WI: William Marshal kills Richard in 1189

I think Philippe Auguste could give Aquitaine to the Alix of Champagne, eldest daughter of Henri of Champagne provided that he is the one who would chose her husband(a man that he could control)..

I think Philippe could marry Eleanor of Brittany to Louis since Constance is an ally of Philippe..and claim all of the plantagenet inheritance..

Alix is in Jérusalem, half a world away, and with many other problems. If there is no Crusade ITTL, her claims would be forgotten by everyone.

I totally agree with the Eleanor-Louis match, provided John does not get control of his "beloved nephews" in the first place.
 
Alix is in Jérusalem, half a world away, and with many other problems. If there is no Crusade ITTL, her claims would be forgotten by everyone.

I totally agree with the Eleanor-Louis match, provided John does not get control of his "beloved nephews" in the first place.
Constance is for the Eleanor-Louis match..the problem is that John and Eleanor of Aquitaine created the treaty of Le Goulet...during the reign of Richard, Constance put Arthur in the care of Philippe, in this case Eleanor and Arthur gets fostered by Philippe with the support of Constance, as long as Constance is alive, Arthur is strong enough to fight against John..
 
Constance is for the Eleanor-Louis match..the problem is that John and Eleanor of Aquitaine created the treaty of Le Goulet...during the reign of Richard, Constance put Arthur in the care of Philippe, in this case Eleanor and Arthur gets fostered by Philippe with the support of Constance, as long as Constance is alive, Arthur is strong enough to fight against John..

Le Goulet is likely to be butterflied away. Sadly, so does Château-Gaillard, one of the finest castles in Europe.
 
Militarily Philip defining battle is Bouvines, john's is la Roche aux moines. Quite a difference.
John has several successful military campains too... I will mention the ones against the Scots and the Welsh, against Arthur and during the Baron war, plus the "naval" battle at Damme were he (actually his half brother William Longespee) destroyed the French fleet and Augustus plans of invasion.

Still, most of these campaigns were less the reult of his personal military prowess than the consequences of favorable conjectures, overwelming force or good delegates.
 
John has several successful military campains too... I will mention the ones against the Scots and the Welsh, against Arthur and during the Baron war, plus the "naval" battle at Damme were he (actually his half brother William Longespee) destroyed the French fleet and Augustus plans of invasion.

Still, most of these campaigns were less the reult of his personal military prowess than the consequences of favorable conjectures, overwelming force or good delegates.

Yes, and Phillip had some less than successful campaigns against Richard and was once saved only by the pope imposing a truce (after he narrowly escaped being captured/killed and lost his personal bagages to the English).

That's why I wrote 'defining' battles. These are the first battles that come to mind (to me at least) when thinking of Philip and John military campaigns.
 
Yes, and Phillip had some less than successful campaigns against Richard and was once saved only by the pope imposing a truce (after he narrowly escaped being captured/killed and lost his personal bagages to the English).

That's why I wrote 'defining' battles. These are the first battles that come to mind (to me at least) when thinking of Philip and John military campaigns.

Bouvines is indeed the pinnacle of Philip's military carrier and, AFAIK, his last one. It was indeed a crucial battle (however less than accredited by French historiography/propaganda) as a crushing defeat will set back most of Philip's achievements, but I do not believed that this will mean the end of the Kingdom of France. Still, the history will be massively changed (the immediate consequences were: Magna Carta, Otto's downfall and Frederick success, Flandres back in line, Anjou and Normandy kept, France on the railroad to centralization, a tremendous increase in national conscience among the people of France, etc., etc. Without all these, the history will be very different).

Now, Philip indeed was a tremendously spoiled boy and do not had the physical and mental constitution for being a great warrior. However, he learned from his errors and little by little he overcome his lacks. Philip was truly a gifted person, a genius. Think that he was almost illiterate in Latin (and other languages) but his amassing talent of diplomacy help him to do the unthinkable. And at very young age. He became King at 14 and immediately he faced massive challenges. He succeeded to turn off the massive coalition against him by playing the opposing members one against each-other. At the funking age of 14!

