WI: William Marshal kills Richard in 1189

In 1189, while Henry II was fleeing from Philip II, King of France, and his son Richard, who rebelled against his father, William Marshal, while covering the retreat of King Henry, unhorsed Richard. He could easily have killed him, but instead, killed Richard's horse. What if during that skirmish, Richard was killed by Marshal, either accidentally or not.

Who would be king of England when Henry II dies a days later? John, I presume, would be king ten years earlier. Would he have gone to the crusade in the Holy Land? How does this affect the Third Crusade, and having John king from 1189?
 
I assume John would go on crusade but have a minor role.
If he survives I suspect he'll alienate the nobles like OTL leading them to invite someone else in as King - perhaps one of the Blois-Champagne line depending on when this occurs.
 
Oh my... This is a POD that might have massive and very rapid butterflies.
Everything can happens.
I agree with The Professor that he might join the crusade. However, he will play a minor role but I think that with far fewer troops and far less impact. So I thing that KoJ will have an harder time to recover or it will be completely overrun by Saladin.
Philip Augustus will have a far easier time to play his games and it might recover the Plantagenet lands earlier. He will certainly use Arthur (which will be only 3 years old) in order to challenge John which will probably piss of everybody as OTL. Ont he other hand, England will not pay for the royal ransom, so there will be less extortion.
Louis VIII might marry a different person than Blanche de Castille...

A lot, a lot of butterflies and very interesting.
 
Philip Augustus would want control of the Brittany children. Little Arthur is an evident counter to his uncle and young Alienor a promising bride for prince Louis. He could support Arthur in England against his uncle in exchange for control of the Plantagenet continental possessions, as a dowry for his sister, of course.
 
Philip Augustus would want control of the Brittany children. Little Arthur is an evident counter to his uncle and young Alienor a promising bride for prince Louis. He could support Arthur in England against his uncle in exchange for control of the Plantagenet continental possessions, as a dowry for his sister, of course.
Absolutely. It's possible that John will already know this (or his advisors) and move to already obtain them before his coronation.
 
I assume John would go on crusade but have a minor role.
If he survives I suspect he'll alienate the nobles like OTL leading them to invite someone else in as King - perhaps one of the Blois-Champagne line depending on when this occurs.
The Blois-Champagne line are also possible heirs of Eleanor of Aquitaine..
 
Absolutely. It's possible that John will already know this (or his advisors) and move to already obtain them before his coronation.
The Thing is Constance of Brittany is an ally of Philippe Auguste..her death weakened the claims of Arthur..Mathilde, the other daughter of Constance is the bride for Louis VIII since she is still alive at this point..
 
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So,how will Henry II himself play into this?How much longer would he live now that his archnemesis is dead?

More interestingly,how might Marshall be rewarded for his services?Wouldn't be surprised if Henry starts partying over his son's death.
 
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Great POD.

John would only be about 20 and not terribly experienced. John had shifted allegiances once he felt that Richard was going to win and once Richard is killed he will be back begging forgiveness from Henry very shortly.

Then Henry dies and John comes off as a bit weak, young but obviously the most clear-cut candidate. He wasn't marred by the scandals of having tried to rebel against a sitting king as much as he, in fact, was after Richard's death OTL, so that'll probably soon be forgotten, just a bleep on the radar compared to what Richard and The Young King has done.

Now, 3-year old Arthur of Brittany can and will probably be used as a counter, as mentioned above, but once John frees his mum (Eleanor) she will do exactly the same she did for Richard and move heaven and earth to secure backing for the new king, and her last surviving male child.

Marshal would support the sitting regime.

I feel pretty confident given her record OTL that as long as Eleanor is alive, and Marshal back in the fold, John will be king, and pretty quickly at that. Coronation July 1189 or thereabouts.

I'm not so sure John would go on crusade, though, despite the threats to the (rump) Holy Land. I think he'd find all sorts of excuses. And Phillip A is probably to clever to go anywhere without John out of the way, so he stays and finds some excuse of starting to chip away at the Angevin realm. A younger and less experienced John wouldn't likely do much better, probably worse, than John OTL in keeping the French lands.

