Would love a POV chapter from the perspective of a regular person.
Yet Another Roman Empire: The Latin Empire of Constantinople
- Thread starter AltoRegnant
- Start date
It would be extremely interesting. I'd like to see how much society changed since the beginning of the latinokratia. Like, how the Romans see their relatively new french overlords? Do they still see them as foreigners? Also, the average person's perception of the recent events.
Can't wait for the next chapter. I think your Slice of Life chapter should focus on the soldiers of the Empire. Close enough to have a basic handle of the politics of the realm and far enough to have a more personal opinion about everyday matters affecting him.
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I mean, that's for good Purple dye. You can create shittier quality Purple by mixing red and blue eyes. (They'll wash and bleach unevenly and might change color with age but it'll still be Purple).Purple dye was extremely rare and expensive until the middle of the 19th Century, only coming from a few snail species off the coast of Lebanon. Even for the Latin Emperor, I'm not sure if purple dye would be feasible for their flags.
Tyrian purple - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Would the Cossacks still manifest here and would they be Orthodox or Muslim?. Would they just be an intermediate phase for absorption into the Crimean Tatars or there own thing?.
It is said that Cossacks were fleeing serfdom and arrived on the steppes, absorbed some Turkish customs and became semi-nomadic.
In TTL, Slavs are fleeing pro-Turkic settlement policies, many to Novgorod, I suspect many to the steppes as well. Fleeing pro-Turkic and pro-Muslim reforms, would they develop enough of a cultural disdain for that to retain Slavic and Orthodox identity. Would their population be large enough to absorb the more northern Ukrainian Steppe Turks than for those to absorb them by the current prestige of Islam and Turkic culture?.
It is said that Cossacks were fleeing serfdom and arrived on the steppes, absorbed some Turkish customs and became semi-nomadic.
In TTL, Slavs are fleeing pro-Turkic settlement policies, many to Novgorod, I suspect many to the steppes as well. Fleeing pro-Turkic and pro-Muslim reforms, would they develop enough of a cultural disdain for that to retain Slavic and Orthodox identity. Would their population be large enough to absorb the more northern Ukrainian Steppe Turks than for those to absorb them by the current prestige of Islam and Turkic culture?.
Oh, 4 historical tid bits in case you ever get to Ethiopia. @AltoRegnant
In 1428, Ethiopia sent a diplomatic mission to Aragon requesting an alliance. In the proposal, king Alfonso V would send craftsmen and his brother Peter to the African kingdom, where he would marry the daughter of emperor Yeshaq I. Tragically, the crew of 13 craftsmen perished on their way to Ethiopia, and the plan for alliance collapsed.
In 1534, Michael the Deacon travelled to Wittenberg and met with Martin Luther, a leader in the Reformation. During the meeting, the two compared the Lutheran Mass with that used by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and found that they were in agreement with one another. Michael the Deacon also affirmed Luther's Articles of the Christian Faith as a "good creed". As such, the Lutheran Churches extended friendship with the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.
It wasn't too uncommon for Ethiopians an Nubians to have Pilgrimages to European sites. When the 4th Crusade captured Constantinople in OTL, they met a Nubian King who had abdicated the throne after his reign to go for an late-life pilgrimage. We have other accounts of Ethiopians in Pilgrimage in Europe.
The Mamluks conquered Northern Nubia in 1272 and Vassalized the rest of it but according to the Crusaders, the Latins and Nubians held strong sentiments towards each other, while this is far from the height of the Crusades, could see the Nubians actively courting Romania.
By the late 1300s tho, Northernmost Nubia was probably majority or Plurality Arabo-Beja Muslim and upper Nubia ruled on and off by Muslims and Christians. And by 1324 with Makuria fragmenting, massive migrations of Arabs south is recorded. By the second half of the 15th century, Arabs had settled in the entire central Sudanese Nile valley, except for the area around Soba and The idea of uniting the Arabs against Alodia is said to have already been on the mind of an emir who lived between 1439 and 1459 who by around the turn of the 1500s, possibly in alliance with the Funj, conquered the Kingdom which itself had frgamented into largely Authonomous fiefdoms(the first of these to break off was it's northern most province in the 1320s).
