Without the rise of the Nazis, would the Weimar government have fallen to the anti-democratic monarchists instead?
- Thread starter KaiserKatze
- Start date
The Weimar republic was unloved by own politician, that Irony of History
The last years of republic, the democracy was hollow out by Hindenburg with special powers gain to him.
It was matter of time until someone take over and bury the republic and begin a dictatorship like Adolf...
But let remove the Austrian from equation, what will happen ?
No NSDAP this let empty slot in Fare Right in German politic, one the DNVP can fill in ?
Nope, so much Hugenberg can pump money into DNVP they never gain popularity like the NSDAP had with Adolf !
The communist and left parties were at odds with each other and internal with each other.
This will be also same faith for Far right politic in Weimar.
Will Emperor step in ? No
Wilhelm II not believe into weimar republic, He beliefe that needed additional dictatorship, before the Germans wanted him back.
As his son Wilhelm III ask permission to be DNVP candidate for 1932 election President of Republic.
The Former Emperor forbid this and threaten to expel his son from family and his title.
Heinrich Brüning try to install Monarchy in Germany with help of Grandson Willhelm IV and Hindenburg (so Brüning account)
But President Hindenburg refuse to give up his power and Wilhelm IV was expel out his Family by Emperor, do marriage.
So who remains ?
The Conservative and monarchist in Reichstag: the Zentrum Partei with people like Heinrich Brüning.
They could gain majority in election for Reichstag and once Hindenburg died in 1934,
Bury the republic install Monarchy in Germany, ignoring the House of Hohenzollern and install another House as King.
Either Bavarian or from Sachsen and Coburg...
The last years of republic, the democracy was hollow out by Hindenburg with special powers gain to him.
It was matter of time until someone take over and bury the republic and begin a dictatorship like Adolf...
But let remove the Austrian from equation, what will happen ?
No NSDAP this let empty slot in Fare Right in German politic, one the DNVP can fill in ?
Nope, so much Hugenberg can pump money into DNVP they never gain popularity like the NSDAP had with Adolf !
The communist and left parties were at odds with each other and internal with each other.
This will be also same faith for Far right politic in Weimar.
Will Emperor step in ? No
Wilhelm II not believe into weimar republic, He beliefe that needed additional dictatorship, before the Germans wanted him back.
As his son Wilhelm III ask permission to be DNVP candidate for 1932 election President of Republic.
The Former Emperor forbid this and threaten to expel his son from family and his title.
Heinrich Brüning try to install Monarchy in Germany with help of Grandson Willhelm IV and Hindenburg (so Brüning account)
But President Hindenburg refuse to give up his power and Wilhelm IV was expel out his Family by Emperor, do marriage.
So who remains ?
The Conservative and monarchist in Reichstag: the Zentrum Partei with people like Heinrich Brüning.
They could gain majority in election for Reichstag and once Hindenburg died in 1934,
Bury the republic install Monarchy in Germany, ignoring the House of Hohenzollern and install another House as King.
Either Bavarian or from Sachsen and Coburg...
Agree. When we remove Hitler far-right wing have not such uniting character. There would be several competing wannabe führers. So WR will with some way go forward altough might be bit authotarian and perhaps even experience some military dictatorship but it will eventually stabilise and democratise.
My guy is just that dedicated to destroying any semblance of the German Empire, holy shit
@Augenis already explained in some detail how difficult that would be given the heterogeneity of the German right at the time.
Pretty much this, but I also think there is a non-zero chance of the Communists managing to do it with the proper set of events. The KPD was nothing to sneer at in the November '32 elections, and there was pretty strong cross-pollination between NSDAP street activists and KPD ones in the battle for getting the working class vote in major cities. With a bungled military coup or some other set of events, I could perhaps see the communists managing to kill the Republic.
Weimar was a dead turkey that was headed for dissolution and anarchy or dictatorship. It’s only chance of survival was aggressively standing against the ToV even if it meant another war that would lead to the whole occupation of the country.