Richard was also a very gifted person and the only one who could succeed against Philip. Because he was so brilliant (on the battlefield because little care about his poetry in Occitain), carried a huge amount of prestige by Crusading and was also very diplomat: he was the one who had build the anti-French alliance in the first hand, alliance destroyed by John in the beginning and resurrected later (well, the credit of Reginald de Boulogne). Richard reverted Philip's gains and even make some on his turn before kicking the bucket.

Without Richard in the scene... Johns is screwed. I might have being to harsh by calling him "not particularly intelligent" (which by the way do not mean that he was stupid), however, tell me 3 actions in which he acted brilliantly. I will give you one, even if it is disputed (in the eyes of his vassals was seen as atrocious): he called peace with Innocent III and submit to him as vassal, paying tribute. His barons saw in this act a surrender of universality (which indeed it was, as the Papal Legate become the man of decision in England) and an humiliation (which also indeed it was).

There is a huge movement of revisionism in today history (I do not refer to 20 century revisionism) which I do not agree at all. The modern historians love to "demolish myths" saying that that King was not so good because this and that, while the other one was not so bad, even he was quite good (even if the contemporary believe otherwise). Richard main critics are that he do not give attention to England, while spending all in Crusade and war on France, judging with hindsight and applying modern standards. But England was only one of his titles and it was the safest, while all other were under the siege and in great threat. He was also Duke of Aquitaine and Normandy and count of Anjou, and so on. The 12-13th century English strategic interests were across the Channel, in Aquitaine and Brittany and Anjou and Normandy and Flanders. Not going in Crussade was unacceptable for a king of his taille and the prestige he bring back for England and for his dynasty was huge. If he do not go in Holy Land and Philip will not go either (fearing of him), than maybe Saladin will overrun the entire Kingdom of Jerusalem and the Europeans will loose the contacts with Levant far earlier, not being in contact with the Mongols. Maybe this will means a very different Renaissance, a very different age of exploration... maybe a very different Europe in which England will never run the waves and we will speak now on this thread God know in which language! We can never know!

In this scenario, I believe that John will lose all his continental lands, once Alienor will die and Philip will move sky and earth to keep the duchy for his family and close to the crown. He will be younger and with a far better position. By 1200, both Normandy and Anjou could have being already lost and Aquitaine was on the plate. maybe he will play with Arthur for challenging John but I am pretty much certain that he will drop him in order to make a deal with John. He will not want to replace an ogre with another (allowing Arthur to keep Brittany, the Plantagenet French lands and to win the English crown too). Maybe, he will become Arthur the first but he will have by this date only Brittany on the continent.

Or, maybe John will suddenly become a great king, will defeat Philip in battle and on diplomacy field, will keep his vassals happy and will add Flanders and Toulouse under the Plantagenet umbrella. Maybe one of his sons will become Holy Roman Emperor and France will be crushed and England border will be on Meuse and Rhone... His grandson, King John from the House of Plantagenet will be, by the Grace of God, King John I of France, the II of England, Suzerain (or maybe King too) of Scotland, Lord of Ireland, Duke of Aquitaine, Normandy and Brittany, count of Anjou, Toulouse and Champagne... :)))
 
. I will give you one, even if it is disputed (in the eyes of his vassals was seen as atrocious): he called peace with Innocent III and submit to him as vassal, paying tribute. His barons saw in this act a surrender of universality (which indeed it was, as the Papal Legate become the man of decision in England) and an humiliation (which also indeed it was).