Between late 10th Century and 12th Century, Makuria and Alodia had personal unions, probably on and off, maybe continuously. With a strong tradition of Personal unions among the SSA churches, what are the chances of an overseas Personal unions?.
In 1428, Ethiopia sent a diplomatic mission to Aragon requesting an alliance. In the proposal, king Alfonso V would send craftsmen and his brother Peter to the African kingdom, where he would marry the daughter of emperor Yeshaq I. Tragically, the crew of 13 craftsmen perished on their way to Ethiopia, and the plan for alliance collapsed.
In 1534, Michael the Deacon travelled to Wittenberg and met with Martin Luther, a leader in the Reformation. During the meeting, the two compared the Lutheran Mass with that used by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and found that they were in agreement with one another. Michael the Deacon also affirmed Luther's Articles of the Christian Faith as a "good creed". As such, the Lutheran Churches extended friendship with the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.
It wasn't too uncommon for Ethiopians an Nubians to have Pilgrimages to European sites. When the 4th Crusade captured Constantinople in OTL, they met a Nubian King who had abdicated the throne after his reign to go for an late-life pilgrimage. We have other accounts of Ethiopians in Pilgrimage in Europe.
The Mamluks conquered Northern Nubia in 1272 and Vassalized the rest of it but according to the Crusaders, the Latins and Nubians held strong sentiments towards each other, while this is far from the height of the Crusades, could see the Nubians actively courting Romania.
By the late 1300s tho, Northernmost Nubia was probably majority or Plurality Arabo-Beja Muslim and upper Nubia ruled on and off by Muslims and Christians. And by 1324 with Makuria fragmenting, massive migrations of Arabs south is recorded. By the second half of the 15th century, Arabs had settled in the entire central Sudanese Nile valley, except for the area around Soba and The idea of uniting the Arabs against Alodia is said to have already been on the mind of an emir who lived between 1439 and 1459 who by around the turn of the 1500s, possibly in alliance with the Funj, conquered the Kingdom which itself had frgamented into largely Authonomous fiefdoms(the first of these to break off was it's northern most province in the 1320s).
Between late 10th Century and 12th Century, Makuria and Alodia had personal unions, probably on and off, maybe continuously. With a strong tradition of Personal unions among the SSA churches, what are the chances of an overseas Personal unions?.
Oh, I forgot to add something, Ethiopia has a less strict, more lose and more complex view on Canon and being in communion with other Churches.
They for example have books like Enoch not because it is directly considered holy but because some OT or NT written quotes something in agreement with Enoch so it's being part of their Bible is based not on it itself being considered holy but on a book considered holy quoting it.(also Shepard of Hermas survived longer in church use in Ethiopia).
So Ethiopian Church can take more differences between theology with other church before declaring them schismatics, or even worse, Heretics.
The Ethiopian Church also may or may not have resumed getting it's Bishop from Egypt at this time, tho certainly so by 1600 but still remained very autonomous in it's doings (so Ethiopian Church and Lutherans were in Communion while the Copts weren't in communion with Lutherans even tho Ethiopian Church was officially a branch of and headed by a Copt).
finally working on the new chapter; i'm breaking it up into three, a common artisan from Constantinople, an Italian missionary in the levant with some ties to the government, and a soldier. any locales you guys want to explore? I'm trying to hit as many regions as I can
I wonder when the New World is discovered, we might see more successful colonization efforts by France. Could we see French Canada in the future? Can't wait for the next chapter. The POV chapters will be interesting.
I understand. Real life takes precedent, take all the time you need. Whatever you put out will always be fun to read.
