Would the USA enter a Cold War with a victorious Nazi Germany after WW2?

[Emperor Norton I]

A big, big (BIG) thing is economics. Nazi Germany has just taken control of the Markets of the continent. It dictates trade, and can cut off trade that was once the realm of many different nations with the United States. It forms an entire power bloc, and said power bloc is also competitive to the United States. Just on economic terms, I think you have a Cold War.

 

[Rufus]

I think it’s inevitable. Liberalism is just as much of a revolutionary, universalist and liberationist ideology as communism was, whether liberals want to admit it or not. It sees itself as the ‘end of history’, and cannot coexist with fascism, just like it couldn’t coexist with communism.
However, a Cold War between liberalism and fascism should look quite a bit different compared to the OTL struggle with communism. I posted a thread earlier today about this very topic. Here’s what I said:

Scenarios where the Axis wins WW2, followed by a Cold War with the West (mainly the US), are fairly popular. But what I’ve noticed in almost all TLs that deal with this idea is that these kinds of scenarios usually play out quite similar to OTL’s Cold War, with fascism just taking the place of communism as the enemy of liberalism/capitalism.

While some similarities in military matters, especially in regard to a possible arms race, make sense, I’m not sure that this would also be the case as far as cultural, social and political matters are concerned. The thing about OTL’s Cold War is that, while it seems at first glance as if liberal capitalism and communism were diametrically opposed, they had actually more in common than most people think. Let’s be honest: philosophically at least, liberalism and communism are both firmly on the ‘progressive’ side of the political spectrum. Both believe in universalism, secularism, human rights, equality and democracy – at least on paper. In fact, I would argue that liberalism and communism are both ideologies of ‘liberation’, even if they disagree on who and what exactly needs ‘liberating’.

Of course, the fact that no communist/socialist country ever lived up to most of those beliefs is one of the reasons that most countries that once followed the ideology have abandoned it by now: their ideological contradictions eventually cought up with them.



However, in the scenario of a Cold War between liberal democracies and a block of fascist countries, this wouldn’t be the case. Unlike communism, fascism doesn’t even pretend to care about universalism, secularism, human rights, equality or democracy. If the core value of liberalism is freedom, and that of communism is equality, then fascism’s core value is undoubtedly order. Unlike liberalism and communism, both of which see power either as a necessary evil, or even something to be someday abolished or overcome (at least on paper), fascism openly worships power. Fascism doesn’t see the rule of man over man as a necessary evil, it sees it as the natural state of things. It doesn’t apologize for wielding power, it revels in it.

It also doesn’t care about human equality. I don’t think there are any communists or liberals who would disagree with the famous statement ‘All Men are created equal.’ I would argue that this sentence reflects the philosophical foundation of both liberalism and communism – but certainly not of fascism.

That means that it would make no sense for liberal countries to point out fascist ‘hypocrisy’ in regard to political freedoms (as they did with communist ‘hypocrisy’ during OTL’s Cold War), because fascism doesn’t really care about politcal freedoms. The same is true the other way around: fascist countries certainly won’t complain about American ‘racism’ in regard to its black population, or about western ‘imperialism’. They are more likely to denigrate America for being ‘decadent’, ‘degenerate’ and ‘soulless’ (or something like that).



The reason I’m bringing this up is because replacing the communist bogeyman with a fascist one should have profound effects on the political and cultural dynamics within liberal countries. I’ve often heard it said that the fact that America’s main rival was the Soviet Union, an empire that (on paper) shared some of its values with the US (universalism, secularism, equality etc.), was one of the reasons why the Civil Rights movement for example was so successful. It was basically ‘bad optics’ for the US to keep up segregation (or Apartheid, in South Africa’s case), when it was competing with the Soviet Union and its allies over which system made people more ‘equal’ or ‘free’.

But fascist countries wouldn’t compete on the grounds of equality or freedom; if anything they would compete on the grounds of ‘greatness’. Fascist countries wouldn’t condemn ‘racism’, or praise America for granting blacks political equality, or for feminism, or for affirmative action programs etc; they would instead see these things as abominations, and as further proof of the inherent degeneracy of the western liberal tradition.

Another important factor would be the fact that fascist countries wouldn’t be centrally planned command economies (at least not to the extent that socialist countries were). Unlike socialist countries, they would still share the basics of their economic system with the west, which means that fascist countries would probably be on a much stronger economic footing than socialist ones, and would likely have a higher standard of living in comparison. This means that, compared to OTL, the basics of such an alternate Cold War would be reversed: during OTL‘s Cold War, the west and the east differed sharply on economics, but shared many political, social and cultural values. In an alternate Cold War however, the west and the fascist world would have the same economic systems (for the most part), but would differ sharply on political, social and cultural matters instead.



