elkarlo
Banned
Yikes. Japan would have non way out of China then. Would 100% be stuck in that quagmire
WI: UK sues for Peace in WWII
- Thread starter Prime Minister
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Yikes. Japan would have non way out of China then. Would 100% be stuck in that quagmire
Derek Pullem
Donor
You would have to have an actual occupation of the British Isles so Sea Lion has to work.
What part of the Royal Navy survives Sea Lion will head to Canada as will the King.
Why would Britian be "fascist" - it might have a fascist puppet installed but at worst it would be like Vichy.
Taking Ireland would not be left to the British - it's too easy an entry for Canada / Free UK / USA to re-enter Europe. It would be Nazi occupied.
I would suspect that Western Desert Force (whatever is left) would either be evacuated to India and then on to Canada via the Pacific or would evacuate to Kenya / South Africa - I think the first is more likely
India would probably be ungovernable in the short term - long term it either cuts a deal with Free UK for its independance or just declares it anyway. What Japan does is crucial here as a threatening Japan may persuade Free India to stay in the UK sphere.
Spain, Portugal and Switzerland are irrelevant provided they toe the German line - which they probably would. Germany would demand (and probably get) bases in the Azores and the Canary islands.
Free Uk would not accept defeat. Whether it could actively continue the war would depend alot on the Dominions and India. With them on its side it is still a significant power
Monroe doctrine may kick in to protect Canada and the Carribean. I'd expect this to be extended to Australia and New Zealand too. South Africa is probably most likley to jump ship and cut a deal with the Germans, particularly if it ends up with both Rhodesias. Italy will absorb Egypt and Sudan and will argue with Germany about Kenya
Derek Pullem
Donor
By 1948 it could have the B-36 which would have the range to hit Berlin from East Coast bases
Derek Pullem
Donor
Prototype flew in 1946 and 21 were delivered in 1948. In a war scenario this could be improved upon.
384 were built in total
They were quite unreliable but could fly in stripped down versions at altitudes above most fighter operating ceilings
As a long distance nuke carrier they would be effective
You're assuming 2 things here:
- The US was destined to fight Germany in the 1940's, which is very unlikely
- The US would want to or be able to develop nukes without a reason to have them and without the help of the international scientific community
Derek Pullem
Donor
The US developed the worlds first modern long range heavy bomber B-17 in 1934-5, prior to Nazi Germany really being a factor. The driver was power projection in the Pacific which the B-36 was very much a logical extension
The B-36 project began in direct response to the possibility that Britain would fall to the Germans and was commissioned prior to US entry into the war
The British "Tube Alloys" project would very much be shared with the Americans
America's reason to fight the Nazis and to develop nukes is EXACTLY the same in this time line as in ours. To be honest they would be even more driven to develop intercontinental bombers and nukes before the Germans developed theirs!
I'm still very unsure about this ... why would an isolationist country want to get involved in a war that is already over on a continent thousands of miles from their shores at a time when they didn't have the military capability in terms of resources, technology or the desire to do so?
Derek Pullem
Donor
Because they did in our time line?
The USA was almost committed in 1941 to hostile neutrality against Germany. This would escalate into a Cold War scenario if britian and Ireland were occupied (as they certainly would be). The presence of Free UK government in Canada and the probable non-recognition of puppet UK governments would also be a factor in souring relations.
You then have the possibility (probability) of Japan's attack which would trigger a military build up in any case.
In fact given the response of the US to USSR after WW2 and find in incredulous that anyone would expect the USA to bury its head in the sand and not rearm
Particularly with wepaons which could deter any invasion of the North American continent i.e. battleships, carriers, long range incontinental bombers and "super bombs"gloster meteor mk3
Banned
ASB.
We shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender.
do any of you even know of this speech in the house of commons. the only way for Britain to sue for peace is Britain bombed back to the stone age, the Luftwaffe does not have the equipment to do that. even if the Germans had nukes in 1940-41 which they don,t we would not surrender.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill#cite_note-centre-beaches-167
We shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender.
do any of you even know of this speech in the house of commons. the only way for Britain to sue for peace is Britain bombed back to the stone age, the Luftwaffe does not have the equipment to do that. even if the Germans had nukes in 1940-41 which they don,t we would not surrender.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill#cite_note-centre-beaches-167
Yes, because not only does Winston Churchill speak for every Englishman to ever live, he is England! Clearly nothing can happen in that country without his express approval.
gloster meteor mk3
Banned
Actually it was NOT the b36 but the b29 that the Americans built to reach Britain. it was ordered when Britain looked like it was going to lose against the NAZI,s. The other upside for the Americans was the amount of bombs it could carry and the range it could go. Even before the atomic bomb America was going to get the B29.
PoeFacedKilla
Banned
im sorry but that was a motivational speech. No country is going to fight until their is no one left sans maybe russia.
Britain really didn't have that much to lose from the war, and eventually the people are gonna want their children to stop dying and their houses to stop getting bombed.
Nothing against Britain or anyone but if my country was invaded, all infrastructure bombed to hell, millions starving and thousands dying on the battle field i would rise up against the president because it would be over with.
Derek Pullem
Donor
Completely wrong I'm afraid.
The spec for the B-29 was originally circulated in 1938. It's prime role was a high altitude version of the B-17
The B-36 was specc'd in the circumstances you described in 1941. From the outset it was intended to be able to bomb Europe from the East Coast and return.
Uh, the usual. WWI-era relics for airpower, puny contingents, and the occasional gunboat showing in the bay.
And before you claim that that won't be enough to work, you should look up the Rashid Ali uprising.
defending against the Italians and Germans in Egypt, and against the Japanese in the Far East, now that's another kettle of fish. But uprisings? No swell.