The economy might be better because Richard's ransom stays in the coffers but gets used for more wars instead. If John doesn't get killed in action, expect him to be pretty much out of the continent by 1200. Aquitaine might even fall, too, once Eleanor is gone. If the 'drive' in John, or what you call it, is there for him to behave more or less OTL-ish, we would have Baron's War-conditions in England in the early 1200's if not before.

Louis VIII is too young to really take advantage of it at that time, but perhaps Phillip Augustus would? I see either a French invasion in the 1200's or England split up between warring factions for the 1200-1210's duration, which allows Phillip to quietly take the rest of Aquitaine without too much interference.

If Arthur survives/is removed from John's influence early on and John is killed, either in the near-certain war against Phillip A, or in the Baronial Wars sometime before 1210, then Arthur could be the man back in England at that time to take control, probably helped by Marshal. It might be a replay of Louis' intervention OTL but with 'the real king' returning (i.e. of the Plantagenet-line), just like in the myths. Well, kind of :)

With Arthur's family in charge for the foreseeable future, how would their policies differ towards France? That would be the big question. But even if you have an unstable, de facto leaderless England for a while in the early 1200s or if you have Arthur's line in charge, you must certainly have butterflied away the Hundred Year's War, and that would mean Major Changes down the road ...

*

Edit: I don't recall the timing of John's shifting of allegiance in the war between H2 and Richard. Was it before or after the unhorsing? Maybe it doesn't matter that much.

More importantly is probably what Eleanor is going to do about Marshal when she learns he has killed her 'favorite' son, even if in legitimate battle. She might push John to have him executed to make an example, but I'm not so sure. Eleanor was pragmatic if nothing else. She might have wanted Marshal sidelined for some years, until she was too old to influence much and John had too great a need of Marshal's experience to resist calling him back to service.

Not that I would to hinge everything on one person, but it'd be a major loss to the war-effort if Marshal is sent to the axe, or just exiled in the Angevin backwaters somewhere, while John and Phillip duke it out in the early 1190s.
 
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The Thing is Constance of Brittany is an ally of Philippe Auguste..her death weakened the claims of Arthur..Mathilde, the other daughter of Constance is the bride for Louis VIII since she is still alive at this point..

Mathilde was already dead (before may) at the time of Richard's encounter with Marshall (june or july). But Alienor is still available if Constance manages to stay out of John's reach. With a Louis-Alienor match, especially if Arthur reaches an untimely death, Philip Augustus hold all the cards.
 
John's reign absent the crippling financial ruin Richard's Crusade/ransom left is an entirely different one. Like night and day. Everyone's focusing on the cost to his prestige his shenanigans led to, but really that was pretty standard fare for Plantagenets...remember the king he conspired against conspired against his own father several times, as did brothers Geoffrey and young Henry. It's only highlighted with John because of what came after.

It was the financial crisis that motivated so much of what John's vassals hated, the constant legal manoeuvring for capital, the willingness to support lesser ranked but wealthier supporters, the 'infringing' on ecclesiastical revenue. That all stems from his starting position. It's like asking what kind of King Charles I would make if religion wasn't an issue, or Stephen if he doesn't get all gallant with Maude at Arundel; Something very different from what we know...maybe good, maybe bad, but an entirely different creature.

Militarily, he's not nearly as bad as some suggest...he's on a par with Phillip, IMO (just in that sphere...Phiilip's greatest gift there was patience, and it was England's poverty/disruptions that allowed that to work.) He'/ probably a lot like his father as a commander,less like his brilliant brother. Better administrator than Richard. So the continental possession war could go either way.

It's really hard to determine. But I don't think just taking his OT reign's character and bumping it back in time is all that sound.
 
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John is still highly emotionaly unstable and unable to keep good relationships with his vassals. It's not the poverty which led to his demise but his arbitrary rule, his personal flowed character (wich could be different in TTL when he become king earlier) and the insucces in war. He was called softsword for a reason...
He was a spolied boy of not particularly intelligence (but in no way stupid) wich already grow up in an ambiance of betrayal and envy.
Immagine a spoiled boy of a great bilionaire despised by all his three older brothers and his mother, wich received as part of his inheritance a backward unprofitable company an suddently inherit EVERYTHING. At relatively young age! This was John.