The question is, what effects would this have on the internal political, social and cultural dynamics of liberal countries, especially the US (as the leader of its block)? In OTL most of the committed ‘Cold Warriors’ were on the political right, while leftists were often accused of being too soft (or even sympathetic) to communism. Would we therefore see a reversal of roles in an alternate Cold War? Or would both the left and right be equally hostile to fascism? Or would they both be equally ‘soft’? Segregationist positions in the US eventually became more and more untenable, both for domestic reasons and due to the international situation. But what if there was a powerful block of countries which not only had no problem with racism, but for which it was even a core value of their belief system? A block that was competing militarily, politically and culturally with the US and its allies?

Remember, the rejection of racism in the west took place only after WW2, and was officially enshrined for the first time with the UN declaration of human rights in 1948, and more explicitly with another declaration in 1963. Eventually schoolbooks and scientific journals were modified to reflect the new (political) consensus, which regarded racial theories as ‚unscientific‘. I very much doubt that any fascist country would ever sign such a declaration (if something like the UN even exists). Most alternate Cold War TLs I’ve seen don’t really deal with this question; it is usually assumed that the US and other liberal countries will develop more or less similar to OTL. While I don’t think that such an outcome is impossible, or even unlikely, I think the way to get there would probably be quite different.

 

[DougM]

Let’s see. Nazi Germany wins so England and the USSR are in a noticeably week place (or Germany could not win).
They have the suck up Italians and Span as neighbors. So they are completely dominant in Europe.
They have the absolute best rocket program and are not THAT far from getting an ICBM.
They have a reasonably decent batch of scientists that should be able to work out an A-Bomb in a fairly short time.
They have good designs for a first generation jet fighter.
And the have a bit of influence in South America if go no other reason then the Historical connections of the German immigrants.
Add in the death camps will eventually leak to the common people (many of whom won’t believe it)
And don’t forget the relationship between Germany and. Japan

And you have a powerful country with advanced weapons that is known to have committed unbelievable levels of atrocities and who has a conflict of interests in various locations and I can’t see any way of this NOT turning into a Cold War.

Of course I think that Germany winning is pretty much ASB level of not happening but...

This is like the old Calvin and Hobbes where Calvin was playing in his dads car and put it in neutral and it rolled away.
Hobbs: can it be fixed.
Calvin: I don’t know I am not a mechanic.
Hobbs: well do you imagine it can be fixed?
Calvin: I suppose if we pretended we can find it I imagine it can be fixed,

So if we pretend Germany can win I Imagine they would get into a Cold War with the US

 

[Alex1guy]

Yeah Hitler was contemptuous of the United States and the US would rightfully fear Germany for that. You're talking about a country that remade the European continent bend up its will through violence, you have little reason to think they'll stop there.

 

[TheTeaMustflow]

The only way a cold war between Nazi Germany and the USA can be avoided is if there is a hot one instead. (Which itself is still a decent possibility, even if somehow Britain has capitulated.)

 

[Historian299]

I think so

1. Fascism goes against many American ideals. While most Americans ignored the Second World War at first, the Fall of France raised a lot of alarm bells. Nor would the US tolerate the Nazi occupying their fellow English speaking Anglos across the pond

2. Even if the US doesn’t enter the war, NYC is going to become the worlds financial capital taking it from London. Which means they will butt heads with Hitler over loans and trade

3. A surviving Nazi Germany will continue its Atomic Bomb project, meaning the US will frantically do their own project. Hence an arms race

4. The Holocaust will become public knowledge, creating a huge outrage in the American public

5. War between the US and Japan is inevitable. Which means the US will win and be the dominant power in Asia and the Americas. This means the clash of civilizations is inevitable.

6. The US leadership was mostly moralistic. Sure there were several bad apples, but the New Deal coalition produced several good presidents that would never allow the Nazis to rule the world

 

[marathag]

They have the absolute best rocket program and are not THAT far from getting an ICBM.
They have a reasonably decent batch of scientists that should be able to work out an A-Bomb in a fairly short time.

Not a short time. Their normally brilliant scientists were out in the weeds here, with multiple unconnected programs, including one from the Post Office, diluting effort and scant resources. Feature, not Bug of Nazism.

What research effort was done, was a reactor, had it been built, would have been a mini Chernobyl. The Nazis really underestimated the need for Control Rods.

And it was the Americans and Russians, not the paperclip Germans working for those two after the War who figured out the faults of the V2 injectors to make large combustion chambers for big boosters. ICBMs not right around the corner.
It was Charlie Bossart at Convair who figured out what was needed for a reliable ICBM, not v.B

It would be 1960 before Nazis figuring out the theory to have a working bomb, and them make them, in number

So that's 15 years of the USA having the Atomic Monopoly

 

[M79]

When and how Germany wins make a big difference. Unless the US stays out altogether, the Germans need 5-7 years just to rebuild and reorganize everything. UK will be very close to the USA while Spain and Portugal drift into the German orbit. Iran is the only thing stopping India from doing so but it is granted independence somewhat differently to prevent just that. Germany looks hard at Guatemala, Colombia, and Argentina as potential New World bases but they only get a little headway in Argentina as the US moves *very* quickly to counter that. Then the US watches as a V-101 rocket go up and takes a satellite with it - game on.

