Would the USA enter a Cold War with a victorious Nazi Germany after WW2?

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by Jabe Shepherd, Jul 11, 2018.

  1. Ricardolindo Well-Known Member

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    Before Pearl Harbor, polls, already, showed, that, most Americans believed, that, it would be bad for the USA if Nazi Germany won, so, there almost certainly would have been a Cold War, though what it would look like is hard to say.
     
  2. Noscoper Well-Known Member

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    Nazi Germany will be more palatable than Soviets were given Germany is non-communist and not commit to spreading revolution or it's ideology.So many states that were in the American or Soviet camps during the cold war will be far more likely to play them off each other.
     
  3. Landmass Wave Well-Known Member

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    Germany wouldn't be seeking further expansion in the short term and wouldn't be viewed as an existential threat to the US, so there would be less of an arms race and no McCarthyism.

    A victorious Reich might be able to cover up the Holocaust or successfully blame the Soviets. If they pull that off, the Nazis are just racists and antisemites, no worse than Dixiecrats.

    Cold War tensions could ratchet up in the medium term, as Christianity is eroded in the Reich. Hitler wanted Christianity to be eliminated, but unlike with Judaism was willing to play the long game. If Angelo Roncalli is still elected Pope, and the Axis become aware of his wartime activities, Catholics become a target (followed a few years later by mainline Protestants). That allows the left in the US to demonize those godless Nazis.

    We have a slightly delayed civil rights movement here, since black soldiers don't have the OTL argument of "We fought for freedom, so where is it?" (I don't see an Axis victory as a realistic outcome if the US enters the war.) The civil rights movement, of course, had substantial Christian involvement. Dixiecrats could be painted as un-American and enemy sympathizers. End result could be that New Dealers and the religious right are one party and corporate shills and libertines are the other.
     
  4. marathag Well-Known Member with a target on his back

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    Ford made more money with his dealings with Stalin than AH, keep that in mind, and he wasn't the only one who made $$$ off the Communists

    The business of the USA was 'business' and the Autarky that the Nazi leadership wanted edged out US concerns, and after 1939, Nationalizing US companies didn't make Rich Uncle Pennybags happy.

    You realize that Germany declared War on the USA, changed a lot of opinions, right?
     
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  5. Marc reformed polymath... Donor

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    I wonder why the rather large number of Americans who can't ignore the mass exterminations isn't taken into consideration.

    For starters, there were approximately 5 million Jews in the United States in 1940.
    Plus a number of millions more Slavs, mostly from Russia and Poland. Not to mention hundreds of thousands of others who would learn of their people being butchered.

    Now, if both sides have nuclear weapons, perhaps for the greater good the United States simply lets Generalplan Ost happen.
    But if nuclear aren't the in picture - at least in 1940's - then, no, I doubt that we would stand by. We've gone to war for far less decent causes.
    And parenthetically, if we didn't destroy the Nazis, we would be effectively, accessories.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2019
  6. marathag Well-Known Member with a target on his back

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    Only way Germany gets atomic weapons is if the US gives them some, or gets gifts from ASBs

    They don't have the theory
    They don't have the infrastruture
     
  7. Ricardolindo Well-Known Member

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    IMO, people would have found out about the Holocaust, because USA spies would have found out about it and the government would publicize the information. This would probably lead to a more liberal and anti-racist USA due to the backlash.
     
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  8. Thon Taddeo Well-Known Member

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    OTL information about the extermination of Jews was known in the Allied countries during the war, however it wasn't viewed as unique. The Jews were at best, simply viewed as Hitler's first victims.

    The idea that the Holocaust was unknown during the war is one of the most pervasive myths of WW2.

    So in this Cold War, there would be knowledge of Nazi atrocities, though without seeing the results, I don't think most people would care much. How much does the average American care about the mass murders in Darfur, Rwanda or the Congo?
     
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  9. Carl Schwamberger Well-Known Member

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    Not all opinions. When Henry Ford noticed the solicitation to build Merlin engines in a package of contacts offered to him in early 1942, threw a fit. He still thought the Brits we're Satan & responsible for the war. The Merlin engine contract went elsewhere. The head of Davis Oil died in prison in 1943 while under investigation for trying to sell petroleum to Germany via nuetral third parties.
     