Now, becoming king in 1189 could have both positives and negatives impacts over his character. However, I still beleive that he is no match for Philip Augustus! Philip was the best king France ever had... only a equally briliant Plantagenet king could outmatch him and Richard had a fair chance (grace of his military prowess) bu John... no way!

France had gobbled maximum it could from Plantagenets but with 10 more years... maybe Aquitaine will be made up in a nice appanage for one of Philip's son or grandson.
 
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John is still highly emotionaly unstable and unable to keep good relationships with his vassals. It's not the poverty which led to his demise but his arbitrary rule, his personal flowed character (wich could be different in TTL when he become king earlier) and the insucces in war. He was called softsword for a reason...
He was a spolied boy of not particularly intelligence (but in no way stupid) wich already grow up in an ambiance of betrayal and envy.
Immagine a spoiled boy of a great bilionaire despised by all his three older brothers and his mother, wich received as part of his inheritance a backward unprofitable company an suddently inherit EVERYTHING. At relatively young age! This was John.

Now, becoming king in 1189 could have both positives and negatives impacts over his character. However, I still beleive that he is no match for Philip Augustus! Philip was the best king France ever had... only a equally briliant Plantagenet king could outmatch him and Richard had a fair chance (grace of his military prowess) bu John... no way!

France had gobbled maximum it could from Plantagenets but with 10 more years... maybe Aquitaine will be made up in a nice appanage for one of Philip's son or grandson.

I agree Phillip was brilliant. Absolutely. But militarily he was...Tywin? He lead very cohesive, organized and purposeful troops, but never really showed any inspired brilliance. Part of that is the Age of the Siege, but I've always felt that his military talent takes a serious back step to his other talents, and compared with someone like Richard.

As for John, his character flaws are all brought down to us through the hindsight of his reign, and his reign was absolutely shaped by the financial situation, ESPECIALLY his 'inability to keep good relationships with his vassals', via such things as scuttage and inheritance taxes. The other factor is that he was fairly famously impious, and as with Rufus et al, we know that medieval monarchs who don't play nice with the Church receive notoriously bad press.

As far as his being despised, that's not especially true. He was his father's favourite son, we're told, as Richard was Eleanor's, and beyond that all the members of that family were in perpetual conflict with one another...Geoffrey hated Richard, who hated both Henrys, who hated Eleanor, etc. So this tells us nothing in particular about John. I'm not sure where you're getting that he's not particularly intelligent...normally even his detractors credit him with being very bright.
 
Do you find the act of kidnaping the young fiancee of one of his powerful vassal, act wich will cost him most of his French possetions particularly intelligent ?
Or killing his nephew in an age were this was absolutly abhorrent ?
Or letting the wife and the two sons of another vassal to die in prison by starvation for trivial reasons .? and so on...

Philip was not the best field general but he was a great tactician. his only sedbacks were in front of Richard who was brilliant on the battlefield. He had very successful campaigns facing terible odds: Against Flandres-Hainaut and Burgundy (in beginning of his reign) in condition when only Flandres could outmatch and outnumber him by large mean. Then in Normandy, Anjou, Brittany? Poitiou, Flanders again and, ofcourse Bouvines were he lead his troops and was two inches of being killed but he do not run nor was he coward.

Now, Philip had also his bad... very bad moments. Just to mention the episode of Ingeborg which nearly screw everything he had built.
 
Do you find the act of kidnaping the young fiancee of one of his powerful vassal, act wich will cost him most of his French possetions particularly intelligent ?
Or killing his nephew in an age were this was absolutly abhorrent ?
Or letting the wife and the two sons of another vassal to die in prison by starvation for trivial reasons .? and so on...

