Henry VIII dies in 1536

[VVD0D95]

Following the passage of the Second Succession Act, Henry VIII had effectively declared his daughters Mary and Elizabeth illegitimate and removed them from the succession to the throne, stating that he could by letters patent name his own heir should he die without legitimate issue. Henry VIII dies after a severe fall whilst out hunting one day in 1536 shortly after the act is passed. Who might he name as heir in this case?

 

[VVD0D95]

If the Duke of Richmond was still alive, is there a chance the boy would be named as Henry's heir? Is it more likely that there will be a succession war over the matter?

 

[desmirelle]

If he's dead, he cannot name an heir (sorry, one too many of those logic problems growing up).

Since no heir was named, what you get is civil war. One of the sides will be trying to put Mary on the throne. Whomever wins, Mary will be the prize. She'd be expected to wed the victor's choice. And the Tudor line is over.

 

[VVD0D95]

If he's dead, he cannot name an heir (sorry, one too many of those logic problems growing up).

Since no heir was named, what you get is civil war. One of the sides will be trying to put Mary on the throne. Whomever wins, Mary will be the prize. She'd be expected to wed the victor's choice. And the Tudor line is over.

Ah sorry, with regards to the naming of an heir, I thought it was implied, before finally dying Henry would name an heir. Unless you think the wounds from the fall would be bad enough to stop him speaking?

 

[VVD0D95]

If Fitzroy was still alive when his father kicked it, would he be considered an option for Henry VIII's successor?

 

[ranichi17]

Isn't Fitzroy universally acknowledged as illegitimate, though? At least Mary and Elizabeth have questionable legitimacy depending on which faction you ask due to the fact that Henry was married to both their mothers until Henners decided to annul it.

I think most would rally to Mary, who is already of age, unlike Elizabeth who's barely out of the cradle. Unless of course, they'd prefer to have a lengthy regency squabble.

 

[VVD0D95]

Isn't Fitzroy universally acknowledged as illegitimate, though? At least Mary and Elizabeth have questionable legitimacy depending on which faction you ask due to the fact that Henry was married to both their mother until Henners decided to annul it.

I think most would rally to Mary, who is already of age, unlike Elizabeth who's barely out of the cradle. Unless of course, they'd prefer to have a lengthy regency squabble.

Hmm true, though there was talk that Henry created the terms for the second succession act with legitimising or naming his bastard son as heir, though that might just be talk.

And okay interesting, so would Mary be crowned Queen with no opposition?

 

[Georgie Porgie]

Assuming that Fitzroy, Mary and Elizabeth are all "illegitimate" then the crown would pass to the eldest daughter of Henry VII, i.e. Margaret Tudor wife of James IV of Scotland or their son James V so creating the Stuart House a generation before it actually came to power.

 

[ranichi17]

Wait a minute, which part of 1536 are we talking about in the first place? Since I just remembered Fitzroy's already dead by the latter half of said year, at the 23rd of July, to be exact. Also, he's only 17 at the time, so he may or may not have a regency should someone put him on the throne, depending on whether 16 or 18 was the age of majority.

 

[desmirelle]

V - from your post, if Henry had not issued "letters patent" to name his own heir at the time of the accident, the succession would be open. Fitzroy is not an option because there are legitimate heirs who are, in fact, legitimate in all facts (even ignoring Fitzroy's extremely bad health). Mary is Henry's daughter and in 1536, she is 20 years old. However, given that her father has removed her from succession in writing, she'd have a battle. All those alpha males are going to think they can run the country so much better....that's why I think she might have to wed to get the support she needed (at home) to take the throne. (Marrying the cousin in Scotland, maybe? When did Henry cut out Margaret and her heirs from the throne?)

 

[VVD0D95]

Okay, so how's this sound:

Henry Fitzroy does not die in July, 1536 and instead is alive when the Second Succession Act is passed, his father then dies a few days afterwards from a hunting accident, though he does manage to issue letters patent. Who does he name as his heir: Mary, Elizabeth, Henry, or his sister Margaret and her children?

 

[Michael B]

Okay, so how's this sound:

Henry Fitzroy does not die in July, 1536 and instead is alive when the Second Succession Act is passed, his father then dies a few days afterwards from a hunting accident, though he does manage to issue letters patent. Who does he name as his heir: Mary, Elizabeth, Henry, or his sister Margaret and her children?

My view is that he would name Henry because he is a son. Whether all the magnates would support the name is another matter. After all Fitzroy was definitely borne out of wedlock rather than the king deciding later that his offspring in question had been borne out of wedlock.

