WI WALLIES launched V-1 like missiles towards Germany?

riggerrob

Consider the heavy casualties suffered by RAF Bomber Command and the American 8th Air Force. Also consider their limited accuracy. On a good day they could devastate a suburb but rarely hit the factory they were aiming for.

WI WALLIES launched V-1 like unmanned cruise missiles from the British Iles?
What would they look like?
What type of engines?
What range?
Would they need to launch them from heavy bombers to extend range into the Reich?
What bomb load?
How accurate?
How many could the Luftwaffe intercept?
 

sloreck

Given the Allies had a V-1 clone, the answer is why? Unless they had cruise missile type accuracy, they don't serve much purpose. While they have the advantage of not risking bomber crews, it takes several V-1s to equal the payload of a B-17, B-24, or Lancaster. OK, you can hit a city within range, usually, you can't make any attempt to hit a factory or a railyard. The V-1 made the worst bombing efforts of the Allies look positively stellar. A Fritz-X type weapon has the accuracy, however since the guiding aircraft has to stooge around guiding the weapon in under direct sight which won't work very well in the face of the heavy flak or Luftwaffe fighters.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
What would be the point? I don't know the numbers, but I would imagine that the weight of explosives dropped by the RAF or the USAAF in a single raid on Germany in 1944/45 amounted to more than the entire weight of explosives carried by all the V- rockets fired by Germany during the war.
 

Deleted member 1487

Anaxagoras said:
What would be the point? I don't know the numbers, but I would imagine that the weight of explosives dropped by the RAF or the USAAF in a single raid on Germany in 1944/45 amounted to more than the entire weight of explosives carried by all the V- rockets fired by Germany during the war.
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That would be incorrect given the numbers of V-1s, but your overall point is right that there is no point making super expensive guided bombs when they were able to drop heaps of dumb bombs with their existing bomber fleet.
 

DerWonderWaffles

Given the V-1 has a range of 140-160 miles, I think the Allies attempt to launch any V-1s would be futile unless they secure France and launch them from there.

Remember, the geography of Britain is what V-1s so threatening.

Germany is too far away to be attacked by Allied V-1s. Only way they could do so would be if they made larger, bigger V-1s using strategic materials in their jet engines.

But why do that? Germany has a much greater chance of intercepting them, they would still have less accuracy than German launched V-1s given the distance and having to use strategic metals in their engines would already showcase it to be a waste on its own.

The Wallies were right in making manned bombers considering their role.

So in other words, due to geography, an Allied V-1 would not do much good against Germany initially.
 

Deleted member 1487

DerWonderWaffles said:
Given the V-1 has a range of 140-160 miles, I think the Allies attempt to launch any V-1s would be futile unless they secure France and launch them from there.

Remember, the geography of Britain is what V-1s so threatening.

Germany is too far away to be attacked by Allied V-1s. Only way they could do so would be if they made larger, bigger V-1s using strategic materials in their jet engines.

But why do that? Germany has a much greater chance of intercepting them, they would still have less accuracy than German launched V-1s given the distance and having to use strategic metals in their engines would already showcase it to be a waste on its own.

The Wallies were right in making manned bombers considering their role.

So in other words, due to geography, an Allied V-1 would not do much good against Germany initially.
Click to expand...
The V-1 was air-launchable, so they could and did plan to launch them from afar by air against Japan IOTL:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic-Ford_JB-2
 

DerWonderWaffles

wiking said:
The V-1 was air-launchable, so they could and did plan to launch them from afar by air against Japan IOTL:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic-Ford_JB-2
Click to expand...

But could they manage to do so when travelling to Germany?

The Germans have the advantage of launching from the ground, so there is more room to check for any errors.

The Allies have a smaller room for errors, along with the stress of having to launch the missiles while German fighters are attacking you.
 

Deleted member 1487

DerWonderWaffles said:
But could they manage to do so when travelling to Germany?

The Germans have the advantage of launching from the ground, so there is more room to check for any errors.

The Allies have a smaller room for errors, along with the stress of having to launch the missiles while German fighters are attacking you.
Click to expand...
Sure. The Germans did that with the He111. There will be errors in navigation that will cause issues.
Notice the JB-2 was never used in combat, because it ultimately proved pointless.
 

DerWonderWaffles

wiking said:
Sure. The Germans did that with the He111. There will be errors in navigation that will cause issues.
Notice the JB-2 was never used in combat, because it ultimately proved pointless.
Click to expand...

Do you have any information on the V-1s being launched toward Britain in He 111s? If so how was their accuracy toward ground launched ones? You said there were errors in navigation.
 

Archibald

Banned
And here we go again, the V-1 as the wonder weapon. The thread that never dies.

JB-2 loon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic-Ford_JB-2
Thousands of them to be build and used against Japan during the invasion that never happened.

Technically, the Wallies could have reverse-engineered the V-1 and that what they really did with the JB-2. Except it took them some time.