...
Or, maybe John will suddenly become a great king, will defeat Philip in battle and on diplomacy field, will keep his vassals happy and will add Flanders and Toulouse under the Plantagenet umbrella. Maybe one of his sons will become Holy Roman Emperor and France will be crushed and England border will be on Meuse and Rhone... His grandson, King John from the House of Plantagenet will be, by the Grace of God, King John I of France, the II of England, Suzerain (or maybe King too) of Scotland, Lord of Ireland, Duke of Aquitaine, Normandy and Brittany, count of Anjou, Toulouse and Champagne... :)))

Funnily enough, John's son became King of Germany, and only needed Papal coronation to become Holy Roman Emperor, which could easily have happened, and his grandson was suzerain of Scotland, ruler of Wales and Ireland, and was recognized by the king of France as Duke of Aquitaine.

Anyway, another brilliant move from John that doesn't get enough credit for is relieving the siege of Eleanor of Aquitaine by Arthur. Austin Poole, in his book, Domesday Book to Magna Carta, 1187-1215, states "John in one of those fits of violent energy of which he was sometimes capable, with almost incredible speed--he covered the ground between Le Mans and Mirabeau, a distance of well over eighty miles, in 48 hours--descended on the castle, relieved it, and killed or captured the besiegers." In the process, he captured Arthur, and 200 and more captives. It was the last triumph of an English king in French soil until the time of Edward III.

In the process, he ruined the plans of Philip II of giving the continental possession to Arthur in opposition to John and upset the plans of John's opposition.

Too bad he had Arthur murdered, and set back all his gains...

But that goes to show that John was capable of being competent, and even brilliance. He's not 100% incompetent. And as you said, his actions in Wales, Scotland and Ireland were successful, and Austin Poole states, "no medieval king before or since his time death more successfully with the Welsh, the Scots, or the Irish".

And yeah, his submission to Innocent was brilliant. Why? It divided his enemies. It undercut his baronial opposition by removing the support of the Church to opposition his rule, and placed them in a moral dilemma. So what if it's a humiliation? Was it anymore humiliating that Henry II being flogged for Becket's murder? Yet it both cases, it saved the king his throne, placed himself at the Pope's protection. And gained the Church's unflinching support against the Barons and the French.

And nothing practical was given up. As for the tribute, John paid a little, then did not pay anything else. Innocent III simply forgot about it. So what practically was that John paid a little bribe to Innocent and Innocent for a purely theoretical overlordship supported John all the way.

So there's three brilliant maneuvers.
 
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Why we are so sure about a conflict between John and Philip? Philip's sister Alais was engaged to Richard (who had likely already decided against marry her thinking she was his father's lover) but John was likely more than willing to marry her and her rich dowry and Philip also wanted that wedding and the Crusade was already called. So is likely who Constance will take her children under Philip's protection (and likely Eleanor of Brittany will be engaged to the Dauphin), John will marry Alais of France and keep her lands, John and Philip will go at the Crusade without making war to each other and the Crusade will be a lot more friendly between the leaders and likely less successful. Eleanor of Aquitaine will be freed by John, but likely she will be sent back in Aquitaine to rule her own lands or in any case forced to share the regency with Queen Alais. Without Richard in the Holy Lands is unlikely who Henry of Champagne will ever marry Isabella of Jerusalem (and Isabella herself is not assured of the Crown... Maybe Guy can die instead of Sybilla or their daughters can survive and Isabella will be a much less logical choice as Queen, considering who she is still married with her first (not useful) husband (and Henri of Champagne was the third)
 
Funnily enough, John's son became King of Germany, and only needed Papal coronation to become Holy Roman Emperor, which could easily have happened, and his grandson was suzerain of Scotland, ruler of Wales and Ireland, and was recognized by the king of France as Duke of Aquitaine.

Yah, I know! I was just a little ironic :)))

Anyway, another brilliant move from John that doesn't get enough credit for is relieving the siege of Eleanor of Aquitaine by Arthur. Austin Poole, in his book, Domesday Book to Magna Carta, 1187-1215, states "John in one of those fits of violent energy of which he was sometimes capable, with almost incredible speed--he covered the ground between Le Mans and Mirabeau, a distance of well over eighty miles, in 48 hours--descended on the castle, relieved it, and killed or captured the besiegers." In the process, he captured Arthur, and 200 and more captives. It was the last triumph of an English king in French soil until the time of Edward III.