Uh, Spain starves if the Royal Navy gets pissed. The army in Gibraltar has nothing to do with that - it only takes a bit of the Royal Navy. You don't know this, but Franco did.
Craig_Truglia
Banned
To answer the original post, presuming the UK simply signs an armistice and because it's impossible that the Germans could have conquered the UK, it is highly probable that the Germans would have then attacked Russia.
Being that the western axis out produced the USSR, and were relatively equal in overall manpower, they probably would have achieved Eastern war aims by 1944.
Being that America and the UK don't stand still, what happens next to Germany depends on whether the UK re-enters the war, or more likely, the US and UK aggressively supply the USSR, which results in retaliatory u-boat strikes, which then results in a US declaration of war sometime in 1942 or 1943. By that point, the Germans will still probably win in Russia as the "limitless resources and manpower" of the USSR is more legend than fact, but they will probably be nuked into surrender
If the Germans avoid retaliatory u-boat strikes, which is unlikely given Hitler's megalomania, they probably hang on like a more well-to-do USSR until perhaps the 90s or 2000s, where the society will collapse due to social problems caused by drugs, AIDs and market speculation.
Being that the western axis out produced the USSR, and were relatively equal in overall manpower, they probably would have achieved Eastern war aims by 1944.
Being that America and the UK don't stand still, what happens next to Germany depends on whether the UK re-enters the war, or more likely, the US and UK aggressively supply the USSR, which results in retaliatory u-boat strikes, which then results in a US declaration of war sometime in 1942 or 1943. By that point, the Germans will still probably win in Russia as the "limitless resources and manpower" of the USSR is more legend than fact, but they will probably be nuked into surrender
If the Germans avoid retaliatory u-boat strikes, which is unlikely given Hitler's megalomania, they probably hang on like a more well-to-do USSR until perhaps the 90s or 2000s, where the society will collapse due to social problems caused by drugs, AIDs and market speculation.
Nietzsche
Banned
Britain has forces stationed in the Empire as it is. There are plenty men and material to deal with a bunch of natives getting a wild hair up their ass. They won't have guns, the British, however, very much do.
Someone else already got to this, but there's a good rule of thumb about Italian Africa. They always lose.
Not enough. The Germans are still losing planes and pilots. The British can get that up much longer than the Germans can.
Exactly.
The International Scientific Community was aiding the USA's bomb program when Germany still only had France, Belgium, Holland, Poland, Norway and Denmark under their thrall. What the hell do you think is going to happen if, somehow, Britain falls? The people who were still on the fence are going to jump in.
Isolationist does not equal surrender. The Isolationist groups, all the ones that weren't cover-organizations for the Nazis anyway, generally drew the line at Britain, their fellow Anglo-Saxon power.
You're not helping.
All of this.
Especially this.
Interesting question but everything is depending on WHY the UK asked for negotiations.
It really doesn't have to be every British city pounded to rubble by the invincible Luftwaffe. It might just have to do with economy: Before the war the UK was the world's first service economy with most of their exports coming from "invisible earnings" i.e. brokerage of foreign loans, leverage of currency and all the other magic that the City exels at. Now, in 1940 most of the foreign assets that has been earned by that export has been sold off - in a pure fire sale as there are not that many customers for Argenitinan railway stock, at least not at reasonable prices. And there are very few new syndicated loans coming in to a stock exchange in flames.
Meanwhile the currency reserves are raped by cash and carry sales from US ports and the Exchequer should start asking questions as to whether this war is actually ruining the country. Questions asked with answers (predictably) provided by WSQ along the lines of "shut up and get the materiel."
So, if someone starts contemplating present and future debt and decides that the British Empire can only survive if they a) default massively on their debts some time in the future and that will mainly screw the dominions as the Americans are only delivering for cash or b) come to some sort of an agreement with this peculiar Austrian corporal, I guess you could see some farily serious discussions during the winter of 1940-41.
Perhaps even late 41 but by then the Germans have whipped the Russians (apparently) the Empire (again) in Greece and North Africa and might not be in any form of listening mode anymore.
Anyway, it would be very interesting if someone gamed the consequences of a peace in Europe in 1941 for both the British possessions in Asia and for their balance of payments in 1942.
It really doesn't have to be every British city pounded to rubble by the invincible Luftwaffe. It might just have to do with economy: Before the war the UK was the world's first service economy with most of their exports coming from "invisible earnings" i.e. brokerage of foreign loans, leverage of currency and all the other magic that the City exels at. Now, in 1940 most of the foreign assets that has been earned by that export has been sold off - in a pure fire sale as there are not that many customers for Argenitinan railway stock, at least not at reasonable prices. And there are very few new syndicated loans coming in to a stock exchange in flames.
Meanwhile the currency reserves are raped by cash and carry sales from US ports and the Exchequer should start asking questions as to whether this war is actually ruining the country. Questions asked with answers (predictably) provided by WSQ along the lines of "shut up and get the materiel."
So, if someone starts contemplating present and future debt and decides that the British Empire can only survive if they a) default massively on their debts some time in the future and that will mainly screw the dominions as the Americans are only delivering for cash or b) come to some sort of an agreement with this peculiar Austrian corporal, I guess you could see some farily serious discussions during the winter of 1940-41.
Perhaps even late 41 but by then the Germans have whipped the Russians (apparently) the Empire (again) in Greece and North Africa and might not be in any form of listening mode anymore.
Anyway, it would be very interesting if someone gamed the consequences of a peace in Europe in 1941 for both the British possessions in Asia and for their balance of payments in 1942.