Henry VIII dies in 1536

[calvin1417]

So is now that Henry Percy has a son and is less bitter would he try to get back his southern estates and reastore his inhertence to the point it was when he inherited?

1. Charles Brandon (b.1537)

Pros: Ensures the Lady Elizabeth's dignity but keeps her from actually rising too high. Probably good looking. Not related.

Cons: Father was not a fan of Anne Boleyn, thus would probably not want his son married to her daughter. No real title to provide a daughter (even illegitimate) of the King. Stepmother won't be a fan either.​

2. Henry Brandon (b.1535)

Pros: Raises her to the title of Duchess in the future, to the benefit the royal dignity. Probably good looking. Not related.

Cons: Father was not a fan of Anne Boleyn, thus would probably not want his son married to her daughter. Stepmother won't be a fan either.​

3. Edward Courtenay (b.1527)

Pros: Provides her a title. Very minor relation. Apparently handsome.

Cons: Too close to the throne, with a claim that would only benefit from a match with Elizabeth.​

4. Geoffrey de Vere (b.1523)

Pros: No claim to the throne. Seemingly no ambition.

Cons: No title. No income. A little old for her.​

5. John Fleming (b.1529)

Pros: Scottish. Related to the King but no claim to either Throne. Not related to Elizabeth.

Cons: His elder brother James is heir at this point, and is quite seriously engaged to Lady Barbara Hamilton. If events do not go as OTL, then he will have no title and no way to provide for Elizabeth.​

6. George Gordon (b.1533)

Pros: Scottish. Related to the King but no claim to either Throne. Not related to Elizabeth. Same age. Loyal to the crown and, later, will prove a capable commander in battle.

Cons: Elder brother John will not be executed as OTL, thus no title to give Elizabeth. However, this brother seems to have been the treasonous sort, so other reasons for death may happen.​

7. James Hamilton (b.1532)

Pros: Heir to Scotland and thus would allow the Anglo/Scottish union to continue. Handsome. Not related to Elizabeth.

Cons: Closeness to the throne means that there is the possibility of an uprising later.​

8. Henry Hastings (b.1535)

Pros: Wealthy with a good title.

Cons: Protestant. Not liked by Mary. Close enough to the throne to be considered a possible heir at one point​

9. Thomas Howard (b.1536)

Pros: Future Duke of Norfolk. Catholic.

Cons: Known to be ambitious. Related.​

10. Thomas Percy (b.1528)

Pros: Heir to a high title. Irony that Anne Boleyn's daughter married the man who has the same title that Anne couldn't. Good looking. Catholic.

Cons: Definitely wouldn't get along with Elizabeth and may actually push her away from Catholicism.​

11. Edward Seymour (b.1539)

Pros: Rich. Catholic.

Cons: His title to which he is heir to is only Viscount Beauchamp, as was his father had in 1536, which would be seen as too lowly for her. Six years younger than her. Family is antagonistic to her.​

12. James Stewart (b.1531)

Pros: Connected to the King of Scots without a claim to the throne. Ambitious and will be raised Catholic but would definitely be interested in Protestant teachings.

Cons: Mary will NOT like the idea of her sister marrying her husband's bastard son. No title at this point.​

13. George Talbot (b.1528)

Pros: Leanings toward Protestant teachings, but can be outwardly Catholic. Rich.

Cons: Currently betrothed to Gertrude Manners.​

14. Thomas Butler (b.1531)

Pros: Catholic. Irish, which will keep her away from court. Irony that the Boleyn and Butler lines finally are matched

Cons: Might be considered to lowly for her, if she needed a reason to object to the marriage.​

15. Barnaby Fitzpatrick (b.1535)

Pros: The symbol of Anglo/Irish peace.

Cons: Protestant. Even as a child was apparently antagonistic to Mary. Only Baron Upper Ossory, which would not be high enough for a King's daughter.​

16. Henry Stanley (1531)

Pros: Catholic. Married a semi-royal princess OTL.

Cons: Didn't get along with Elizabeth or his wife OTL.​

17. Robert Stewart (1533)

Pros: Connected to the King of Scots without a claim to the throne. Ambitious and will be raised Catholic but would definitely be interested in Protestant teachings.

Cons: Overly ambitious. Mary will NOT like the idea of her sister marrying her husband's bastard son. No title at this point.
​

My take: I really think either the Hamilton match or Butler match would work, if we can't get her to Denmark.

henry Percy now has a son so Thomas is not his uncles heir. Also is Edward Seymour really that rich by this point?

