A possible POD here might have been around 1400, with a longer living Timur, who destroyed the Ottomans sufficiently to stop them from rebuilding their empire. If we assume that an ATL reformation had been attempted at about the same time as in OTL, that in the first half of the 1500s, what would its chances of success have been? I assume here that no similar threat like the Ottomans would have arisen. The existence of teh Ottoman Empire meant that the Habsburgs had to put its main focus on fighting them rather than the protestants. Without the Ottomans, they could have used all their power against the reformers.
Would a protestant reformation have been possible without the threat from the Ottoman Empire?
- Thread starter Eivind
- Start date
The first Habsburg-Ottoman conflict took place in 1526, after the Reformation had already started and was in full swing (the first officially Protestant state, Prussia, had converted a year prior).
The Ottoman wars and the Reformation weren't even the only things the Habsburgs had to worry about during that time, anyway, so the nonexistence of one does not mean they can put all their forces to fight the other.
popaly, if i remember right it was more the ottomans took advantage the cause caused by the potastante reformation then helping it, am not sheer if without a threat by the ottoman empire would have destroyed the reformation but based on my (very limited knowledge on the subject) that it would have been a blow to Protestantism in Germany but wouldn't really effect it in the rest of the European reformation.
Sure, it was after it had started, but that would not necessarily mean that the Habsburgs in an ATL could not have succeeded in repressing the Protestants in the long run if they did not have to fight on several fronts.
The people is that their influence doesn't extend far outside of the Holy Roman Empire at this point (barring Charles V's hijinks). As in, even if they fought back against Protestantism in Germany in this scenario (and as far as I've heard, they didn't do too badly there in OTL either; the South is firmly Catholic nowadays, after all), they would not be able to stop Scandinavia, their surrounding and the Dutch from going Protestant, and probably not England or the Huguenots either.
Most likely yes. Anti-Papal sentiments had been growing for centuries, and the Black Death had wiped out much of the truly faithful of the clergy. The failure of the crusades hadn't helped, nor had the decline of the knightly orders. The Avignon Captivity was still a fresh wound on the church, and the burgeoning Italian economy was leading to ostentatious displays of grandeur even as the faithful starved. There were a lot of causes for the reformation, and the Ottomans were probably a pretty minor one in the grand scheme of things. Granted, the butterflies from this could make the reformation very different from OTL. If the Ottomans stop in Greece, that means that Hungary is still in play during the religious wars, which adds another Catholic power to the mix. And like you said, no Ottomans means the Austrians can focus on the Protestants instead. For that matter, Poland might be able to do something about them as well, though the butterflies could easily turn them to the Protestant camp. The most likely outcome of this is a defeat of Protestant political power in Europe. However, unless they're subjected to fullscale crusades like the Cathars were, they are going to stick around as a sizable minority. And by this point I don't think that there was much stomach for crusading- we've seen OTL how the Varna Crusade only attracted the nearby countries. Ultimately, you'd likely see a more heavily Catholic Europe with a heavier leaning towards Protestantism in the Americas.
Laughs in Hussite.
But in all seriousness, there was a group that was very similar to what we today consider to be Pentecostals active within the first century (Montanists). The only difference between a Protestant and a Catholic Heretic is that a Protestant is able to gain enough political power to effectively fight against the Pope, while heretics did not. And especially as the printing press comes around, the Catholic church is either going to have to reform from the inside or from the outside.
Also, on another weird note, it is really a fluke that the Protestant reformation developed so similarly. Really, without the two strong unifying figures of Luther and Calvin, we could have had the Protestant reformation include Arians, Gnostics, and pretty much anything under the sun. For all we know, if the Ottomans collapsed, Calvin could end up being a minor Catholic monk and St. Theognosis the Wise could lead the Great French Gnostic Crusade through the plains of Mercia.
But in all seriousness, there was a group that was very similar to what we today consider to be Pentecostals active within the first century (Montanists). The only difference between a Protestant and a Catholic Heretic is that a Protestant is able to gain enough political power to effectively fight against the Pope, while heretics did not. And especially as the printing press comes around, the Catholic church is either going to have to reform from the inside or from the outside.
Also, on another weird note, it is really a fluke that the Protestant reformation developed so similarly. Really, without the two strong unifying figures of Luther and Calvin, we could have had the Protestant reformation include Arians, Gnostics, and pretty much anything under the sun. For all we know, if the Ottomans collapsed, Calvin could end up being a minor Catholic monk and St. Theognosis the Wise could lead the Great French Gnostic Crusade through the plains of Mercia.
Koprulu Mustafa Pasha
Gone Fishin'
The Ottomans were not there during the Hussite wars yet it was succesful for the time being.
But the Catholic church did eventually succeed in repressing the Hussites. I am not suggesting that trhere would not have been attempts to make a reformation, just that without the Ottomans, the Habsburgs would not have had to fight on two fronts. But, of course, the difference between the Hussites and the reformers in the 1500s was that the latter had access to the printing press.
The most important factor was the printing press.
The Ottomans as an outside threat also had a unifying effect. The protestant princes of the Empire paid money and sent troops to fight the turks just as the catholics putting aside their religious differences.
Would that be because if Protestantism spread less in Europe and was not supported by the state anywhere, Protestants would have settled in larger number in Latin America?
Given that areas north of the Pyrenees had many more people to “export” than did Spain or Portugal, would that mean much larger and earlier migrations to Latin America from Germany and Denmark? Then, how differently would a more densely populated German/Danish South America have been from what we have actually seen? Would this have led to a scenario where Rome retains much more power in Europe and economic development shifts to the Caribbean and Central America at an early date?