Part Fourteen: The Common Folk
Life is diverse. This was true in England, Egypt, and in the Latin Empire. Thus, this chapter will focus not on the actions of the Imperial monarch under Charles III, but instead on some of the common people. The Crusader conquest that had established the Latin Empire was still fresh in the grand scheme of the long history of Greece and Anatolia, to say nothing of the many disparity parts of the world bound up in Constantinople’s fold. Naturally then, this chapter will look at people from all over the Empire, starting in Constantinople and moving to other provinces accordingly.
First is someone truly ordinary. Alexios Thrace was nothing special, merely a simple glassblower who made his living on the dock of Constantinople. Thrace, like most people in the capital at this point, was Catholic, due to the strong missionary efforts of Charles I, Constantine, Theodora, and Charles II. However, despite the catholization of the city, Greek was still the most common language, used by a majority of its citizens and those traveling through it. French was also used, especially in more newly constructed parts of the city, but for most people, it was a second language, used when dealing with ministers and government work, not when going about the day-to-day life of the city. A glassblower and artisan, Alexios spent most of his day working in and around the southern ports of the city, specifically the Harbor of Sophia, eager to sell to the merchants.
The merchant community of Constantinople had always been one of the more diverse in Europe and this was still true even after the Latin conquest. Nearly all of them spoke French of course, but the merchants were also the group most likely to be able to read it. This was for a few reasons: firstly, the Imperial law stipulated that official papers be printed in both French and Greek so that people could actually read the laws, meaning that most citizens of the empire had little reason to learn to read the language, though many still did, especially those going into the military, church, or government. However, the Empire only accepted a few languages as documentation for foreigners (specifically, French, Turkish, Arabic, and Hungarian ), meaning that tradesmen, like Alexios Thrace, needed to know most of these languages in order to effectively sell their wares.
While Thrace did not travel much at all, being a traditional artisan, his place at one of the larger ports in the city of the world's desire allowed him to experience quite the diverse pallet. Many merchants had rented quarters in the city on prior ventures or otherwise came to possess small homes, which allowed them or their families to make food they could not get in the french and greek dominated city. While meat production and thusly, consumption especially had gone into decline due to the changes in agriculture surrounding the Black Death, Constantinople remained one of the best places in the west to get affordable beef products. Thrace himself was fond of a Turkish/Tartarian dish involving marinaded goat meat put on a stick, though the spices used were more distinctly based in a greek variety, leading to some Turkish cooks to call it the “грек,” meaning the Greek Kebab.
Generally, education during this time was naturally limited to the wealthy, even in Constantinople. However, the Catholic Church was eager to bring the Orthodox heretics back into the fold of western Christendom and recently had begun to allow for education to be more accessible within the urban centers in the empire via grammar schools and monastic education centers. While Alexios himself had not attended one of these, learning what he had to while growing up on the job with his father, his three sons all attended Saint Baldwin’s Grammar School, the largest such institution in the southern side of the city, which in addition to the latin and catholic theology common in such schools, literacy, especially in French, was also encouraged. Of Alexios’s sons, while all three were prepared to become glassblowers like their father, it was presumed that at least one of them would go into the soldiery, either the army or the navy.
The military was generally regarded as the best scenario for a peasant. The Latin Empire was one of few places in medieval europe that had a professional force in any meaningful sense. The most professionalized of any part of the army was the cavalry. While most of medieval Europe required the mounted soldier to be of noble birth, the Latins were wealthy enough the state could host a large array of military horses, enabling the peasantry to enlist as cavalrymen. Of course, this was still very expensive, so one could not enlist and immediately be trusted as a rider. Broadly, as the army trained throughout the year, they would devote several weeks out of a quarter to cavalry training, and the most proficient would become mounted riders.
However, the infantry was also more standardized and professional than their typical counterparts, and it is here we meet Jean Papetier. Papetier was young by modern standards, only around his twenties, as most soldiers were. Born and raised in Athens, which many Frenchmen like his family called Aten, Papetier was currently stationed on the other side of the empire, in Trebizond. This was intentional. Every year, the governor of each province would send out calls for voluntary soldiers, who would make their way to the provincial capital- not exactly far for Papetier, who already lived in Aten- and these soldiers would be taken to another city for training before being deployed to various parts of the Empire. For those from Athens, it was Lamia, where they would spend three years, with about seven months during each of those years devoted to military training and the rest for agriculture and other common duties of the peasantry. There were also conscripts, but they were only deployed from certain provinces during war proper, and only as many as could be raised without causing too much famine.
