Saphroneth
Banned
Ah, okay, I've been checking my original source and I did indeed make a mistake - I missed out the K from "Creek" on the old map!
Editing.
Ah, okay, I've been checking my original source and I did indeed make a mistake - I missed out the K from "Creek" on the old map!working my way back towards the east, I was struck by the far smaller size of the Seminoles section of the reservation as contrasted with that of the Cree. They are fewer in number, of course, and seemed glad to see my party...
How did he make it up to the Hudson's Bay Land
Indeed. This is a cultural norm that has changed IOTL, too. I don't see very much of the traditional anti-standing army sentiment left, as the US very much has a standing professional military. Obviously the drivers of that change are different ITTL than IOTL, but I think it's still likely to change. The endpoint will be interesting though, as the OTL lesson of the Civil War was that militias aren't really a viable option for modern wars. And the result was the creation of a system that became the modern national guard structure. ITTL that lesson has been learned differently. Saphroneth has written a little about this, but I think it's highlyAs has been noted, cultural 'norms' can change over time - I wonder if this will be one of them.
The OTL USA hasn't lacked for charismatic leaders, but equally its leaders were generally good (and sometimes excellent) at realpolitik, which would argue against them advocating revanchism too strongly. I just can't see TTL USA (strongly democratic, liberal by 19th C standards, economically potent, generally 'one of the good guys') succumbing to the allure of a "we were betrayed, pick up your guns and let's get them" sort of leader. Public statements along the lines of "we need to be able to protect ourselves against the perfidious British" are a different matter, but actual military action? I don't think so - but that's just my opinion.
I'm really not sure that's the case, the militia was still awful in the 1890s and the reforms which turned it into the National Guard didn't come about until the early 20th century.OTL lesson of the Civil War was that militias aren't really a viable option for modern wars. And the result was the creation of a system that became the modern national guard structure.
3. The longer term trajectory of the Confederacy. From OTL we know that much of the south later had significant value due to oil wealth, but that's not going to become significant until 1895-1910ish. And we've got a lot of factors with potential to play to the Confederacies' determent in the meantime... the dominance of cotton (between first the Union blockade and the 'current' conflict between the Rebels and the Poms alternate sources will be sought, possibly badly knocking down the South's revenue in the 1870s and 80s); the ongoing (well deserved and likely increasing) stigma arising from slavery (I severely doubt the South would consider abolition for at least a generation post-war); generally limited industrialization; existing breaches between the plantation owners and 'poor' whites (wonder if that could actually drive emigration from the CSA to USA...); lack of development of inter-state infrastructure due to various hardline states'-rights nuttyness. Hell! Ongoing issues from those will likely see any oil boom drastically cut back... if not turn the Confederacy into an out and out Banana republic (heh, that could be funny... Florida or Texas as the target of filibustering instead of various Central American states...). It could very well be that ITTL a Yankee's opinion of the South circa 1900 will be less grumbling about lost territory and more "I'm glad we're rid of that cesspit"...
Not so much, actually - at least, the Confederacy did see that coming. They explicitly denied the right of secession, since their argument was that secession was not explicitly denied in the US constitution.The other elephant in the room is that states in the Confederacy will have the established right to secede.
The other elephant in the room is that states in the Confederacy will have the established right to secede.
So, when there is a disagreement between a state and the Confederate government, the state can simply leave.
Imagine Texas seceding...what happens to the new states/territories west of it when they no longer share a contiguous country with states to the east?
The CSA is an intentionally weak government, held together by the exigency of the external USA threat during the ACW.
How much will its states be willing to cooperate and contribute beyond the national defense level?
Its an interesting experiment in local vs. national governance.
Most immigration will be into the remaining USA as, similar to OTL, that's where more wealth and opportunity lies.
Will states in the USA also see a precedent that they can secede?
What happens when a USA state decides to test this?
As for the USA getting along with the Confederacy, Turtledove's general trajectory in the How Few Remain / World Wars series seems most plausible.
Whenever Europe fights a world war, most likely so to will the USA & CSA since they're unlikely to steer clear of entangling alliances.
I don't think that will necessarily be a problem, any more than states seceding every time there's a tax rise is a problem in OTL's United States.
Plus, even if a Southern state does get annoyed at the central (confederal?) government, there's a very compelling reason for them not to secede -- namely, the large, powerful, probably unfriendly and potentially outright hostile country just to the north of them.
But in OTL USA we have the precedent that states don't have the right to secede. Its called the ACW.
Not quite accurate. The Union held that the lack of right to secede was implicit, the Confederacy explicitly established it.The CSA, following the precedence of federal law, now Confederate law, have the self same precedence that no State can secede from the Confederacy ........
Not quite accurate. The Union held that the lack of right to secede was implicit, the Confederacy explicitly established it.
Frankly, I expect a constitutional amendment to make it explicit that a state may not secede will be added in the Union - or, at any rate, will be floated as an idea.
BUT.......
The USA determines no state can secede.
The Southern states, however, did. And by determined means, ensured that independance.
The problem now is seen in two parts:
1. The Union still determines no State can secede, however there is now a precedence with the various CSA States that have seceded.
2. The CSA, following the precedence of federal law, now Confederate law, have the self same precedence that no State can secede from the Confederacy ........
Oops.
Accepted, I hoped I was heard as talking of the situation in this alternate place.If you look back you'll see that I was referring to OTL USA, because the previous poster was making a statement about actual OTL, not ATL in reference to OTL.
For all we know, there may be nothing remotely resembling Doctor Who.This and the other become confusing with time, and alternate space, TARDIS needs another meaning in this timeline! Who said that?
Accepted, I hoped I was heard as talking of the situation in this alternate place.
Perfectly understandable. Someone was probably counting trees for a nice orderly handover.
Perfectly understandable. Someone was probably counting trees for a nice orderly handover.
The Seminoles and the Cree both had areas in Indian Territory.
Given how the Southerners thought ,Native American troops will be used in human wave attacks against automatic weapons, because they're expendable.That's not actually their view, on this one - rather, it's still racial prejudice, but they feel that the Indians (while clearly not able to adequately fight in a formal battle or to handle logistics) are actually better at skirmishing and general scouting and hence useful that way. Racism doesn't just mean assuming everyone's uniformly crap at everything if they're not white.
'Slaves cost money. Use up the [Irish/Germans/Mexicans/Welsh/poor/Catholics/Abolitionists/Liberals]*"'More a job for black slaves if anything.