The V-1 started its flight test program in spring 1942. It took the germans a while to make it work a little farther than crashing into the launch ramp.
Then it took even more time for the RAF scientists to wrap their minds around the V-1, notably the pulsejet and how it worked (not too well, by the way, but at least it was far cheaper than a Metor jet engine).
They got a V-1 through the Polish resistance, and another via Sweden (can't remember exactly, might be a V-2).
The RAF had some difficulties figuring what was the V-1 and what was the V-2, the only thing they were sure of, these things were tested from Peenmunde. So they took no risk and decided to bomb the shit out of the facility.
Operation Hydra
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Hydra_(1943)
 

Archibald

Banned
DerWonderWaffles said:
Do you have any information on the V-1s being launched toward Britain in He 111s? If so how was their accuracy toward ground launched ones? You said there were errors in navigation.
Click to expand...

Errors in navigation was probably the lesser issue faced by the air-launched V-1s.
Consider what follows.
They launched V-1s from a He-111, an aircraft that was completely obsolete by 1944. Carrying a bulky and heavy V-1 under the wing degraded further He-111 performance (I even wonder how could they lift off).
Because the aircraft was so vulnerable, they had to fly by night, otherwise the RAF would have massacred them (nightfighters actually did).
Finally, launching from a moving aircraft degraded a CEP that was already abysmal when launching from a fixed ramp that was (supposedly) oriented in the direction of London.
CEP from a ground-launched V-1 was 10 miles or more. From a He-111 flying at night, trying not to get massacred by Mosquito nightfighters... you guess, it was worse. These things landed all over Great Britain, except on London, or their target. They probably killed some sheeps and dug big holes in the countryside.
 

sloreck

For any missile proceeding under autonomous control without updates (radio control, GPS, etc) accuracy begins with knowing the coordinates of the target and the launch point. Any error in either of these two data points will mean that errors along the way will only be magnified and render the theoretical CEP/accuracy of a system meaningless. This is the problem with the V-1, Loon and similar missiles when air launched. This means hitting an urban area represents the best one can hope for with accuracy, given navigational issues with WWII aircraft. In the case of Japan, where the campaign came to consist of trying to burn entire urban areas, using such inaccurate methods with incendiaries is not unreasonable, except for the fact that it would take quite a few V-1 equivalents to deliver the weight of incendiaries that
 

Archibald

Banned
WI WALLIES launched V-1 like unmanned cruise missiles from the British Iles?
a - What would they look like?
b - What type of engines?
c - What range?
d- Would they need to launch them from heavy bombers to extend range into the Reich?
e - What bomb load?
f - How accurate?
g - How many could the Luftwaffe intercept?
Click to expand...

a - JB-2 loon - Like V-1s probably (it's hard to beat that thing cheapness and simplicity)
b - Reverse-engineered pulsejet, albeit the Vampire / Meteor / P-80 jet engine could do it, it would guzzle less fuel, but it would be an expensive piece of metallurgy wasted for each V-1. Early jet engines were really expensives, albeit the Wallies can probably better afford the expense that a resource-deprived Germany.
c - perhaps a little better than V-1, 500 miles at best
d - V-1s were launched from He-111, so A-20 and A-26, B-25 and B-26 could do it (tight fight, underwing)
then JB-2 was air-dropped from a B-17, so B-24 might do it, too, and of course the B-29 and the B-32 Dominator.
e - 2000 pounds, perhaps 3000 pounds, depends from the engine, and range
f - How accurate ? hard to guess, probably very bad, the guidance system was really a giant PITA before TERCOM in the 60's, followed by GPS (ninja'd by @sloreck !)
g - Can't remember the numbers, but the RAF got three lines of defence a) fighters, b) A2A guns and c) barrage balloons. No reason the Luftwaffe would do otherwise, they had people like Galland and Kamnmhuber
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Kammhuber
They would face the same issues the RAF pilots worried about, that is, not getting killed by the explosion of the flying bomb (better to send into the ground by pushing it with the wingtip).
Bf-109G and late developments of the Fw-190 could probably chase a JB-2 in daylight.
Nightfighters I really don't know - the Ju-88 and Bf-110 would probably be too slow. Me-410 perhaps, He-219 too.
Otherwise two seat Me-262s with radars and a pair of MK-108 guns. Also nightfigher Ar-234, if such project ever existed.
 
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DaveBC

On cost.

If memory serves, the V-2 cost about as much as the Manhattan Project.

The V-1s were cheaper, cents to the dollar really, but the math problem remains.

Given a choice between continuing in the late war years to build out a bomber fleet in which most of the planes come back from any given mission, versus a drone fleet that is DESIGNED to suffer 100% losses on every sortie, I know which one I would consider more cost-effective.

Let's be realistic here. The only time it's remotely cost-effective to put your munitions on cruise or ballistic missiles is when (a) you're going after very specific targets with very precise weapons, or (b) you're going after large strategic targets with extremely powerful bombs, i.e. nuclear bombs.

A V-1 style program was neither of these. It was delivering small bombs against large targets. The math does not add up.

Possibly someone knows the CEP for a V-1 versus Allied bombing ca. 1944-1945? I don't.
 
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