In the process, he ruined the plans of Philip II of giving the continental possession to Arthur in opposition to John and upset the plans of John's opposition.
Well... this act, while briliant, it was not one of his. Arthur was seized by William de Braose, lord of Brecon, who delivered him to John.
Too bad he had Arthur murdered, and set back all his gains...
This was monumental stupid from his side, next to kidnapping Isabelle...
But that goes to show that John was capable of being competent, and even brilliance. He's not 100% incompetent. And as you said, his actions in Wales, Scotland and Ireland were successful, and Austin Poole states, "no medieval king before or since his time death more successfully with the Welsh, the Scots, or the Irish".
With Welsh... yes he defeat them and subdue them. But not totally as the Welsh remained in power while Llewellyn was even strengthened (If I remember well, he married one of John bastard daughters). Eduard I was efficient with the Welsh... With the Scots, also he was indeed successful, crushing them. However, it was a limited success. It do not reinstalled the suzerainty over Scotland Henry II achieved (Treaty of Falaise) and Richard give it away for money. With the Irish... John was sent to Ireland by his father and do nothing than alienating both the Irish and the Norman lords. He returned to England blaming others. Later, he re-invade it and crushed the resistance.

So... yah, he was quite successful.

And yeah, his submission to Innocent was brilliant. Why? It divided his enemies. It undercut his baronial opposition by removing the support of the Church to his rule, and placed them in a moral dilemma. So what if it's a humiliation? Was it anymore humiliating that Henry II being flogged for Becket's murder? Yet it both cases, it saved the king his throne, placed himself at the Pope's protection. And gained the Church's unflinching support against the Barons and the French.

And nothing practical was given up. As for the tribute, John paid a little, then did not pay anything else. Innocent III simply forgot about it. So what practically was that John paid a little bribe to Innocent and Innocent for a purely theoretical overlordship supported John all the way.
I agree it was a good movement.
So there's three brilliant maneuvers.

Just two... the first it was not his. :)
 
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Why we are so sure about a conflict between John and Philip? Philip's sister Alais was engaged to Richard (who had likely already decided against marry her thinking she was his father's lover) but John was likely more than willing to marry her and her rich dowry and Philip also wanted that wedding and the Crusade was already called. So is likely who Constance will take her children under Philip's protection (and likely Eleanor of Brittany will be engaged to the Dauphin), John will marry Alais of France and keep her lands, John and Philip will go at the Crusade without making war to each other and the Crusade will be a lot more friendly between the leaders and likely less successful. Eleanor of Aquitaine will be freed by John, but likely she will be sent back in Aquitaine to rule her own lands or in any case forced to share the regency with Queen Alais. Without Richard in the Holy Lands is unlikely who Henry of Champagne will ever marry Isabella of Jerusalem (and Isabella herself is not assured of the Crown... Maybe Guy can die instead of Sybilla or their daughters can survive and Isabella will be a much less logical choice as Queen, considering who she is still married with her first (not useful) husband (and Henri of Champagne was the third)

Because Philip will make war with however will seat on the throne of England and held great land in France. Remember that Richard was his best friend and fought together against his father (some say that they were more than friends...:p ). In the moment Richard become king, Philip start machinations against him, using his brother John... John was so well manipulated by Philip, while he hated his brother, than he committed treason, being pardoned by his brother who could very well hang him without anybody will move a finger for his support!

So... Whatever Plantagenet become king, he will become enemy number one of Philip Augustus. Whenever he will be named Richard, Geoffrey, John or Arthur.
 