 

[Indigo]

Can I get an answer to:. Would Hastings be protestant in a court without H8's reform of the church?

I think Hastings' father was also Protestant (?) so that makes it more likely that he would be raised Protestant or at the very least have suspect ancestry from Mary's perspective (I.e. seem crypto-Protestant).

 

[desmirelle]

I think Hastings' father was also Protestant (?) so that makes it more likely that he would be raised Protestant or at the very least have suspect ancestry from Mary's perspective (I.e. seem crypto-Protestant).

Thank you, I needed more input on some of the choices for Elizabeth.

 

[desmirelle]

Henry Hastings has been removed due to suspicious correspondence intercepted between his father and the heretic Thomas wriothesley. No entries with a later birthdays of 1537 remain or will be entertained, Queen Mary's decision. Edward courtenay's parents have asked permission to betroth him to Jane Howard, daughter of the Earl of Surrey. She comes with an over-impressive dowry, as Surrey is trying to better position his son Thomas in the race for Elizabeth. So, scratch Courtenay (one of my faves, too!)

 

[Indigo]

And so the choice is further narrowed - For the remainder I actually looked at other peers to recently marry into the royal family in that time period for a comparison - giving us

Charles Brandon, 1st Duke of Suffolk - Mary Tudor 12 year age gap
Archibald Douglas, 6th Earl of Angus - Margaret Tudor (by now queen of Scotland) 0 year age gap
John Welles, 1st Viscount Welles - Cecily of York 18 year age gap
Thomas Howard, 3rd Duke of Norfolk - Anne of York 2 year age gap
William Courtenay, 1st Earl of Devon - Catherine of York 4 year age gap

Brandon and Welles are both notable for sudden elevations beforehand (and they are the only two with especially large age gaps) while otherwise I would look for someone heir to a duke/earl and anywhere from 0-4 years older than Elizabeth (so 1629 to 1633 most likely)

 

[desmirelle]

We've got the Brandon & the Gordon boys (elder boy will get her, so it's really Henry & John unless one kicks the bucket); Thomas Howard, whose father Earl of Surrey bought out the Courtenays); Thomas Butler of the Ormondes and Henry Stanley. Butler and Stanley were both born in 1531, and Howard is the youngest bar Charles Brandon the younger (1537). She's gonna be close in age to her husband; her sister wants a good chance for them to have a lot in common.

 

[desmirelle]

And so the choice is further narrowed ...Brandon and Welles are both notable for sudden elevations beforehand (and they are the only two with especially large age gaps) while otherwise I would look for someone heir to a duke/earl and anywhere from 0-4 years older than Elizabeth (so 1629 to 1633 most likely)

Let's face it, Charles Brandon was Lady Luck's favorite date....he got papal dispensations right, left, and center, got away with Henry's sister.....

 

[VVD0D95]

No doubtful

 

[Kynan]

Mary never liked the Howards, so they're out. Elizabeth's hand is going to be an honour and thus it'll go to one of Mary or James' supporters.

 

[desmirelle]

We'll see how Surrey can sing and dance, I think she'll like watching him schmooze and (Just for entertainment value) stretch it out a bit!!!

 

[desmirelle]

Can I get personal favorites - and why - from my audience? Brandon,, Butler, Gordon, Howard, and Stanley. Rank'em if ya wanna.

 

[desmirelle]

And for those of you keeping track of my computer problems. I got mine back only to find dad's had deleted my entire thumb drive....a slight delay while I reconstruct. I'm no charlie Brandon when it comes to lady luck!

 

[Kynan]

1- Butler
2- Brandon
3- Howard
4- Gordon
5- Stanley

 

[desmirelle]

Stanley's not getting much love from me, either.

 

[desmirelle]

1 August – 1 October 1539

It did not take Elizabeth long to decide that the education of a lady rather than a cleric could be fun, as well as educational. Before, her music lessons had only included “appropriate” music and no dancing. Although she’d picked up some dancing from the brief time the Howard girls were in the nursery, she was pleased to learn that dancing was included along with the needlework and protocols. She learned secular music on the virginals and lute now and decided that it wasn’t as bad as she’d thought it would be. It was helped by the attendance of Mary herself, once or twice a week – sometimes to observe, but sometimes to “help” by dancing with Elizabeth herself (usually the more stately dances, given Mary’s condition).