After their training came deployment. While the Latins had a very robust system for amassing their soldiers and providing weapons of war, deployment was much less refined. Simply put, the emperor would determine which provinces were in need of reinforcement, and the newly graduated soldiers would be sent off to those provinces basically at random to meet with the units stationed there. In the case of Papetier, this had meant Trebizond, due to the proximity to Tartary, one of the main rivals of the Empire.
Much like the merchants of Constantinople, professional soldiers were expected to know and be literate in most languages common in the empire. For a common foot soldier in Trebizond, this meant French, Greek, and Arabic, as it was considered vital to keeping public order. To be frank, this was a soldier’s real job during this time, unless they were at war. While soldiers were based in provincial capitals, such as Trebizond for Jean Papetier, they were usually broken down into units of a few hundred in order to keep order in the outskirts of the provinces. In the case of Papetier specifically, his group was the largest in Trebizond, acting as frontier forces meant to stop a Turkish incursion in the event of raids or actual attacks. While trained in numerous forms of weapons, the typical soldier mainly carried crossbows and glaives, as well as a shortsword, though the latter was mainly used as a last resort or ceremonially.
Finally, the remainder of this chapter will discuss the life of Amerigo Russo, an Italian settler in Latin Syria. Russo, like many of the people the Empire sponsored, was a missionary and priest. In fact, he had a small church in Damascus, the capital of the province. Now, all priests of course knew Latin, and as a citizen of the Empire, Father Russo had learned his share of Greek, but in this particular province, Arabic was much more common than French. While there was indeed an Italian community in the area, by the nature of the Imperial attempts to convert it, Russo was not particularly involved in it.
Being a missionary, Russo worked with the governor of the province, Jean Stauros, in order to prompt Christendom within the region. Strictly speaking, he was subordinate to the Bishop of Damascus and the Cardinals, but Russo was a personal friend fo Stauros in a way that the bishops and cardinals weren’t, giving him more trust than the others. Helping this, Russo was more pragmatic than the others. He himself favored helping the Muslim poor and young rather than penalizing the practitioners and was willing to preach in Arabic as it was needed. Regardless, Russo was somewhat wealthy and willing to patronize local arts. One of his favorites was an Arabic painter, Osama Abbas. Abbas was a local talent, having done renditions of the Exodus and even of Constantine winning the battle of the Milvian Bridge. Despite his talents and his artful depictions of other religious events, he avoided those of early Islam, as he was still Muslim and did not want to depict Mohammad. Regardless, it was Abbas’s friendship with Russo that allowed him to continue his work despite his faith, as the man was old and not prone to public displays of faith, as well as the fact that Russo was able to argue that his works were worthy of respect and showed devotion to God.
Life is diverse. This is true no matter where and when you explore. While none of the people discussed in this chapter will be remembered, they all contribute to the tapestry of the empire. Alexios Thrace would die of old age, with his two remaining children and his seven grandchildren while a Priest helped him in his last moments, his last words being a simple prayer to see his wife again. Papetier would be one of the lucky soldiers to be able to become a simple farmer after his years of service, though he would eventually die childless. And while Russo and Abbas would not be regaled throughout history, those who knew them would smile and recall the missionary and the infidel being closer friends and patrons than many who shared more than a faith. The Empire, without its people, is nothing.
First is someone truly ordinary. Alexios Thrace was nothing special, merely a simple glassblower who made his living on the dock of Constantinople. Thrace, like most people in the capital at this point, was Catholic, due to the strong missionary efforts of Charles I, Constantine, Theodora, and Charles II. However, despite the catholization of the city, Greek was still the most common language, used by a majority of its citizens and those traveling through it. French was also used, especially in more newly constructed parts of the city, but for most people, it was a second language, used when dealing with ministers and government work, not when going about the day-to-day life of the city. A glassblower and artisan, Alexios spent most of his day working in and around the southern ports of the city, specifically the Harbor of Sophia, eager to sell to the merchants.