Philip was not the best field general but he was a great tactician. his only sedbacks were in front of Richard who was brilliant on the battlefield. He had very successful campaigns facing terible odds: Against Flandres-Hainaut and Burgundy (in beginning of his reign) in condition when only Flandres could outmatch and outnumber him by large mean. Then in Normandy, Anjou, Brittany? Poitiou, Flanders again and, ofcourse Bouvines were he lead his troops and was two inches of being killed but he do not run nor was he coward.

Now, Philip had also his bad... very bad moments. Just to mention the episode of Ingeborg which nearly screw everything he had built.

1) I don't think you can isolate actions like that re: intelligence. Having Beckett ~killed, alienating his sons, seducing his son's fiancé and then holding her random for her dowry all sound pretty dumb, but Henry II did them and is pretty universally regarded as a genius of his age. Richard has more than his share of 'd'oh' moments, and is likewise regarded as highly intelligent. The family were famous for their instability...the term Plantagenet rage is a thing...and for kinda doing/taking what they wanted and dealing with the consequences afterwards.

2) I think he was more what I'd call a sound administrative general, rather than a great tactician, but we might just have different uses for words. John has moments of military brilliance too, you know. His lightning march to save his mother from Arthur was something his brother/father would have been proud to have pulled off, for example. And even the Bouvines campaign had real nous in its conception, and it's failure can either be blamed on being too complex for the logistics of the time or simply his allies fucked up, but he himself held up his end. And I'll remind you, without his hands being tied financially by Richard's waste, he would never have had to make a gamble like that in the first place.

3) Phillip did have bad moments, as you say...but so did almost everyone, is my point. Alexander the Great killed one of his best generals/the man who saved his life in a drunken rage. His father had a former lover gangraped and then made him a bodyguard. Caesar enraged Rome with his Egytian romancing. And yet these are all unquestionably brilliant men.
 
I think Philippe-Auguste might do a maneuver for the Blois children to inherit Aquitaine instead of the Plantagenets..

After Richard, Geoffrey and John, the succession goes to Blois..


the succession of aquitaine goes like this..
-Sons of Eleanor with Henry II
-Daughters of Louis VII and Eleanor
-Daughters of Henry II with Eleanor
 

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As far as his being despised, that's not especially true. He was his father's favourite son, we're told, as Richard was Eleanor's, and beyond that all the members of that family were in perpetual conflict with one another...Geoffrey hated Richard, who hated both Henrys, who hated Eleanor, etc. So this tells us nothing in particular about John. I'm not sure where you're getting that he's not particularly intelligent...normally even his detractors credit him with being very bright.
I think he might be relying on the portrayal of John from The Lion in Winter -- not the most flattering one, to be frank, although nobody really comes off smelling of roses, in that one.
 
I think Philippe-Auguste might do a maneuver for the Blois children to inherit Aquitaine instead of the Plantagenets..

After Richard, Geoffrey and John, the succession goes to Blois..


the succession of aquitaine goes like this..
-Sons of Eleanor with Henry II
-Daughters of Louis VII and Eleanor
-Daughters of Henry II with Eleanor

The Champagne (Henri in Jerusalem and Thibault in Champagne) came before the Blois, as they are the sons of the eldest daughter

Philip Augustus also had a more final tool : the feudal "commise", allowing him to effectively control all the continental possessions of John. He used it OTL for the northern part, in a better position, he could go for the full lot. Given the Champagne were not the most loyal vassals at hand, he would certainly go that way.
 
The Champagne (Henri in Jerusalem and Thibault in Champagne) came before the Blois, as they are the sons of the eldest daughter

Philip Augustus also had a more final tool : the feudal "commise", allowing him to effectively control all the continental possessions of John. He used it OTL for the northern part, in a better position, he could go for the full lot. Given the Champagne were not the most loyal vassals at hand, he would certainly go that way.

I think Philippe Auguste could give Aquitaine to the Alix of Champagne, eldest daughter of Henri of Champagne provided that he is the one who would chose her husband(a man that he could control)..

I think Philippe could marry Eleanor of Brittany to Louis since Constance is an ally of Philippe..and claim all of the plantagenet inheritance..
 
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