Worse than the Draka

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SunilTanna

The Draka are nasty, because
1. Enslave everybody
2. Torture people, etc.
3. Destroy societies

But it seems they're also *not* completely nasty, because they actually care about their serfs. They want their serfs to be happy to be serfs. It's a recurring theme in the books - they're looking for ways to modify serfs so that serfs like being serfs.

By the time of the Final Society, it's no longer horrible to be a serf. The serfs really like being serfs. They are not disatisfied with their lot. Even before then, serfs who are captured by the Alliance, generally prefer to go back to the Domination and being serfs... because being a serf is not so horrible that you would do anything to avoid it.

Compare 1984 for example - it really is horrible, without exception, and without any prospect of ever being happy with your situation, to be outer party or a prole.

So, what else is (books, etc.) or would be, worse than the Draka
 
Redem

Redem

SunilTanna said:
The Draka are nasty, because
1. Enslave everybody
2. Torture people, etc.
3. Destroy societies

But it seems they're also *not* completely nasty, because they actually care about their serfs. They want their serfs to be happy to be serfs. It's a recurring theme in the books - they're looking for ways to modify serfs so that serfs like being serfs.

By the time of the Final Society, it's no longer horrible to be a serf. The serfs really like being serfs. They are not disatisfied with their lot. Even before then, serfs who are captured by the Alliance, generally prefer to go back to the Domination and being serfs... because being a serf is not so horrible that you would do anything to avoid it.

Compare 1984 for example - it really is horrible, without exception, and without any prospect of ever being happy with your situation, to be outer party or a prole.

So, what else is (books, etc.) or would be, worse than the Draka
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So basicly it's better for the draka to have completly destroy the will of the serf and overall individuallity in order to make their vision of the world viable than if the serf than simply opress them the good old fashion way? (I'm not sure it's the right section, but the discussion is interesting). Somewhere it's kinda like brave new world, people are not free but they are unbelivably happy.
 

Strategos' Risk

There's also the infamous Gor, which I'm not really sure is worse than the Draka, but there's an immense stigma against the series because while the Draka are implied or referenced in committing atrocities (impalement, rape), the Gor are all about rape and sexual domination of women, and the author of the series as well as its fans are all a bunch of sadomasochist deviants.

Relative to that, the Draka are bit cool in a Galactic Empire sort of way.
 

Quiet_Man

Compared to Nazi's, the Draka aren't too bad at all. They just want slaves, not racial extermination of anyone who doesn't fit the mould. Still wouldn't want the Draka as neighbours or even in the same universe :D
 

Max Sinister

Banned
Mass impalings and the destruction of, I don't know, every society on Earth aren't that bad?

And how do they make their slaves so docile? Drugs, genetic modifications, ASB?

Thread moved to Books.
 

SunilTanna

I don't disagree that the methods use to create the Final Society are horrible, but the end result has a certain utopian quality, from both the masters and from the slaves point of view.

Masters (Draka):
1. They have want they want
2. Whenever they want it
3. They are happy with their role in society

Slaves (Homo Servus, Ghouloons)
1. They are pretty much physically incapable of disobeying their masters.
2. They like obeying their masters
3. Provided they obey their masters (which they want to do anyway) they are or more or less safe from randomly being killed, tortured, or otherwise suffering.
4. They are happy with their role in society


Now of course the cost to impose this type of society has been horrific - but the __end_result__ as I said, has a certain utopian quality - everybody is happy with their role in society, nobody is being forced to do something that they do not want to do, etc.

Compare for example a super-sadistic slave based society. They might design their slaves/underclass differently:

1. They are completely incapable of disobeying their masters. They may have the desire to disobey, but they do not have the will or ability or the means, or perhaps are physically incapable of disobeying.
2. They HATE obeying their masters
3. Even if they obey their masters, they are never safe from being killed, tortured, or otherwise suffering. Torture, incarceration, etc., and the constant fear of arbitarily being picked for this things - regardless of anything you might or might not do - are routine.
4. They HATE their role in society
 

LordKalvan

Strategos' Risk said:
... while the Draka are implied or referenced in committing atrocities (impalement, rape), the Gor are all about rape and sexual domination of women, and the author of the series as well as its fans are all a bunch of sadomasochist deviants.

Relative to that, the Draka are bit cool in a Galactic Empire sort of way.
Click to expand...

I would personally prefer " BUNCH OF SADO-MASOCHISTIC EXPLORERS OF ALTERNATE PATHS IN SEXUALITY". However, if you truly cannot do without "deviants", I'll not feel hurt too much.
I'd add that while there are a number of fans of Gorean role-playing, I've never met anyone involved in Draka role-playing (with or without impalements) :p
 

Nekromans

Diamond said:
Hey, thanks for the compliment. :rolleyes:
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Wait, so you're NOT a... never mind.

I think that the Draka aren't too bad in the last book. They've united Earth under a single government, everyone except the slaves are free, and the slaves don't mind.

But that's not the point. The point is that the ends almost never justify the means, and especially not when you look at the horrors the Draka put the world through to get to their "Final Society".