Germany would have been far better off not signing the ToV and fighting on in WW1 until they were fully occupied. The idiocy of the ToV is that it was a treaty you hand to a conquered nation. WW1 Germany was beaten not conquered. There is a big difference.
Germany would have been far better off not signing the ToV and fighting on in WW1 until they were fully occupied. The idiocy of the ToV is that it was a treaty you hand to a conquered nation. WW1 Germany was beaten not conquered. There is a big difference.
Garrison
Donor
But since history is different you can't simply assume that remains the same as well. If the Nazis aren't there that creates an opportunity, and I honestly think that the only other likely outcome is as @Ulyanovsk suggests the KPD getting its act together.
Difference without a distinction. The Entente just didn't see any good reason to shed the blood needed to fight all the way to Berlin when they could get everything they wanted courtesy of the Armistice. Had Germany insisted on fighting on they would have faced something far harsher than OTL Versailles when the peace was made.
You say that while assuming that someone must successfully unite the German right.
Not sure that is true, but psychologically there is a world of difference between losing a war on someone else's soil and losing a war on your own.
A comparable situation would be if the French Army and Prussians fought almost exclusively in say Belgium and on each other's borders during the Franco-Prussian War and Berlin forced onto France the same peace treaty after the French Army cracks in Belgium. Within twenty years France and Germany would have been back at war again.
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Wilhelm II was truly convinced that the monarchy was a God-given institution and therefore came with an honor. Breaking one's word (by first being sworn in on the republican constitution and then breaking it) was for him a profound violation of that honor. He could only imagine a restoration by legal means, by the people asking the Hohenzollern again.
This is a non-necessary inference from historical events to possibilities. Weimar was no more unstable during the 1920s than France or the United Kingdom, especially from 1923 onward. Even in early January 1933, many contemporaries saw the republic as being back on track, and Hitler was already seen as descending to the status of a Bavarian tavern shouter. There was nothing close to anarchy; the state was still quite functional (as the Nazis were then to prove impressively).
He even gave order that his remnants shall not be re-buried to Germany before monarchy is restored. I guess that his bones have yet wait very very long time.
True. Weimar Germany wasn't most stable nation but it was still far from failed state. It had indeed some chances to recover and fix its shits.
Irony of History:
The KPD activists clash with SA (from NSDAP) who member were mostly ex-Communist and ex-Socalist.
Left in Weimar Germany was splinter and odds with each other
KPD were loosing there member to other parties like
the Kommunistische Arbeiter-Partei Deutschlands (KAPD) or Kommunistische Partei Deutschlands (Opposition), generally abbreviated KPD(O)
The SPD were loosing voters since 1919 and went down to 18% in Reichstag in 1933
to make matter worst internal conflict let Separation
like in 1931 founded the Sozialistische Arbeiterpartei Deutschlands (SAPD).
next to the Unabhängige Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands (USPD) founded 1915 in protest of WW1.
and Alte Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands (ASPD) founded 1927.
Far Right without Hitler would similar fracture, into dozen parties constantly in odds with each other.
And with thirty of those parties, German voters will take one that promise to end this madness, in 1930s that was Hitler with NSDAP.
But without Hitler who is alternative ?
The German Conservatives like Zentrum Partei, Bayerische Volkspartei, Christliche Volkspartei and Deutschnationale Volkspartei with others,
Manage to build coalition with same goal, they could get majority in Reichtags elections over SPD and KPD in 1933.
and bury Weimar republic and install Monarchy, follow by termination of Treaty of Versailles...
The KPD would be more likely to be stronger electorally without the NSDAP to rival it in the cities, fighting for the same street corners to cater to the same down and out workers and lumpenproletariat though, no? The KPD may have been losing members to the KAPD and KPD(O), but they certainly were gaining electorally in the early 1930s. Would it not be feasible for them to be more viable in a political environment without the NSDAP instead of fracturing in the face of Nazi power?
Anyways, if there's a successful military coup, do you think Germany is going to go to war against Poland (after of course rearming sufficiently to launch such a war) to try to reacquire the pre-WWI German territory?
Almost certainly. But it will stay a limited war, because the German objective will be to secure a landbridge to East Prussia.