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  10. Ricardolindo Well-Known Member

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    Many people, at the time, doubted, that, the Holocaust could be in such as an extent as the reports said, that, it was. Even the British government was skeptic. Many people believed, that, something was happening but did not believe, that, it could be in such an extent. I can't blame them, it could seem weird, to many, that, Nazi Germany could be able to carry out such a thing while fighting a World War. Unfortunately, it was later shown, that, the reports were very correct.
     
  11. marathag Well-Known Member with a target on his back

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    Ford hated the British more than liked Germany, had no problems trying to get the French to build his V12 competitor.
     
  12. Marc reformed polymath... Donor

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    Sadly, your reference to holocaust type events were in Africa, which isn't something that Americans pay attention or care about.
    Now, Eastern Europe to the Urals becoming a charnel house, an abattoir? Much more relevant to Americans. And, I would imaginee the Finns and Swedes not staying silent - not the best of them at any rate. (Which does raise the question as to how long it would take the Nazi's to occupy those countries).
    The notion of being able to hide Generalplan Ost is really the stuff of fiction.
     
  13. Ricardolindo Well-Known Member

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    Nazi Germany planned to deport many Estonians. That would probably sour Nazi relations with Finland, since Finns and Estonians are closely related.
     
  14. Thon Taddeo Well-Known Member

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    Some drafts of Generalplan Ost included deporting up to 50% of Estonians, but the plan was never finalized in OTL, and it could easily have been modified to not include said deportations.
     
  15. Luminous Headwing Consulting

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    Looking at the OTL events, I'm not sure why we're assuming that the US wouldn't view the Germans as a threat - the Fall of France was, effectively, the trigger for the Two-Ocean Navy act. Sudden German dominance of the continent was seen as bad news in the US as of OTL - and a capitulation of Britain would be a cause for even further American rearmament, especially if the Soviets look to fall before the Germans. Let's not even count the projected attempt sfor the US to intervene in the Azores before the Germans could establish themselves there, or similar. All in all, the US seemed fairly committed to keeping the Germans pinned up in Europe.

    So I think you're going to need to alter the American reaction to Germany's sudden conquest of an entire continent to have any hope of forestalling the US lining themselves up against the Germans.
     
  16. sloreck Grunt Bear

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    Another driver of a US-German Cold War would be German attempts in South America. In Argentina and Paraguay particularly the US was concerned about Nazi influence. Even the most extreme isolationists were drawing the line at the Western hemisphere.
     
  17. Ricardolindo Well-Known Member

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    Actually, in an opinion poll in ealy 1939, more than 80% of Americans said, that, in a hypothetical war between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, they would prefer to see the Soviet Union win.
     
  18. FillyofDelphi Banned

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    While that's certainly a sign of prefering the Soviets and the Nazis, I'm not sure that equates to Americans wanting to proactively poke either bear should they emerge in an unassailable position on the Continent. Now, if Germany starts pushing up against American interests that's an entirely different kettle of fish, but if the US has nothing in Western Europe that can see as possible and worth contesting and Germany is in practical terms going to be sucked into the steppes of Eastern Europe for some time, why start a conflict that isen't needed? There's a Japan to rebuild and freshly freed Asian regions to expand influence into that aren't under any threat of falling into the German sphere
     
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  19. mianfei Well-Known Member

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    That was indeed the most basic reason for US hostility to Nazi Germany (and indeed to the Nationalists in Spain).

    Essentially United States ruling classes were quite hostile to democracy and to ideas of racial equality – as seen by the mass of racial laws imposed by states and towns (for instance “sundown towns” where only whites could reside) in the half-century preceding the Second World War, and by the fact that outside northern cities almost no non-whites could vote before the 1944 court case of Smith v. Allright. Were it not for the demand for unity against the threat of Nazi German or Nationalist Spanish control over Latin America and other US markets, the US would have become even more racist and anti-Semitic than it was in the 1930s – and unlike Europe the urban working classes were not free of this racism.

    If an agreement dividing the world into spheres of influence had been made between the White House and Hitler, a “Cold War” would have been unlikely. In fact, a much-more-racist United States might have united with Nazi Germany against postwar liberation struggles in Asia (especially India) and Africa, especially if Russia and China were not Stalinist opponents of them.
     
  20. Ricardolindo Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Aug 2, 2019
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