 

[TimTurner]

I think so

1. Fascism goes against many American ideals. While most Americans ignored the Second World War at first, the Fall of France raised a lot of alarm bells. Nor would the US tolerate the Nazi occupying their fellow English speaking Anglos across the pond

2. Even if the US doesn’t enter the war, NYC is going to become the worlds financial capital taking it from London. Which means they will butt heads with Hitler over loans and trade

3. A surviving Nazi Germany will continue its Atomic Bomb project, meaning the US will frantically do their own project. Hence an arms race

4. The Holocaust will become public knowledge, creating a huge outrage in the American public

5. War between the US and Japan is inevitable. Which means the US will win and be the dominant power in Asia and the Americas. This means the clash of civilizations is inevitable.

6. The US leadership was mostly moralistic. Sure there were several bad apples, but the New Deal coalition produced several good presidents that would never allow the Nazis to rule the world

this basically sums up what I think would happen.

 

[M79]

If you want go to for truly twisted this might result in a faction of Germans preaching greater involvement of the conquered territories and peoples along with environmentalism. Literally, Green Nazis preaching greater 'tolerance'.

If they push for more rigorous public education, does that make them literal grammar nazis?

 

[Catsmate]

So they are completely dominant in Europe.

But poor in immediate resources and useful power against resistance forces

They have the absolute best rocket program and are not THAT far from getting an ICBM.

Ten years, minimum.

They have a reasonably decent batch of scientists that should be able to work out an A-Bomb in a fairly short time.

Not without a lot of help. The German nuclear programme was confused, politically messed-up and under resourced.

They have good designs for a first generation jet fighter.

With materials and fuel shortages. Also short ranged and requiring a long, concrete runway.

And the have a bit of influence in South America if go no other reason then the Historical connections of the German immigrants.

A very likely flashpoint. Just look at the FBI's meddling in Brazil over the "German monks" and their threat to the Panama canal.

 

[Don Corleone]

Another factor that would help trigger a Cold War/Brown Scare: a Nazi victory would produce a large influx of refugees from Europe, who would bring their disdain for the Reich. It would be like anticommunist Cubans in OTL.

Given the likelihood of Wisconsin as a destination for German-speaking refugees, McCarthy has an even greater incentive to hunt Nazis than he did to hunt Communists.

 

[basileus]

It would be Germany to be aggressive to the US, despite the latter's goodwill and wounded feelings. Plus, a huge fifth column at every level, and particularly among the rich & powerful, would always work for detente and appeasment with the victorious and omnipotent Nazis.

 

[marathag]

One of the few things that Hoover was good at, was rounding up Nazi agents

 

[Histor32]

Again.. Depends

The Nazis have bitten off alot more than they can chew. Alot of this is undeveloped territory or completely wrecked by the war.

How much of the Soviet union lives on, what's the tear a of peace.

Before 41? And the US joining? If no well.. That's a peoblem.. But okay, USA somehow stays nuteral.. When?

Also.. The Germans can say what they want to the British, they can't invade them. So anything besides leave us alone and we leave you alone and the British just say screw off.

The USA will object with interference in its sphere.. Hell they pissed and moaned about the British and French..

Sure the US will sell to anyone.. Money talks according to us economic policy since 1776.

Would Americans really protest nazi demographic policies? Eh.. Doubtful.. This is 1940s USA we are talking about most wouldn't care as it isnt here, and while the USA was bigoted screwed up place, it wasn't even on the same planet as nazi Germany. But would most Americans care, oh some would speak out, but most wouldn't care.

Cold War.. Maybe.. Maybe not.. It takes a while for such things to develop. Nazi Germany could be gone before it gets going

 

[sloreck]

When the war was over and the facts of the Holocaust came out, the USA would probably go "gee, that's really horrible those are truly bad folks". The vast majority of the US population was perfectly fine with the policies that kept Jewish refugees out of the USA and South/Central America and the Caribbean even in the face of the pre-Holocaust nastiness the Nazis were doing. When Generalplan OSt swings in to effect, there might be more upset, certainly the Eastern European/Slavic communities would go apeshit but outside of local pockets (like Chicago) just like the Jews their political pull is limited.