James was forced to return to Scotland at the end of September. A vessel under an English flag ran aground north of Edinburgh and was found to be full of French troops and equipment indicating their aim was not peaceful. A set of coded orders were found and decoded. Francis’ men were ordered to raid along North England and Scottish coasts, “to engage them so our endeavors might go unnoticed.”


The ambassadors at both Scottish and English courts appeared before separate monarchs. The English ambassador was told the same thing as the Scottish one: the landing, discovery of weaponry and men and the decoded orders. Both ambassadors denied their sovereign was capable of such perfidy and were given a fortnight to learn what they could of the matter. If the men were Francis’, he would have to answer for it on a field of battle. If not, the officers and men of the vessel would be hung as pirates and the ship and equipment seized for Scotland and England. The ambassador to England accused Mary of cruelty and heartlessness. She countered with that the men were either under orders from the French crown or not; if not, they were pirates sailing under false colors and would deserve the fate. The ambassadors were escorted back to their residences with the warning of “one fortnight.”

 

[Indigo]

I'd say-

1-Gordon
2-Butler
3-Brandon
4-Stanley
5-Howard

I'd put Gordon and Butler at the top from Mary's perspective because they both do a good job of isolating Elizabeth from a potential power base in England, and Gordon keeps her in Scotland still (relatively) under the thumb of Mary through her husband.

 

[desmirelle]

My computer is back and the stories updated.

Personally, I'm partial to Henry Brandon. But I admit it's because of his daddy. But..... I'm thinking Henry B is going to be Elizabeth's preference, not necessarily who she ends up with.

 

[desmirelle]

2 October – 31 December 1539

The meaning of ‘our endeavors’ was apparently an attempt at a naval taking of Calais. Repulsed by both Spanish and English ships, three French vessels were sunk. At the end of the fortnight, both ambassadors denied their sovereign had any responsibility for the ship found in Scotland, but the Scottish ambassador had no poker face. When standing in front of the men, after James had pronounced that all would hang if Francis I did not admit them to be his troops, the ambassador failed to repeat what he’d told the King: that Francis denied the men were his; but the ambassador attempted to work out a compromise for the lives of most of the crew. The captain would hang since Francis would not admit to his perfidy, but the rest of crew were eligible to be ransomed – provided their families could raise the money before the New Year. Anyone whose family did not raise the money would be offered five years service at the pleasure of their majesties James and Mary. The compromise was accepted, but the Ambassador was recalled, never to serve Francis again.


This pregnancy was difficult once Mary reached the quickening; she was ill continually, larger than either of her other experiences and the normal morning sickness remaining long after it had ended in her first two pregnancies. She worried that she was not going to survive it and wrote her will. James returned to England in late November and was also concerned. He called in a doctor, but Mary called in several midwives and was assured, after their examinations, that Mary was having twins. The superfluous doctor agreed with the midwives, who, upon seeing her swollen legs and feet, insisted she take to her bed until the births.


1 January – 1 March 1540

Mary and the twins survived their birth in mid-January, almost a month early. What surprised everyone was how hale and hearty Alexander and Robert were for being so early born. They’d screamed as soon as they’d come out, their eating and other bodily functions as normal as their elder siblings. What they didn’t want to be was parted. Any attempt to separate them for sleeping was met with yowling and screams; so they would be cribbed together until they were six months old.


Once churched, Mary was glad to be ruling again with her husband. They would be going to York for Easter and the ‘annual’ meeting of the four countries they jointly ruled. Charles V offered his son Philip once more for Elizabeth – to Mary’s dismay. She didn’t like saying no to her cousin, but was not comfortable wedding her half-sister out of England. James, after the discovery of a Lutheran conclave in London just before the new year, decided Mary was right about Elizabeth attracting reformist simply because of who her mother was, was the one who told Charles no – and why. Charles, to their surprise, agreed with them that for her own sake, she would have to remain in Mary’s kingdom (and James’ too, but it was obvious James’ name had been shoehorned into the letter).

 

[desmirelle]

2 March – 25 May 1540

The letter, intercepted before its recipient even knew it was coming, was clear: Mary’s attacks on her father’s church meant she was a rebellious and ungrateful daughter and, as such, forfeited her right to claim his crown. Plans needed to be made to ensure that Elizabeth could be secured and the faithful children of God could rid the country of Mary and her devil’s spawn offspring. It was clear from the contents that both writer and recipient had corresponded for a while. James had the letter copied, resealed and sent on its way.


While Edward Seymour was of a mind to just burn the letter; his wife had a cooler head. She told her husband in all likelihood, their majesties knew of these plans and if they did not, Edward could only profit from turning the letter over to them. Edward decided to take the letter himself, although his wife was sure merely sending it with a covering letter would do. He realized that he would have to explain some of the letter’s passages; something a covering letter could not do. He’d been foolish to dabble in the new learning and it was rebounding on him. He could only hope their majesties would understand his curiosity in something that many were looking into and forgive him. He wrote a letter to his sister Jane explaining his interest that way, hoping she could pass it on to her husband and the monarchs.


Jane was exasperated with her eldest brother. He was always this way, either looking into things he oughtn’t or letting things slide until it was too late (hence his annulled marriage to the Filliol woman); she was tired of explaining things for him. She had a toddler and a newborn (her daughter Katherine had arrived the day after her brother’s first birthday) and the last thing she needed was more drama from her brothers. On her husband’s advice, she turned the letter over to him for transport to the King – without a letter from her giving her opinion on what he’d written.


The best medicine for stressful times is laughter and when Thomas Seymour began hinting that he thought himself qualified to marry Elizabeth Tudor, James and Mary had it in plenty. They didn’t laugh to his face; but the idea could not even be hinted at in private without giggles and laughing until they almost cried. “He’s so subtle!” Mary had said during one laughing session and now the word subtle made them smile. They quickly attached him to the Papal Embassy and sent him on his way.


Edward Seymour’s explanations were weak at best, but could be plausible (per the Archbishop of Canterbury), so he was allowed to remain at court (where his mail could be more easily intercepted) and barred from writing anyone – including his brother Thomas – out of the realm.

 

[desmirelle]

26 May - 25 December 1540

Henry Percy, having battled back from what others had thought a certain death years earlier, succumbed to the unidentified illness on May 27th. He left behind an infant heir of 13 months and a widow six months along with what would be a second son, William (delivered on 12 August). Jane Percy would turn out to be a formidable woman, treating both boys as her own and raising them as well as running the estates of her late husband successfully – but she never returned to service at court.


The summer progress went well, the court travelled from London to Edinburgh. Their only shadow was the illness of James’ mother Margaret, who had travelled only throughout England and was currently a guest of the Duchess of Norfolk. She had apparently suffered a seizure and was having trouble with the left side of her body. Royal physicians went to her and decided that she was not to be moved. A letter dictated by her requested two things: that her marriage to Methven be annulled before she died so he would not inherit her estate and that the grandchildren be brought to her for visits. The latter request was no problem, although they spaced out the visits so as not to overtax her, while the former was the subject of much discussion between James and Mary. Finally, the Archbishop of Canterbury, after visiting her in September, took it upon himself to submit the petition for her after Lord Methven declined the Archbishop’s request that he come to England and visit his wife; telling the prelate that his wife and he were agreed to live apart and he had no received no safe passage. He also claimed that it was his right to live on her dower money and that she should live with him. James and Mary supported the request, even though they believed most of Margaret’s troubles were of her own making.


Mary was also enjoying not being pregnant. With four healthy children, she was glad to be able to enjoy her marriage (and husband) without a babe within. Christmas would be in Edinburgh, and Elizabeth was brought north along with the Prince of Wales for the celebrations. The younger trio and others were going to the home of the Duke and Duchess of Suffolk for the celebrations.


26 December 1540 – 30 October 1541

Elizabeth decided she would marry, after all. She decided she would marry Henry Brandon. She’d decided she couldn’t wed anyone she’d never met and she didn’t like little Thomas Howard (“too proud” were her words, oblivious to the irony).


The court moved back to York in March for the periodic review of intra-realm business. They remained through May and began the summer’s progress. Mary realized she was pregnant again during the progress. The July stop at the Suffolk estates found a heavily pregnant Jane Brandon entertaining a slightly less along Queen. They were about to leave when word reached them of Margaret Tudor’s death – of another stroke. The court went into mourning and the Scottish Queen was buried near her brother the English King.


The court was still in mourning in August when Thomas Wriothesley, his wife Catherine, and seven-month-old daughter Renee were found at his family’s home. (Their presence was reported by Sir Ralph Sadler, who at one time had been Thomas’ friend.) Thomas was burned as an heretic (despite claiming to have a revelation that the Catholic church was the only true church); but Catherine’s beheading would have to wait: she was pregnant again.


October brought great blessings for Charles Brandon: his wife delivered another son, William, and she survived childbed fever immediately following the birth. It was not good to James and Mary, she lost the daughter she was carrying.