The merchant community of Constantinople had always been one of the more diverse in Europe and this was still true even after the Latin conquest. Nearly all of them spoke French of course, but the merchants were also the group most likely to be able to read it. This was for a few reasons: firstly, the Imperial law stipulated that official papers be printed in both French and Greek so that people could actually read the laws, meaning that most citizens of the empire had little reason to learn to read the language, though many still did, especially those going into the military, church, or government. However, the Empire only accepted a few languages as documentation for foreigners (specifically, French, Turkish, Arabic, and Hungarian ), meaning that tradesmen, like Alexios Thrace, needed to know most of these languages in order to effectively sell their wares.
While Thrace did not travel much at all, being a traditional artisan, his place at one of the larger ports in the city of the world's desire allowed him to experience quite the diverse pallet. Many merchants had rented quarters in the city on prior ventures or otherwise came to possess small homes, which allowed them or their families to make food they could not get in the french and greek dominated city. While meat production and thusly, consumption especially had gone into decline due to the changes in agriculture surrounding the Black Death, Constantinople remained one of the best places in the west to get affordable beef products. Thrace himself was fond of a Turkish/Tartarian dish involving marinaded goat meat put on a stick, though the spices used were more distinctly based in a greek variety, leading to some Turkish cooks to call it the “грек,” meaning the Greek Kebab.
Generally, education during this time was naturally limited to the wealthy, even in Constantinople. However, the Catholic Church was eager to bring the Orthodox heretics back into the fold of western Christendom and recently had begun to allow for education to be more accessible within the urban centers in the empire via grammar schools and monastic education centers. While Alexios himself had not attended one of these, learning what he had to while growing up on the job with his father, his three sons all attended Saint Baldwin’s Grammar School, the largest such institution in the southern side of the city, which in addition to the latin and catholic theology common in such schools, literacy, especially in French, was also encouraged. Of Alexios’s sons, while all three were prepared to become glassblowers like their father, it was presumed that at least one of them would go into the soldiery, either the army or the navy.
The military was generally regarded as the best scenario for a peasant. The Latin Empire was one of few places in medieval europe that had a professional force in any meaningful sense. The most professionalized of any part of the army was the cavalry. While most of medieval Europe required the mounted soldier to be of noble birth, the Latins were wealthy enough the state could host a large array of military horses, enabling the peasantry to enlist as cavalrymen. Of course, this was still very expensive, so one could not enlist and immediately be trusted as a rider. Broadly, as the army trained throughout the year, they would devote several weeks out of a quarter to cavalry training, and the most proficient would become mounted riders.
However, the infantry was also more standardized and professional than their typical counterparts, and it is here we meet Jean Papetier. Papetier was young by modern standards, only around his twenties, as most soldiers were. Born and raised in Athens, which many Frenchmen like his family called Aten, Papetier was currently stationed on the other side of the empire, in Trebizond. This was intentional. Every year, the governor of each province would send out calls for voluntary soldiers, who would make their way to the provincial capital- not exactly far for Papetier, who already lived in Aten- and these soldiers would be taken to another city for training before being deployed to various parts of the Empire. For those from Athens, it was Lamia, where they would spend three years, with about seven months during each of those years devoted to military training and the rest for agriculture and other common duties of the peasantry. There were also conscripts, but they were only deployed from certain provinces during war proper, and only as many as could be raised without causing too much famine.
After their training came deployment. While the Latins had a very robust system for amassing their soldiers and providing weapons of war, deployment was much less refined. Simply put, the emperor would determine which provinces were in need of reinforcement, and the newly graduated soldiers would be sent off to those provinces basically at random to meet with the units stationed there. In the case of Papetier, this had meant Trebizond, due to the proximity to Tartary, one of the main rivals of the Empire.