The insane efforts of the State Department even after evidence of the Holocaust was out during the war to keep Jews out took a long time to come to light, and is still not widely known/understood. Coziness of big business to the Nazis and their ill-gotten money by various US businesses even after 1939 took a long time to come out, and then primarily in academic circles. While I expect there would be a cold war of some sort, Nazi racial policies would be, at most, a small part of it. Congressmen from districts where there are concentrations of Jews. Slavs or all sorts, etc will undoubtedly make speeches and even propose bills. Politicians from districts where a lot of money is being made trading with the Nazis are unlikely to propose limits that would hurt the businesses/workers in their districts. Money talks, bullshit walks. Now hopefully technology or ciritical security raw materials won't be sold, hopefully...

 

[KuboCaskett]

I'm of the opinion that the USA would enter a "détente" of sorts with a victorious Third Reich since after all, why bother going against a power that defeated the hated Soviet Union (never mind the fact that the Nazis opposed it on racial grounds) and doesn't have a villainous ideology to export? Though as other members pointed out, said "détente" wouldn't last long as people in the US and other democratic countries would become aware of the Nazi atrocities (though not to the extent of OTL) and have many people of backgrounds that the Nazis oppressed becoming more influential overtime (especially Jews). Funny enough as it might be me judging this from a current year perspective, but there might attempts to make the Soviets and other communist regimes "innocent victims" to spite the Axis bloc, namely apologism for stuff like the Holodomor and the like (or even denialism); not that the people who believed in communist ideologies deserved to be oppressed you know.

I think it’s inevitable. Liberalism is just as much of a revolutionary, universalist and liberationist ideology as communism was, whether liberals want to admit it or not. It sees itself as the ‘end of history’, and cannot coexist with fascism, just like it couldn’t coexist with communism.
However, a Cold War between liberalism and fascism should look quite a bit different compared to the OTL struggle with communism. I posted a thread earlier today about this very topic. Here’s what I said:

I wanted to make this point in that thread but I'll make it here: communism is quite far left to liberalism and is and always have been authoritarian, no matter what the folks who believed in them thought otherwise. Heck, the tenet of "dictatorship of the proletariat" says it all when it comes to what kind of ideology communism is, along with the idea of overthrowing the "ruling class" via an undemocratic revolution, even if said revolution uses the name "democratic" loosely. Sure it might share a few ideas with non-communist leftists but it's another thing when time and again communism when practiced always end up being authoritarian as hell, not just with people being murdered but economies and other aspects of society stunned in the name of a class-based ideology.

 

[iron]

A big, big (BIG) thing is economics. Nazi Germany has just taken control of the Markets of the continent. It dictates trade, and can cut off trade that was once the realm of many different nations with the United States. It forms an entire power bloc, and said power bloc is also competitive to the United States. Just on economic terms, I think you have a Cold War.

Dude. Read wages of Destruction.

That is all.

 

[Histor32]

I'm of the opinion that the USA would enter a "détente" of sorts with a victorious Third Reich since after all, why bother going against a power that defeated the hated Soviet Union (never mind the fact that the Nazis opposed it on racial grounds) and doesn't have a villainous ideology to export? Though as other members pointed out, said "détente" wouldn't last long as people in the US and other democratic countries would become aware of the Nazi atrocities (though not to the extent of OTL) and have many people of backgrounds that the Nazis oppressed becoming more influential overtime (especially Jews). Funny enough as it might be me judging this from a current year perspective, but there might attempts to make the Soviets and other communist regimes "innocent victims" to spite the Axis bloc, namely apologism for stuff like the Holodomor and the like (or even denialism); not that the people who believed in communist ideologies deserved to be oppressed you know.

I wanted to make this point in that thread but I'll make it here: communism is quite far left to liberalism and is and always have been authoritarian, no matter what the folks who believed in them thought otherwise. Heck, the tenet of "dictatorship of the proletariat" says it all when it comes to what kind of ideology communism is, along with the idea of overthrowing the "ruling class" via an undemocratic revolution, even if said revolution uses the name "democratic" loosely. Sure it might share a few ideas with non-communist leftists but it's another thing when time and again communism when practiced always end up being authoritarian as hell, not just with people being murdered but economies and other aspects of society stunned in the name of a class-based ideology.

Well those rich people did have ample time to care about the plight of the worker and normal person whilst maybe doing something about it and in the same breath the workers dictatorship had a good 70 years as well..

 

[DougM]

If we assume that Germany won the war then obviously England and the USSR lost. The question we don’t have answers for is how badly (or how it even happened). But that is not the question here.
If Germany wins this means that they basically control all of Europe either directly or via allies or puppets. So they have a LIOT of additional resources to use. So they can (now that they are not fighting a war) take the time money and resources to work on the ICBMs the A-Bomb and the Jets.
If the USSR can develop them from basically scratch in 5 or 6 years then the Germans with arguably more resources (almost all of Europe) and a better startup no point should easily have them at least as soon.
So yes by the early 50s we would see a Cold War pretty much like we had but with better looking uniforms on the bad guys in Hollywood movies.