing) make it a difficult poem to read, loved and hated in equal measures by poetry students.

[/thread-derail]
 
Top