Charles is actually pretty well aware of that since I wanted to get past that matter asap. The question will be about the other nobles or how he goes about it
Yet Another Roman Empire: The Latin Empire of Constantinople
- Thread starter AltoRegnant
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Honestly, this kinda reminds me of my Latin Empire HIP CK2 game.
except that one i started in 1260.
Because I'm a masochist.
I also wanted to test my Greek-Crusader Latin melting pot culture stuff.
except that one i started in 1260.
Because I'm a masochist.
I also wanted to test my Greek-Crusader Latin melting pot culture stuff.
Fyi Robert's arms were a red field strewn with golden ring crosses (http://www.hubert-herald.nl/INHOUD.htm) not the gold cross between crosses of his nephew Phillip of Courtenay. So if Robert is more successful than OTL then his arms will be associated with the Latin Empire of Rhomania not his nephew's.
the website doesn't seem to have a "Latin" or "Constantinople," and I'm not sure what other buzzwords might prompt something like what you describe, would you happen to have a PNG?
Latin Empire Map 1229
my current idea for how the administrative divisions wound up. Thessalonica was restored, albeit weaker and easier to manage- hence the Duchy of Larissa (which i retconned in when i realized the borders i gave thessalonica didn't really weaken it but having Robert expand his own territory seemed odd given the landgrabs he made)/ Haskovo's dotted lines are to indicate it's legal from the capital
Can you elaborate why you think that? Do you think they would need to rely on other Italian trading cities too?
Basically, venice has a stranglehold on the Aegean trade the latin empire needs and one of the members of the imperial council answered more to venice than the empire
Yeah they moved it in the last update.
Click B, then Byzantium, then Byzantine Arms, and the various Greek and Latin Rhoman banners and arms are shown with pictures.
Nice map! But I think that there are some issues:
1) Dividing Thessaly this way is a bit absurd: there was no relatively recent precedent of separating western Thessaly from eastern Thessaly iirc. Also, attaching the western half to Epirus is also a bit weird, as the mountain of Pindus would make it a bit difficult for the emperor's reresentative to rule this duchy effectively:
- If he resides in an Epirot city (Arta, if it has managed to recover somewhat from the sacking or Ioannina - although I don't think that they had become a rival centre of Epirus yet), then it is rather difficult to effectively govern those areas of Thessaly. I could see those areas coming under the effective control of local aristocrats, Greek and Latin alike and the Vlachs becoming de-facto autonomous (they supported the Despotate of Epirus when it moved to remove the Crusaders from Thessaly in the 1200s and 1210s and they weren't that supportive of Latin rule), especially if the emperor decides to turn his attention to Asia Minor. IOTL, the Despotate of Epirus only managed to effectively control Thessaly when it was under the rule of capable rulers and from the late 13th century onwards, Thessaly began drifting away from the Despotate and gradually falling under the control of local landowners and aristocrats.
- If he resides in Thessaly (Trikke for example, although I am not sure about its status in the early and mid 13th century), then it would be very difficult for him to exert control over the rugged, mountainous territory of Epirus and starting to fall under the control of local power players, especially its northernmost bits.
My idea: the emperor could attach Pelagonia and western Macedonia, alongside most of the Axios (Vardar) valley to the kingdom of Salonica (as a county or march of Vodena and a county or march of Skopje respectively) and in return, receive some of the easternmost territories of the kingdom (perhaps the territories east of the river Nestus). This would give the empire control over most of Thrace and the crown of Salonica would be compensated. Thessaly remains undivided and under Salonica's rule, but in return, the emperor receives the overlordship of the Duchy of Athens (iirc, Guy de la Roche sided with the emperor when Boniface died, so we could perhaps say that the duchy was in a legal limbo and Robert could perhaps convince the court at Salonica to relinquish its rights over it in exchange for Thessaly and perhaps some bits on the border between Macedonia and Epirus - and the nobles in Salonica wouldn't be able to do much to press such claims).
So we get: Skopje and the Axios Valley , Pelagonia and most of western Macedonia as well as Thessaly go to the kingdom of Salonica, Epirus, the rights over the duchy of Athens (and perhaps Euboea) and most of Thrace go to the Empire. Or the same, but with Thessaly becoming an imperial fief in exchange for the northern parts of Macedonia.
(a rough map of what I am saying; I have also included what the Venetians could pick up).
And feel free to comment!
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Looks good. I'll admit I don't really know too much about greek geography- an oversight in my research. If I'm understanding right, the second would basically be confiscating the kingdom but making Dimitri Duke of Macedon, right? Just wanna make sure I understand before I make a choice
I have maps!
Here's a very basic topographic map:
Well, I didn't think about reducing the status of the Monferrat family from royal to ducal. I think that this would be an unecessary affront to the house of Boniface, especially if the emperor achieves most of his objectives: Demetrius keeps the royal title and gets to rule a relatively compact kingdom which is perhaps larger than the one he inherited from his father. But at the same time, the emperor's position is strengthened, as he now controls most of Thrace (therefore he has a fairly large and prosperous province under his direct rule) and in exchange for all the gifts of territory he offers to the crown of Salonica, he manages strip the latter of its various dependencies in central and southern Greece, thus redressing the balance of power between the empire and its most powerful vassal (as now Salonica is still a fairly large and wealthy vassal but it doesn't control, directly or indirectly, most of the empire's European holdings).
About the geography question, it certainly played a role in drafting my proposal.
a second draft of the post crusade map based on @Tanaka did nothing wrong 's contributions. secondary imperial possesions like Haskovo and Epirus get a purple underline. and I wasn't sure what to call the split off duchy in the south, and "duchy of the Peloponnese" sounded weird so working title is Peloponnesia
I'm not sure if i want to call it Hellas, Elláda (french for Greece) or some variant of Rhomania; honestly all three would likely be used pretty often at this point
in time, I'm sure. in the 1200s, it was hard to do so without conflict. but constant crusading might be sufficient
Charles's entire existence from a writing perspective is to work on that, hence his interest in navies and wanting to get rid of the Venetians.
side note, what do you guys think of conflict emerging with the papacy as the empire expands due to controlling more of the pentarchy?
Call it Romanía. It's the name the locals call it, and in a way it's an assertion of Romanness and a Roman imperial identity for the mixed rulership population.
Just like my HIP game.
Starting from:
