Would the USA enter a Cold War with a victorious Nazi Germany after WW2?

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by Jabe Shepherd, Jul 11, 2018.

  1. Emperor Norton I Calbear's Love Child

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2008
    Location:
    New Netherland
    A big, big (BIG) thing is economics. Nazi Germany has just taken control of the Markets of the continent. It dictates trade, and can cut off trade that was once the realm of many different nations with the United States. It forms an entire power bloc, and said power bloc is also competitive to the United States. Just on economic terms, I think you have a Cold War.
     
    The Undead Martyr and TimTurner like this.
  2. Rufus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2015
    I think it’s inevitable. Liberalism is just as much of a revolutionary, universalist and liberationist ideology as communism was, whether liberals want to admit it or not. It sees itself as the ‘end of history’, and cannot coexist with fascism, just like it couldn’t coexist with communism.
    However, a Cold War between liberalism and fascism should look quite a bit different compared to the OTL struggle with communism. I posted a thread earlier today about this very topic. Here’s what I said:


     
  3. DougM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2015
    Let’s see. Nazi Germany wins so England and the USSR are in a noticeably week place (or Germany could not win).
    They have the suck up Italians and Span as neighbors. So they are completely dominant in Europe.
    They have the absolute best rocket program and are not THAT far from getting an ICBM.
    They have a reasonably decent batch of scientists that should be able to work out an A-Bomb in a fairly short time.
    They have good designs for a first generation jet fighter.
    And the have a bit of influence in South America if go no other reason then the Historical connections of the German immigrants.
    Add in the death camps will eventually leak to the common people (many of whom won’t believe it)
    And don’t forget the relationship between Germany and. Japan

    And you have a powerful country with advanced weapons that is known to have committed unbelievable levels of atrocities and who has a conflict of interests in various locations and I can’t see any way of this NOT turning into a Cold War.

    Of course I think that Germany winning is pretty much ASB level of not happening but...

    This is like the old Calvin and Hobbes where Calvin was playing in his dads car and put it in neutral and it rolled away.
    Hobbs: can it be fixed.
    Calvin: I don’t know I am not a mechanic.
    Hobbs: well do you imagine it can be fixed?
    Calvin: I suppose if we pretended we can find it I imagine it can be fixed,

    So if we pretend Germany can win I Imagine they would get into a Cold War with the US
     
  4. Alex1guy First Of His Name

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2011
    Location:
    The New Zealand Empire
    Yeah Hitler was contemptuous of the United States and the US would rightfully fear Germany for that. You're talking about a country that remade the European continent bend up its will through violence, you have little reason to think they'll stop there.
     
  5. TheTeaMustflow Not Particularly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2015
    Location:
    Perfidious Albion
    The only way a cold war between Nazi Germany and the USA can be avoided is if there is a hot one instead. (Which itself is still a decent possibility, even if somehow Britain has capitulated.)
     
  6. Historian299 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2019
    I think so

    1. Fascism goes against many American ideals. While most Americans ignored the Second World War at first, the Fall of France raised a lot of alarm bells. Nor would the US tolerate the Nazi occupying their fellow English speaking Anglos across the pond

    2. Even if the US doesn’t enter the war, NYC is going to become the worlds financial capital taking it from London. Which means they will butt heads with Hitler over loans and trade

    3. A surviving Nazi Germany will continue its Atomic Bomb project, meaning the US will frantically do their own project. Hence an arms race

    4. The Holocaust will become public knowledge, creating a huge outrage in the American public

    5. War between the US and Japan is inevitable. Which means the US will win and be the dominant power in Asia and the Americas. This means the clash of civilizations is inevitable.

    6. The US leadership was mostly moralistic. Sure there were several bad apples, but the New Deal coalition produced several good presidents that would never allow the Nazis to rule the world
     
    Deltax10, Landmass Wave and TimTurner like this.
  7. marathag Well-Known Member with a target on his back

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2013
    Not a short time. Their normally brilliant scientists were out in the weeds here, with multiple unconnected programs, including one from the Post Office, diluting effort and scant resources. Feature, not Bug of Nazism.

    What research effort was done, was a reactor, had it been built, would have been a mini Chernobyl. The Nazis really underestimated the need for Control Rods.

    And it was the Americans and Russians, not the paperclip Germans working for those two after the War who figured out the faults of the V2 injectors to make large combustion chambers for big boosters. ICBMs not right around the corner.
    It was Charlie Bossart at Convair who figured out what was needed for a reliable ICBM, not v.B

    It would be 1960 before Nazis figuring out the theory to have a working bomb, and them make them, in number

    So that's 15 years of the USA having the Atomic Monopoly
     
  8. M79 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2007
    When and how Germany wins make a big difference. Unless the US stays out altogether, the Germans need 5-7 years just to rebuild and reorganize everything. UK will be very close to the USA while Spain and Portugal drift into the German orbit. Iran is the only thing stopping India from doing so but it is granted independence somewhat differently to prevent just that. Germany looks hard at Guatemala, Colombia, and Argentina as potential New World bases but they only get a little headway in Argentina as the US moves *very* quickly to counter that. Then the US watches as a V-101 rocket go up and takes a satellite with it - game on.
     
  9. TimTurner Cartoon Phanatic

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2015
    Location:
    DFW area, Texas (no, Tibecuador)
    this basically sums up what I think would happen.
     
  10. M79 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2007
    If you want go to for truly twisted this might result in a faction of Germans preaching greater involvement of the conquered territories and peoples along with environmentalism. Literally, Green Nazis preaching greater 'tolerance'.

    If they push for more rigorous public education, does that make them literal grammar nazis?
     
  11. Catsmate Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2008
    But poor in immediate resources and useful power against resistance forces
    Ten years, minimum.
    Not without a lot of help. The German nuclear programme was confused, politically messed-up and under resourced.
    With materials and fuel shortages. Also short ranged and requiring a long, concrete runway.
    A very likely flashpoint. Just look at the FBI's meddling in Brazil over the "German monks" and their threat to the Panama canal.
     
  12. Landmass Wave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2017
    Location:
    Landmass between New Orleans and Mobile
    Another factor that would help trigger a Cold War/Brown Scare: a Nazi victory would produce a large influx of refugees from Europe, who would bring their disdain for the Reich. It would be like anticommunist Cubans in OTL.

    Given the likelihood of Wisconsin as a destination for German-speaking refugees, McCarthy has an even greater incentive to hunt Nazis than he did to hunt Communists.
     
  13. basileus Inflammable

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2004
    Location:
    Thema Kastrosibrion ton Langobardon
    It would be Germany to be aggressive to the US, despite the latter's goodwill and wounded feelings. Plus, a huge fifth column at every level, and particularly among the rich & powerful, would always work for detente and appeasment with the victorious and omnipotent Nazis.
     
  14. marathag Well-Known Member with a target on his back

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2013
    One of the few things that Hoover was good at, was rounding up Nazi agents
     
  15. Histor32 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2015
    Location:
    americanyets na europa
    Again.. Depends

    The Nazis have bitten off alot more than they can chew. Alot of this is undeveloped territory or completely wrecked by the war.

    How much of the Soviet union lives on, what's the tear a of peace.

    Before 41? And the US joining? If no well.. That's a peoblem.. But okay, USA somehow stays nuteral.. When?

    Also.. The Germans can say what they want to the British, they can't invade them. So anything besides leave us alone and we leave you alone and the British just say screw off.

    The USA will object with interference in its sphere.. Hell they pissed and moaned about the British and French..

    Sure the US will sell to anyone.. Money talks according to us economic policy since 1776.

    Would Americans really protest nazi demographic policies? Eh.. Doubtful.. This is 1940s USA we are talking about most wouldn't care as it isnt here, and while the USA was bigoted screwed up place, it wasn't even on the same planet as nazi Germany. But would most Americans care, oh some would speak out, but most wouldn't care.