Much like the merchants of Constantinople, professional soldiers were expected to know and be literate in most languages common in the empire. For a common foot soldier in Trebizond, this meant French, Greek, and Arabic, as it was considered vital to keeping public order. To be frank, this was a soldier’s real job during this time, unless they were at war. While soldiers were based in provincial capitals, such as Trebizond for Jean Papetier, they were usually broken down into units of a few hundred in order to keep order in the outskirts of the provinces. In the case of Papetier specifically, his group was the largest in Trebizond, acting as frontier forces meant to stop a Turkish incursion in the event of raids or actual attacks. While trained in numerous forms of weapons, the typical soldier mainly carried crossbows and glaives, as well as a shortsword, though the latter was mainly used as a last resort or ceremonially.
Finally, the remainder of this chapter will discuss the life of Amerigo Russo, an Italian settler in Latin Syria. Russo, like many of the people the Empire sponsored, was a missionary and priest. In fact, he had a small church in Damascus, the capital of the province. Now, all priests of course knew Latin, and as a citizen of the Empire, Father Russo had learned his share of Greek, but in this particular province, Arabic was much more common than French. While there was indeed an Italian community in the area, by the nature of the Imperial attempts to convert it, Russo was not particularly involved in it.
Being a missionary, Russo worked with the governor of the province, Jean Stauros, in order to prompt Christendom within the region. Strictly speaking, he was subordinate to the Bishop of Damascus and the Cardinals, but Russo was a personal friend fo Stauros in a way that the bishops and cardinals weren’t, giving him more trust than the others. Helping this, Russo was more pragmatic than the others. He himself favored helping the Muslim poor and young rather than penalizing the practitioners and was willing to preach in Arabic as it was needed. Regardless, Russo was somewhat wealthy and willing to patronize local arts. One of his favorites was an Arabic painter, Osama Abbas. Abbas was a local talent, having done renditions of the Exodus and even of Constantine winning the battle of the Milvian Bridge. Despite his talents and his artful depictions of other religious events, he avoided those of early Islam, as he was still Muslim and did not want to depict Mohammad. Regardless, it was Abbas’s friendship with Russo that allowed him to continue his work despite his faith, as the man was old and not prone to public displays of faith, as well as the fact that Russo was able to argue that his works were worthy of respect and showed devotion to God.
Life is diverse. This is true no matter where and when you explore. While none of the people discussed in this chapter will be remembered, they all contribute to the tapestry of the empire. Alexios Thrace would die of old age, with his two remaining children and his seven grandchildren while a Priest helped him in his last moments, his last words being a simple prayer to see his wife again. Papetier would be one of the lucky soldiers to be able to become a simple farmer after his years of service, though he would eventually die childless. And while Russo and Abbas would not be regaled throughout history, those who knew them would smile and recall the missionary and the infidel being closer friends and patrons than many who shared more than a faith. The Empire, without its people, is nothing.
this chapter came out pretty short and was honestly really hard to write, but I'm actually pretty proud of it, all things considered. Let me know if you guys want to see more of this stuff.
Nice chapters, would like to see POVs from many other countries if possible. Maybe we can see of POV from France, Britain, Germany, or Tartaria? Keep up the good work. Can't wait to see the next chapter.
Update
been working on the next chapter recently, i was just swamped with some personal stuff. But, I'm curious, if I were to post a patreon for YARE and put chapters up early, and maybe some other stuff I'm not sure on yet, would anyone be interested?
I'll obviously have to build a backlog so it would take some time to set up, but after that my goal would be a chapter here every two weeks so as to bring some consistency
I'll obviously have to build a backlog so it would take some time to set up, but after that my goal would be a chapter here every two weeks so as to bring some consistency
Thanks for the update, if you want to make a Patreon, I say go for it if you feel it's best for you.
Thanks for posting an update on your schedule. I was looking for this TL and couldn’t find it. Saved to watch now.