 

[VVD0D95]

My view is that he would name Henry because he is a son. Whether all the magnates would support the name is another matter. After all Fitzroy was definitely borne out of wedlock rather than the king deciding later that his offspring in question had been borne out of wedlock.

Hmm very true, so would this lead to a succession war, as Henry Fitzroy is already married whilst Mary is not? Might we see James V getting involved?

 

[Kerney]

Frances Brandon Grey is the choice if the Scottish line is ruled out. Though I think they'd go with Mary, who would be fertile and be able to have a hand in her half sister's upbringing. If I were her I'd send her to a Nunnery.

England would remain Catholic. Mary would have had less of the mistreatment that helped to make her so bloody. So good times all around.

 

[VVD0D95]

Frances Brandon Grey is the choice if the Scottish line is ruled out. Though I think they'd go with Mary, who would be fertile and be able to have a hand in her half sister's upbringing. If I were her I'd send her to a Nunnery.

England would remain Catholic. Mary would have had less of the mistreatment that helped to make her so bloody. So good times all around.

Hmm interesting, so might we see a marriage between James V and Mary?

 

[desmirelle]

I can't see Henry VIII naming an illegitimate son as his heir. As I understand it, Fitzroy wasn't allowed to cohabit with his wife; this doesn't bode well for being king. H8 is not going to name a sickly young bastard as king - that would be a virtual guarantee of civil war - and perhaps a Spanish invasion in defense of cousin Mary. Also, she is the ablest and most likely candidate for leading the country and I could see the case being made for her to wed her cousin James (who was single in 1536). The man she did wed isn't old enough to marry, James is 4 years her senior; I can see that....then we don't have Elizabeth imprisoning her cousin for years before she works up the courage to have her beheaded.

What I find interesting is that H8 is allowed to name his successor but Edward is not; when he names his successor, his oldest sister comes along and throws her out of the palace. Says a lot about H8's strength of character: he's still running things years after his death!!!

 

[VVD0D95]

I can't see Henry VIII naming an illegitimate son as his heir. As I understand it, Fitzroy wasn't allowed to cohabit with his wife; this doesn't bode well for being king. H8 is not going to name a sickly young bastard as king - that would be a virtual guarantee of civil war - and perhaps a Spanish invasion in defense of cousin Mary. Also, she is the ablest and most likely candidate for leading the country and I could see the case being made for her to wed her cousin James (who was single in 1536). The man she did wed isn't old enough to marry, James is 4 years her senior; I can see that....then we don't have Elizabeth imprisoning her cousin for years before she works up the courage to have her beheaded.

What I find interesting is that H8 is allowed to name his successor but Edward is not; when he names his successor, his oldest sister comes along and throws her out of the palace. Says a lot about H8's strength of character: he's still running things years after his death!!!

Aha definitely, so we'd likely see James V and Mary marrying, thus bringing about a union of the crowns much earlier than before. Wonder what consequences this has for the reformation in Scotland and England, and whether they'd have any issue.

 

[desmirelle]

It would throw a major wrench into the "Auld Alliance", wouldn't it though? I'm sure Mary would pop out a couple of wee bairns (live, in addition to what seem to be the mandatory losses of the time). And in all probability, James would live longer married to Mary than to his French gals. (If I'm remembering correctly, didn't he die fighting the English?) {I think if Anne had been smart as she thought she was, she'd have tossed Mary to James herself and gotten rid of the girl the old-fashioned way: marrying her off. Katherine and the Pope could hardly complain of her being sent to be Queen of Scotland.}

 

[VVD0D95]

It would throw a major wrench into the "Auld Alliance", wouldn't it though? I'm sure Mary would pop out a couple of wee bairns (live, in addition to what seem to be the mandatory losses of the time). And in all probability, James would live longer married to Mary than to his French gals. (If I'm remembering correctly, didn't he die fighting the English?) {I think if Anne had been smart as she thought she was, she'd have tossed Mary to James herself and gotten rid of the girl the old-fashioned way: marrying her off. Katherine and the Pope could hardly complain of her being sent to be Queen of Scotland.}

Oh definitely. So the AUld Alliance might be fried, but that just makes it all the more interesting, and raises questions over who James's otl wives marry as well. And what sort of settlement the two come to as well as the succession for both kingdoms once either one dies

 

[desmirelle]

Madeline died almost as soon as she got there, so no big blip there. Marie of Guise....now, she's another matter. As to succession, that will depend upon the marriage contract. I don't see either country just letting that "little detail" sneak by. If they decide to merge the kingdoms, the question will be moot. If not, they're going to have the Ferdinand/Juana problem. I think they may decide (not at first, but say five or ten years down the line) to merge the countries. Then it will be inheriting as usual. Otherwise, you'll have a regent king/queen until the child comes of age.