So, really, the Draka are only nice to you once they've enslaved you. And that's just not nice.
 

SunilTanna

Nek said:
Wait, so you're NOT a... never mind.

I think that the Draka aren't too bad in the last book. They've united Earth under a single government, everyone except the slaves are free, and the slaves don't mind.

But that's not the point. The point is that the ends almost never justify the means, and especially not when you look at the horrors the Draka put the world through to get to their "Final Society".

So, really, the Draka are only nice to you once they've enslaved you. And that's just not nice.
Click to expand...

My original point was that the Final Society is not too bad. I can easily imagine far worse societies.

If you want to talk about means: imagine the Samothracians were in a position to liberate the Earth.

How much misery who their "liberation" cause? To both Draka, Homo Servus and Ghouloons?

In fact, you could make the same argument from about the 1970s onwards about the Alliance.

Remember these "liberations", would be liberating people who don't want to be liberated.
 

Susano

Banned
Redem said:
So basicly it's better for the draka to have completly destroy the will of the serf and overall individuallity in order to make their vision of the world viable than if the serf than simply opress them the good old fashion way? (I'm not sure it's the right section, but the discussion is interesting). Somewhere it's kinda like brave new world, people are not free but they are unbelivably happy.
Click to expand...

Well, yes, it is. Compared to torture and domination for the sake of tortrue and domination as in 1984, it is certainly much better.
 

MerryPrankster

Aren't the Gor novels incredibly badly written?

Someone read from one at an SF convention as an example of how NOT to write. The opening sentence was 500 words long.
 

Paladin

Yeah, I stumbled across one at a used-book store, and I couldn't get past the first page. From what I can tell, it's just a vehicle for Norman to talk about his rather odd ideas on sex and slavery. Weird stuff.
 

RealityBYTES

The Draka's Final Society isn't "too bad" because the serfs have been genetically altered since the end of the Final War to become servus — they've been stripped of any "aggressive" tendencies and made highly sensitive to Draka pheromones. IOW, most of them couldn't rebel or fight back even if they wanted to, not after 442 years of such enslavement ("Drakon" begins in 2442 AD, approximately 443 years after the end of the main fighting in the Final War against the Alliance, and 410 years or so after the Alliance resistance/guerrilla/partisan forces would have been eliminated).

They're basically utility workers and pets who have never known true freedom.

RealityBYTES
 

Max Sinister

Banned
Nek said:
I think that the Draka aren't too bad in the last book. They've united Earth under a single government, everyone except the slaves are free, and the slaves don't mind.

But that's not the point. The point is that the ends almost never justify the means, and especially not when you look at the horrors the Draka put the world through to get to their "Final Society".
Click to expand...

And more important: You can't make an omelet without breaking eggs, but you can also break some eggs - even all of the world - without making a single omelet.
 

RealityBYTES

SunilTanna said:
My original point was that the Final Society is not too bad. I can easily imagine far worse societies.

If you want to talk about means: imagine the Samothracians were in a position to liberate the Earth.

How much misery who their "liberation" cause? To both Draka, Homo Servus and Ghouloons?
Click to expand...

Considering that the Draka are now spreading their poison into bordering timelines *and* are drawing up plans for galactic domination in their own timeline, it'd really have to be impressive to get me to give a damn for what happens to them as a whole. Sure, there might be a few "good" Drakensis (ala Eric von Shrakenberg), but that'd be one or two or three good apples in a barrel that's otherwise thoroughly rotten.

Remember, these "liberations" would be liberating people who don't want to be liberated.
Click to expand...

You're probably right, if you're referring to Earth, circa 2442 AD.

The Draka by that time have had close to 450 years to impose their will on the entirety of not only the planet, but the Solar System as well. One of the ways they've achieved this is by genetically altering their human serfs into human-like servus, who are meek, eager to please and highly sensitive to their masters' pheromones. IOW, folks who likely couldn't rebel or fight back, even if they wanted to.

It's a different story, though, if you're talking about the pre-Final War era on Earth. From what I could tell while reading S.M. Stirling's novels set in that time period, it wasn't uncommon for serfs to yearn for their freedom and, on occasion, rise up against their masters.

So what changed between those two eras? What made the serfs so willingly accept their enslavement? The rules of the game were changed on them, that's what. They were genetically altered against their will. I bet it was pretty sad for some of the "normal" human serfs to give birth to the first generation of "servus" serfs, destined to be "biobots" used only for work, sexual pleasure and occasional non-sexual companionship by their Draka overlords.

Last, but not least, don't think I don't like S.M. Stirling's Draka universe. Quite the opposite, but am I ever so glad it's pure fiction. It makes one cherish the freedoms we have for real — freedoms that can be taken away if we're not vigilant.

RealityBYTES
 

David bar Elias

Haggis said:
What the hell are Ghouloons? Sorry, just been wondering for a while.
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They're genetically engineered creatures (created by the Draka) that combines baboon, leopard, and human DNA to create a monsterous beast that's used for canon fodder; created in the 1970s in the Drakaverse.
 
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