    Cold War.. Maybe.. Maybe not.. It takes a while for such things to develop. Nazi Germany could be gone before it gets going
     
    mayboro likes this.
  16. sloreck Grunt Bear

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2008
    Location:
    Midwest
    When the war was over and the facts of the Holocaust came out, the USA would probably go "gee, that's really horrible those are truly bad folks". The vast majority of the US population was perfectly fine with the policies that kept Jewish refugees out of the USA and South/Central America and the Caribbean even in the face of the pre-Holocaust nastiness the Nazis were doing. When Generalplan OSt swings in to effect, there might be more upset, certainly the Eastern European/Slavic communities would go apeshit but outside of local pockets (like Chicago) just like the Jews their political pull is limited.

    The insane efforts of the State Department even after evidence of the Holocaust was out during the war to keep Jews out took a long time to come to light, and is still not widely known/understood. Coziness of big business to the Nazis and their ill-gotten money by various US businesses even after 1939 took a long time to come out, and then primarily in academic circles. While I expect there would be a cold war of some sort, Nazi racial policies would be, at most, a small part of it. Congressmen from districts where there are concentrations of Jews. Slavs or all sorts, etc will undoubtedly make speeches and even propose bills. Politicians from districts where a lot of money is being made trading with the Nazis are unlikely to propose limits that would hurt the businesses/workers in their districts. Money talks, bullshit walks. Now hopefully technology or ciritical security raw materials won't be sold, hopefully...
     
    mayboro and Thon Taddeo like this.
  17. KuboCaskett Resident Otaku

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2014
    Location:
    Indiana, USA
    I'm of the opinion that the USA would enter a "détente" of sorts with a victorious Third Reich since after all, why bother going against a power that defeated the hated Soviet Union (never mind the fact that the Nazis opposed it on racial grounds) and doesn't have a villainous ideology to export? Though as other members pointed out, said "détente" wouldn't last long as people in the US and other democratic countries would become aware of the Nazi atrocities (though not to the extent of OTL) and have many people of backgrounds that the Nazis oppressed becoming more influential overtime (especially Jews). Funny enough as it might be me judging this from a current year perspective, but there might attempts to make the Soviets and other communist regimes "innocent victims" to spite the Axis bloc, namely apologism for stuff like the Holodomor and the like (or even denialism); not that the people who believed in communist ideologies deserved to be oppressed you know.
    I wanted to make this point in that thread but I'll make it here: communism is quite far left to liberalism and is and always have been authoritarian, no matter what the folks who believed in them thought otherwise. Heck, the tenet of "dictatorship of the proletariat" says it all when it comes to what kind of ideology communism is, along with the idea of overthrowing the "ruling class" via an undemocratic revolution, even if said revolution uses the name "democratic" loosely. Sure it might share a few ideas with non-communist leftists but it's another thing when time and again communism when practiced always end up being authoritarian as hell, not just with people being murdered but economies and other aspects of society stunned in the name of a class-based ideology.
     
    Landmass Wave likes this.
  18. iron Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2010
    Dude. Read wages of Destruction.

    That is all.
     
    rfmcdonald and Histor32 like this.
  19. Histor32 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2015
    Location:
    americanyets na europa
    Well those rich people did have ample time to care about the plight of the worker and normal person whilst maybe doing something about it and in the same breath the workers dictatorship had a good 70 years as well..
     
  20. DougM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2015
    If we assume that Germany won the war then obviously England and the USSR lost. The question we don’t have answers for is how badly (or how it even happened). But that is not the question here.
    If Germany wins this means that they basically control all of Europe either directly or via allies or puppets. So they have a LIOT of additional resources to use. So they can (now that they are not fighting a war) take the time money and resources to work on the ICBMs the A-Bomb and the Jets.
    If the USSR can develop them from basically scratch in 5 or 6 years then the Germans with arguably more resources (almost all of Europe) and a better startup no point should easily have them at least as soon.
    So yes by the early 50s we would see a Cold War pretty much like we had but with better looking uniforms on the bad guys in Hollywood movies.