Just two... the first it was not his. :)

Well, his forced March to rescue Eleanor from Arthur was still brilliant. Arthur thought that he was safe since John was so far away so he could besiege his grandmother. And Arthur was captured as a result of that March. Remember that William was in John's service, and he would not have captured Arthur if John did not march 80 miles in 48 hours, since there would be his army to protect Arthur. John surprised all of them by his speed, defeated the army, and captured the entire rebel leadership, including, probably, Arthur's sister Eleanor of Brittany. So even if John did not personally capture him, I still credit John for that move.

If only he didn't murder Arthur...
 
Well, his forced March to rescue Eleanor from Arthur was still brilliant. Arthur thought that he was safe since John was so far away so he could besiege his grandmother. And Arthur was captured as a result of that March. Remember that William was in John's service, and he would not have captured Arthur if John did not march 80 miles in 48 hours, since there would be his army to protect Arthur. John surprised all of them by his speed, defeated the army, and captured the entire rebel leadership, including, probably, Arthur's sister Eleanor of Brittany. So even if John did not personally capture him, I still credit John for that move.

If only he didn't murder Arthur...

I did not find anywhere the fact that John in person do that march... I indeed do not read Austin Poole...
 
I did not find anywhere the fact that John in person do that march... I indeed do not read Austin Poole...

Well, Wiki also said that he was accompanied by William de Roches.... I do not know from were I had this impression that he was not physically present at the Battle, but stayed in Le Mans. My Bad!

Would this make John brilliant? I do not thinks so... He took more stupid decisions that good ones and by the end, he took the best decision of his entire life: to drink that dam ale! (if we choose to believe that his dysentery was caused by drinking fresh ale).

So, I admit! 4 brilliant actions! :)
 
I did not find anywhere the fact that John in person do that march... I indeed do not read Austin Poole...

All the sources that I've read, and all the book, state that John personally led that 80 mile march in two days that surprised Arthur. Even Wikipedia had John present in the Battle of Mirebeau and he was the one who directed the march. It was stated that when he heard that his mother was being besieged, John hurried as fast as possible to rescue her.
 
Would this make John brilliant? I do not thinks so... He took more stupid decisions that good ones and by the end, he took the best decision of his entire life: to drink that dam ale! (if we choose to believe that his dysentery was caused by drinking fresh ale).

So, I admit! 4 brilliant actions! :)

It only meant that he could take brilliant actions, and he could take stupid actions. So he was not particularly stupid. Some of his actions paid off, while other backfired horribly.

In fact, if Philip lost Bouvines (and Philip could easily have lost), all the diplomacy that John conducted to create that coalition to contain Philip (Otto IV, Flanders, Boulogne, Innocent III, etc) and his diversionary invasion of Western France to divide French and prevent Louis VIII from helping his father, would be considered brilliant, and would vindicate all his policies after 1204.
 
It only meant that he could take brilliant actions, and he could take stupid actions. So he was not particularly stupid. Some of his actions paid off, while other backfired horribly.

In fact, if Philip lost Bouvines (and Philip could easily have lost), all the diplomacy that John conducted to create that coalition to contain Philip (Otto IV, Flanders, Boulogne, Innocent III, etc) and his diversionary invasion of Western France to divide French and prevent Louis VIII from helping his father, would be considered brilliant, and would vindicate all his policies after 1204.

I did not said that he was stupid. Just that he was not brilliant, while he faced a very brilliant king, committed to screw him.
 
Meanwhile, the Third Crusade needs a new English leader. How about Marshall himself, who maybe feels some pangs of guilt from killing the man who would have been his future king. Although Marshall, like Richard, was a good field general, so there are good chances of a partial success as in OTL, there would be all manner of butterflies. A few: unless briefed otherwise by Henry, Marshall would have no reason to provoke a fight with the Normans in Sicily. The capture of Cyprus might also not happen since there wouldn't be a ship carrying Richard's female relatives to land there. Marshall, unlike Richard, could stay in the Holy Land either for life or at least for a much longer time. If he did leave, he might get back without problems, and even if captured his ransom would be much cheaper than Richard's.
 
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